Optics vs Irons up close. (disclaimer have to admit Kurt was right)

[Alaskapopo]

A question came up with a fellow shooter about which was faster up close rifles or pistols. I argued a carbine is faster regardless of range. The other guy argued the opposite. So he suggested we test it at the range. I set up 3 targets at 7 yards. Each target was 3 yards apart. I shot a variety of guns on this simple course over the last 3 days. Weather was horrible. But it was still fun.

Here are the stats I accumulated.

5.56 AR's

Colt 6920 Aimpoint (Flash hider no comp)

TIME

1. 2.87

2. 3.08

3. 2.79

4. 2.75

5. 2.87

Average 2.87

HITS

T1 8A 2C

T2 9A 1C

T3 8A 2C

Total hits 25A 5C

GUN Noveske N4 carbine Aimpoint T1 used.

TIME

1. 2.69

2. 3.07

3. 2.58

4. 2.58

5. 2.29 (one shot not fired so I am not averaging it in for the time)

Average time for first 4 strings 2.73 seconds.

HITS

T1 8 Alpha 2 Charlie

T2 9 Alpha 1 Charlie

T3 4 Alpha 5 Charlie (one shot was not fired)

TOTAL HITS: 21 A 8C (one round not fired)

N4 just ACOG (TA33 fixed 3 power)

TIME

1. 2.64

2. 2.67

3. 2.80

4. 2.59

5. 2.63

Average time 2.67

HITS

T1 8A 2C

T2 7A 3C

T3 8A 2C

Total hits : 23 A 7C

HITS

T1 6 A 3C 1B

T2 7 A 2C 1D

T3 9A 1C

TOTAL 22 A’s 7 B&C’s 1 D hit

Gun Larue Stealth Rifle Swarovski Z6i set at 1x

TIME

1. 2.52

2. 2.59

3. 2.50

4. 2.56

5. 2.69

Average Time 2.57

HITS

T1 9A 1C

T2 10A

T3 8A 2C

TOTAL Hits: 27 A 3 C

Gun Saber Defense AR15 A2 (IRONS)

1. 2,57

2. 2.44

3. 2.49

4. 2.62

5. 2.66

Average time 2,56

HITS

T1 9A 1C

T2 9A 1D

T3 7A 3C

TOTAL hits: 25 A 4 C 1D

.308's

Gun AR10 carbine AImpoint M4 2moa dot no muzzle brake just a huge flash hider.

1. 3.17

2. 2.88

3. 2.84

4. 2.72

5. 2.83

Average time 2.89

HITS

T1 4 A 2C 3D 1M

T2 9A 1C

T3 8A 2C

Total hits: 21 A 5 C 3D 1 M (miss)

(Did so bad the first day I tried the AR10 again. I had to slow down to get my hits)

AR10 12-1-09

Time

1. 3.95

2. 4.04

3. 3.42

4. 3.22

5. 3.33

6. 3.03

Average: 3.50

Hits

T1 10 A 2 C

T2 11 A 1 C

T3 8 A 4C

Total 29A 7 C

AK47's

Gun Saiga AK47 Reddot (Aimpoint ML2)

1. 2.91

2. 3.28

3. 2.71

4. 2.71

5. 2.67

Average time 2.86

HITS

T1 9A 1C

T2 10A

T3 9A 1C

Total hits: 28 A 2C

MAK 90 Krebs (Apature rear sight)

TIME:

1. 2.88

2. 2.87

3. 2.89

4. 2.08

5. 3.05

Average time 2.75

HITS

T1 9A 1C

T2 10A

T3 7A 3C

TOTAL hits 26A 4C

PISTOLS

GUN STI Edge in 40sw. My limited gun for USPSA. Caliber 40sw.

TIME

1. 2.88

2. 3.01

3. 3.10

4. 3.10

5. 2.70

Average time for all 5 strings is 2.95

Glock 17

1. 3.38

2. 3.13

3. 3.37

4. 3.46

5. 3.15

Average 3.30

HITS

T1 9A 1C

T2 5A 3C 2D

T3 7A 1C 1D 1 Miss

Total 21A 5C 3D 1Miss

CONCLUSION.

I have come to some conclusions. For me at least the rifle is always faster and more accurate than a pistol except in the case of the AR10. I had to slow down to control the recoil with it. But at the .223 and 7.62x39 level of recoil the rifles were better. I affirmed that a muzzle brake does work. My Colt times with the Vortex were worse than all my other 5.56 guns and they all wear muzzle brakes. Even my AK times were better and they have muzzle brakes. I learned that Irons at 7 yards are faster or at least as fast as any of my optics. A red dot sight helps in low light but its not faster in normal conditions. I still recommend optics but I don't believe the hype that they always make you faster. It depends on the range I believe. I had similar results in an experiment I did a few years back testing irons and various optics on one rifle. The irons were a tad faster at 15 yards. They were slower for me at 25, 50 and 100. But for close quarters work I believe Irons give up nothing in the way of speed in normal lighting conditions. Kurt was right about Irons being fast up close. There I said it. Like most type A personalities I hate admitting when I am wrong.

VIDEOS of yours truly.

MAK 90

Saiga AK

(Shooting)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFbYB55mis (targets)

AR10 first day when I was faster but sucked on hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMyOusJghBw

AR10 on the second day (when I slowed down a bit)

Colt 6920 Aimpoint

Noveske (using Aimpoint T1 in Larue off set mount)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7DKYdU6Q8

Noveske (using ACOG)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksh8WqmXNIY

Larue Stealth with Swarovski

Saber Defense A2 (Irons)

Shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721rZXLU1dg Targets

STI EDGE

Glock

Edited December 2, 2009 by Alaskapopo

[Jesse Tischauser]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing!

[Pezco]

Patrick,

Is the Z6i a good scope for 3-Gun?

[Bryan 45]

Well done! I think what this really shows is that for short range close targets the shooter has more influence on the outcome than the type of firearm used. And while all times were very close to each other, for any sort of situation other than our game, there's no substitute for a 7.62x51.

[Shay1911]

Nice write up! (That does not look like Florida )

[Alaskapopo]

Patrick,

Is the Z6i a good scope for 3-Gun?

I think so. I have done pretty good with it. My best times in the above exercise were also with that scope and gun.