Witnes Elite Match - 9mm or 38 Super

[skip62]

Hello, 1st time poster, long time lurker. Great forum, I've always found the info I was looking for, so I never had to post...lol

I have a 38 Super Open gun that I use for steel. I'm looking for a limited type gun for some of the other local club matches that don't allow Comps or Optics. I'm cheap, so I was looking to only have to reload for 1 caliber, 38 Super, but realized that 9mm would still be a little less money.

So the questions are:

1) which is generally more reliable?

2) is one generally more accurate than the other?

Thanks

[Jeff686]

I've heard from a few people that have gotten the 9mm working in their Tanfoglio gold team. However, there are a lot of reports of nose-dives and other feeding problems with the 9mm in the Tanfoglio magazines.

I've heard that the easiest is 38 supercomp. I can get 23 rounds in my 140mm mags, and have never had any feeding or reliability problems.

If you already load 38 super, and don't mind being 'minor' in limited class, stick with 38 super.

[AZGunut]

Hi there,

I just picked up a Witness Elite match in 38 Super from a customer of mine on the cheap (Is the older version with the "Bo-Mar" type rear sight. Now I am a huge fan of super and that is the main reason I bought it because of the fact that it was a super. As you probably know the only downside to the super is brass cost. Now I have tons of brass so it made my choice easy, but it is a better feeding cartride in the large frame, plus for me is easier to tailor loads to. I say buy the super!

[Carlos]

I'd go with the 9mm. Brass is easier to find, and with the power factor being so low, the 9Major is here to stay (check out the trend reported in USPSA's magazine, Front Sight about the trend towards 9Major.

As far as accuracy, the Camp Perry match pistols in 9mm are super accurate at 50 yards; NONE of them are .38 super. 9mm is plenty accurate for our sport.

[Dave Gundry]

The 9mm Match's make great L10 minor guns, but most folks can not get the 9mm to feed out of a fully loaded mag in the large frame guns. You'd almost have to go with the super to have a chance at reliability.

Have you thought about a 40? While the ammo would cost more, it will be a much more versatile caliber.

[BritinUSA]

+1 with the .38 Super... You will be shooting lighter loads than you would with an Open gun, so that .38 Super brass will last a really long time. You may get 20+ reloads out of it... maybe even more.

The reliability is the big thing here, plus the fact that you can use the same reloading setup (make sure you remember to adjust the powder measure :-)).

You can get all the magazines you want from Henning or just get the smaller base pads for your existing magazines, his new pads are awesome.

[skip62]

Thanks for all the great reply's. I was kinda hoping 38 Super would be the predominant answer, I think it's an awesome caliber, and I probably don't have to do anything to switch between guns since they will both be lighter loads. My open gun is only for steel, it's had a hard life...lol Our club doesn't recognize major or minor, so that isn't a concern or I would go with 40.

Thanks again for the great responses.

[jam-man]

I own a 9mm Match and it took a little work, but it now runs realiable.

I found that the nose diving only occured with the 9mm mags with the spacers in the front. The 9mm mags without the spacers run 100%. As anyone else experinced this? Logic would seem the opposite would be the case, not sure why this is.

Is the 9mm mag without the spacer, a 38 super mag with 9mm stamped on it?

BTW the only time I get nose down dives with the spacer mags is when I am running HP or put 18 rounds in the mag. If I load 17 the mags with the spacers run 100% with cast or FMJ.

I am also running an 8 pound spring, I have experinced in the past were going to a hevery recoil spring in a 9mm 1911 solved nose down feeding problems. But the Witness runs great with the 8 pound spring which speaks to the excellent design of the weapon.

One thing nice about 9mm is leaving IDPA matches with a boat load of brass! I have been to matches were I am the only guy saving it.

As anyone found a OAL the Witness match seems to like? I have shorten my rounds down to 1.12 and the gun seems a little more accurate.

As anyone tried any of the 22 cal conversion kits or converted to another caliber? Heck you could own a 9mm and 38 super for $200 more dollars. I saw a 38 super upper listed on gunbroker for $150.00. If the mags are the same this could be a nice package.

Good luck with what ever caliber you choose, so far over all I have been well pleased with my purchase.

[Jeff686]

Hey Jam-man!

I tried putting 9mm in my 38 super magazines. They didn't work with more than 5-6 rounds in the magazine. All nose-diving. I'm not sure what, if any, the differences between the 9mm and 38 super magazines are. I was using a Gram's follower, designed for 38, so maybe that caused some problems.

Also, I wouldn't consider 17 rounds in the magazine successful. With the right base/spring/follower, I can get 23 in the 38 Super magazines. That's a significant advantage, especially if you are stuck scoring minor in Limited USPSA.

[skip62]

jam-man, you said it took a little work, was it just the discover of the difference in mags? or was there something else you had to do? I've got my buddy interested and he wants a 9mm for sure.

Jeff686, what do you have to do to get 23 rounds crammed in there? That's alot of ammo...

[Jeff686]

jam-man, you said it took a little work, was it just the discover of the difference in mags? or was there something else you had to do? I've got my buddy interested and he wants a 9mm for sure.

Jeff686, what do you have to do to get 23 rounds crammed in there? That's alot of ammo...

Easy. Get the Grams follower and spring: http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/magparts.html

Then add the H-141 base pad: http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/magpads.html

I'm never exactly clear how many coils I'm supposed to buy. Just ask the store owner, Henning, he's a good guy. He'll even assemble and tune complete mags for you, if you need.

His description says 24 rounds. I can fit 24 in mine, but they won't let the magazeine catch with the slide closed. The only way I'd use 24 is if the stage started with the gun on a table with the slide locked open.

Maybe I'll be able to use 24 after the springs take a set.

On, on the 9mm: rumor has it that the small frame tanfoglio's in 9mm have a great magazine setup. EAA doesn't import the small frames right now. The difference between large and small is ONLY the size of the magazine hole. All exterior dimensions are identical. I think CZ makes a 9mm with the smaller frame size that can make a good open gun... but it will cost more.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Jeff686

[skip62]

Awesome info Jeff, thank you

[jam-man]

jam-man, you said it took a little work, was it just the discover of the difference in mags? or was there something else you had to do? I've got my buddy interested and he wants a 9mm for sure.

Jeff686, what do you have to do to get 23 rounds crammed in there? That's alot of ammo...

Here is a post I posted some time back when I first got the Witness.

I own an EAA Witness that I have been building for the last two months. It is the Witness Match and I purchased it mainly to use during ISPC matches, which I hpe to start shooting 4 or 5 matches a year. I mainly shoot IDPA matches.

Well to make a long story short the gun is solid. It is a real shooter to, very very accurate. That being said here is were my complaints begin.

First they stuck junk sights on the new Witness Matches. Use to have the super sights, now they have some awful rear sights that you cannot pick up the front sight. To make matters worse the front sight is sets so low it is almost impossible to pick up. Decided they had to go, unfortunately no front or rear sight is made for the slide cut used! Even called EAA to see if anything was made to fit the sight cut, not only did the gunsmith say nothing was made he even bragged about how nice the new sights were. I respectfully disagreed and let it go at that. So I had to hand fight a Novak cut to the rear and a CZ competition sight to the front.

Finally was satisfied with sights and decided to smooth out the trigger a little. The trigger return spring broke when I was reinstalling it. So I called EAA to order a new one. I asked the sales rep and the gun smith if it used the same trigger return spring as the double actions guns and the both assured me it did. I ordered two, because some were in the back of my mind I knew they would be wrong. When it arrived it was wrong and I had to clip it and bend it to make it work.

Got the trigger completed ready to move forward with some mag purchases. Called everywhere included EAA, they stated they hoped some would arrive with this month’s shipment of parts, but they did not know for sure. I decided to give up on EAA and located some in a small store in VA, they were they same part number and I thought I got lucky. Ordered them and they arrived in two days. Thought I might have the Witness set up and ready to give it a test run at the local IDPA match in the ESP divisions.

Well took the Witness out for a little practice and to see if it would run with the new mags. They would not even lock into the gun! The mag plates were to big. Had to sand them down and finally got them to seat in the gun. Next, I discovered the new mags would lock back with one round left in them every time. First I discovered the springs in the mags had two extra coils. Clipped them and made them the same length as the ones in the mag that came with the gun. It helped, however did not solve the problem 100%. I had to reshape the follower and they finally worked.

So after reshaping, clipping, custom fitting every part I got the Witness to run and it did do well. I just cannot understand how a company can make such a nice weapon and then use junk for sight and mags and not even have extra parts avilable.

Warn your budy about the sights and mags, other than that the Witness Match is a solid solid platform.

Also, it took a good 500 rounds to get my Witness to smooth out. I think the Witness will run when new, but to realize their full protential there is a break in period.

BTW I shoot mainly IDPA and when I do get the chance to shoot an IPSC match I plan on shooting limited 10. (Hope to try it out at the local ISPC match in 2 weeks!) So going from 17 rounds to 23 is not a real advantage for me. I do like having all my guns run 100% with HP's. The Witness Match makes a heck of gun for home defense.

I am still curious if the 38 super mags or the same as the 9mm mags. I wonder if a stock 38 super mag will run in the 9mm?

[skip62]

Thanks for digging that up for me. All the tweaking that needs to be done has me a little gun shy. Not because of your post, I had that before. I still have a frame from a TZ75 I experimented with back in the early 90's and I'm still a little nervous because the experience wasn't all that great. Getting blown out at the Nationals because the gun keeps jamming is not fun. I switched back to 1911 single stack and just practiced more to beat the local guys and there double stacks...lol I placed much better the next year. I think I'm ready to try again. I know there's a lot more info than when I tried and some better parts to be had.

Thanks again.