To FTDR or not to FTDR

[Bob Hostetter]

Round Gun states that it is the Match Director's duty to back or support the SO. In the real world it is not quite that simple...........

The MD's (and the rest of the staff) job is to provide a safe and fair venue for his/her paying customer to compete in. If we can set aside safety issues for a moment, lets discuss providing a fair venue. The purpose of the staff is to ensure that all of the competitors have a chance to shoot the same courses of fire and to accurately record their scores. The stage description (or briefing) provided outline's the expectation's and goals of each course of fire including any limitations or restrictions as to how the competitor can shoot the stage.

The SO's job (once again setting the safety issues to the side) is to ensure the course of fire is shot in accordance with the course description (and sanctioning org rules), and the resulting scores are properly recorded. If there are any violation of the rules or the course description restrictions, the SO would also record those. No where is the SO's job description is it listed that it is his/her job to punish a competitor for doing something wrong, instead, simply to accurately record what happened.

The MD's job is to ensure that the SO's, and the rest of the staff, are properly performing their jobs, and to either provide or arrange any help that is needed. That help does include suporting any decisions the SO makes as long as they are the proper decision's. Ultimately ensuring the right call is made is more important then providing moral support for a staff member. It has never occurred to me that a SO (or a RO) would want the MD to support his/her call if it was wrong. An SO's primary motivation should be to make every call for every competitor perfectly and if he/she needed to have someone like the MD take a look at the situation to ensure it's the right call, even he/she should be thankfull for the resourses. What happens sometimes is both the competitor and the SO have ego wrapped up in the call (especially if the SO is also the stage designer) and this can sometimes cloud the issues. That is when fresh, uninvolved eyes can be of great help in making the right decision.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Round Gun states that it is the Match Director's duty to back or support the SO. In the real world it is not quite that simple...........

The MD's (and the rest of the staff) job is to provide a safe and fair venue for his/her paying customer to compete in. If we can set aside safety issues for a moment, lets discuss providing a fair venue. The purpose of the staff is to ensure that all of the competitors have a chance to shoot the same courses of fire and to accurately record their scores. The stage description (or briefing) provided outline's the expectation's and goals of each course of fire including any limitations or restrictions as to how the competitor can shoot the stage.

The SO's job (once again setting the safety issues to the side) is to ensure the course of fire is shot in accordance with the course description (and sanctioning org rules), and the resulting scores are properly recorded. If there are any violation of the rules or the course description restrictions, the SO would also record those. No where is the SO's job description is it listed that it is his/her job to punish a competitor for doing something wrong, instead, simply to accurately record what happened.

The MD's job is to ensure that the SO's, and the rest of the staff, are properly performing their jobs, and to either provide or arrange any help that is needed. That help does include suporting any decisions the SO makes as long as they are the proper decision's. Ultimately ensuring the right call is made is more important then providing moral support for a staff member. It has never occurred to me that a SO (or a RO) would want the MD to support his/her call if it was wrong. An SO's primary motivation should be to make every call for every competitor perfectly and if he/she needed to have someone like the MD take a look at the situation to ensure it's the right call, even he/she should be thankfull for the resourses. What happens sometimes is both the competitor and the SO have ego wrapped up in the call (especially if the SO is also the stage designer) and this can sometimes cloud the issues. That is when fresh, uninvolved eyes can be of great help in making the right decision.

Since I have done so and will now do it again, would you please state your experience level in IDPA that supports this opinion?

I have competed in IDPA since 1999, I am a SO and SO I, I have officiated in state and regional matches in three states multiple times. Unfortunately, I have never been able to afford the time to go the Nationals. The joy of being self employed.

At no time did I say I expected a Match Director to support a wrong call. At no time did I say that it is the Match Director's duty to back or support the SO. That is something you or someone else has added to my intent. Intent is something you need to be very careful of when posting to an internet forum and when making subjective calls in any sport. Any SO needs to be able to back up what he/she calls or does not call and when those facts are in place, any Match Director worth his salt backs up his staff.

This discussion, as most do with IDPA, is never going to be settled in the minds of everyone. When I make calls, I go by the book. I am not sure in my mind a violation occurred, I make no call. With the SOs in my own club I have certified, I spend time with them at each match and make constructive comments off the line. When they make or do not make a call I disagree with I explain it to them away from shooters so next time they will have another tool in their tool box. I also suggest new SOs work state or regional matches as scoring SOs and see what it is all about.

The other thing you need to remember, the guy with the timer may not have been to an SO course. He may just be a helpful shooter that is just doing his best.

EDIT: Took a minute to correct my spelling

Edited July 21, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Bob Hostetter]

I didn't realize you wanted that infomation from me but if you do.........

I started competing in IDPA in 97 or 98 I believe (I started in USPSA in 83)

I am currently classified as Master in CDP, ESP, and SSP

I have been a MD or RM at about 6 or 7 Sanctioned Matches

I have been a SO at about 300 local/sanctioned matches

I regularly compete in Calif, Arizona, and Nevada

I have either ran or co-ran a couple IDPA clubs

I regularly assist at our local club which runs 24 clubs matches (minu of 8 stages per match) and 1 sanctioned match a year averaging over 150 shooter's a month.

I am a Safety Officer

I am a Safety Officer Instructor

I am the Area Coordinator for the state of California

Edited July 21, 2008 by Bob Hostetter

[steel1212]

I've gotten all the info I need. It seems the FTDR is a subjective call. While somebody pointed me to the FTDR in the book I noticed that round dumbing is a FTDR offense. Granted, round dumping is cheating but how can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that somebody did it? I don't care if they are down 0 with 3 shots on the target how do you know that they didn't think they pulled one, short of over hearing them say they where going to do it before they shot.

I'll leave it up to the mods if they want to close this up or not as it seems we just keep repeating ourselves and have to prove things to one another.

[Nik Habicht]

The tone of some of the last few posts suggests that this thread is spiraling towards a back and forth between entrenched positions. It also appears that we may have answered the original question. Hence, I'm closing it down....

.....if anyone has anything new and constructive to add, feel free to drop me a pm, or pm your favorite moderator....