Reloading recipies, what can be changed...

[steveknapp]

So I'm getting started with this. I've got some plastic bins full of cleaned brass, and I'm going to order a Dillon 550 from Brian as it seems like the right choice.

But I know when it shows up I'm going to want to use it. So I'm also trying to get ready to reload. I've reloaded shotgun shells, but never brass. When I started with the shotshells I picked a random load, bought the needed components, and made a bunch of them. Only after I proved that I was consistent and they went "boom" not "kaboom" did I start ordering different wads and the like in an attempt to create different loads.

In the shotgun world I've learned is that every component is different. If you've got a load for a Remington hull, with a CCI primer, and a Claybusters wad, you can't sub out any of those components.

I understand powder a bit more since I asked some questions in this forum. But now I'm faced with the other components. When I look at reloading data it lists not only powder and primer, but some also list case, and bullet manufacturer. But when I read the forums it seems pretty open, but most folks test/chrono their rounds.

My plan was to tinker later, get a chrono later... But for now just make some rounds that fire. "boom" not "kaboom".

But I'm left wondering what I can sub.

Cases? 9mm cases should be pretty standard right?

Does primer matter much? IF I'm not working my way up to max loads, can I sub primers as needed? My local shop thought CCI and Winchester were OK to sub as long as I wasn't going to use a max load I had developed and tested myself.

Can I use any FMJ bullet in any load that calls for a FMJ bullet? In other words, any differences in bullet brands assuming I seat them to the right OAL?

CMJ in place of FMJ?

LRN bullets have different ballistics, so they seem to get their own loads, same for JHP?

For the near term my plan was to load up my random cases with the Load Alliant suggests for Bullseye, using CCI primers instead of winchester and Hornady 115gn FMJ bullets.

Looking forward, I'd order up 1000 from Precision Delta but stick to the CCI primers if I can. I also need to see if any of the ranges I shoot at allow me to use a chrono. Anyone use a chrono at an indoor range? My understanding is they need to be about 10' downrange, right?

Also, should I always load 5-10% down from the books until I get the chrono?

Thanks much!

Steve

[lynn jones]

Cases? 9mm cases should be pretty standard right? no but close enough, for minor. major 9mm the cases are a little more critical

Does primer matter much? IF I'm not working my way up to max loads, can I sub primers as needed? My local shop thought CCI and Winchester were OK to sub as long as I wasn't going to use a max load I had developed and tested myself.

i use mainly winchester primers only, some primers cases are softer and easier to set off. a lot of people like federal for revolver shooting.

Can I use any FMJ bullet in any load that calls for a FMJ bullet? In other words, any differences in bullet brands assuming I seat them to the right OAL?the profile is not as critical as the weight of the bullet

CMJ in place of FMJ? yes

LRN bullets have different ballistics, so they seem to get their own loads, same for JHP? lead bullet are softer and require less powder than jhp or any jacketed bullet

For the near term my plan was to load up my random cases with the Load Alliant suggests for Bullseye, using CCI primers instead of winchester and Hornady 115gn FMJ bullets. this is were you should do a search on these forums to find a nice load

Looking forward, I'd order up 1000 from Precision Delta but stick to the CCI primers if I can. I also need to see if any of the ranges I shoot at allow me to use a chrono. Anyone use a chrono at an indoor range? My understanding is they need to be about 10' downrange, right?precision delta bullets are a good start. 10' sound right.

Also, should I always load 5-10% down from the books until I get the chrono? sounds good to me

good luck!

lynn

[G-ManBart]

Cases? 9mm cases should be pretty standard right?

Does primer matter much? IF I'm not working my way up to max loads, can I sub primers as needed? My local shop thought CCI and Winchester were OK to sub as long as I wasn't going to use a max load I had developed and tested myself.

Can I use any FMJ bullet in any load that calls for a FMJ bullet? In other words, any differences in bullet brands assuming I seat them to the right OAL?

CMJ in place of FMJ?

LRN bullets have different ballistics, so they seem to get their own loads, same for JHP?

For the near term my plan was to load up my random cases with the Load Alliant suggests for Bullseye, using CCI primers instead of winchester and Hornady 115gn FMJ bullets.

Looking forward, I'd order up 1000 from Precision Delta but stick to the CCI primers if I can. I also need to see if any of the ranges I shoot at allow me to use a chrono. Anyone use a chrono at an indoor range? My understanding is they need to be about 10' downrange, right?

Also, should I always load 5-10% down from the books until I get the chrono?

Thanks much!

Steve

Lynn already gave you great advice. A couple of additional details.

You can generally sub primers of the same type such as small pistol from Win for Fed or Fed for CCI etc...if you're not at the very limit of pressures, this shouldn't cause a problem

Cases do vary a bit in their case capacity. Lower capacity increases pressure and vice-versa. This will cause pressure variations that lead to velocity variations and less accuracy. If you sort by headstamp you'll get the most consistent pressure, veolocity and accuracy. A load that's on the edge with one case can be over it with another brand. If you're using reasonable loads this shouldn't be a problem.

Bullet weight is more important than shape/style etc. The reason the bullet profile becomes important is that when you seat two different bullet profiles to the same overall length, one will take up more case volume than the other. The bullet that takes up more case volume will cause higher pressures. Generally speaking FMJ/TMJ/CMJ of the same weight are going to have pretty similar profiles and will take up about the same case volume, so it's not a huge concern unless you're close to pressure limits to start with or you happen to find a bullet with a radically different profile. Frequently, JHP's will take up more case volume than an FMJ of the same weight....it's not all the time, but it's pretty common.

You can use a chronograph indoors, but they normally don't work with flourescent lights (they actually pulsate and this throws off the chrono). Most chrono companies offer a solution to this...an attachment, different sensors etc that you can purchase and be able to use them indoors regardless of the lighting installed. Each chronograph will come with instructions that give you proper distances, but 10' is usually in the ballpark for pistol ammo. I normally use 15' with mine and this has worked fine when I've gone to big matches and had my ammo checked, but I doubt 10' would have been a problem. R,

[steveknapp]

Thanks for all the help!

Bullet weight is more important than shape/style etc. The reason the bullet profile becomes important is that when you seat two different bullet profiles to the same overall length, one will take up more case volume than the other. The bullet that takes up more case volume will cause higher pressures. Generally speaking FMJ/TMJ/CMJ of the same weight are going to have pretty similar profiles and will take up about the same case volume, so it's not a huge concern unless you're close to pressure limits to start with or you happen to find a bullet with a radically different profile.

I was reading some reloading manuals last night and was thinking about OAL. Precision Delta does not have reloading data. But I had a thought... If I have a known bullet (say the Hornady TMJ's I bought from my local shop) with a full recipe, and I sub the precision delta bullet. I'd just measure the length of both, then adjust the OAL of the round to reflect the new bullet being longer/shorter. Keeping the case volume the same. Does that make sense? I'm guessing they will be almost identical and I'm worrying over nothing. And I understand right, as long as the case volume and bullet mass are constant, the profile does not matter as much.

This does mean that f I change from 115gn to 125gn I'll need to reset the dies on the press, the 125 may require the bullet seating die to move up a wee bit, right?

I understand at the lower pressures I'll be loading to at first this is not as critical. Actually one of the things I noticed looking at the reloading data in the loadbooks "one book one cartridge" guide is that the powder charge ranges (starting to max) have a lot of overlap. If nothing else that put my mind at ease.

[David Sinko]

I also started my reloading career with the shotshell, and that was almost 25 years ago when I was in high school. I load birdshot and buckshot for the matches, but I have discovered that successfully casting and loading your own slugs (and getting them to perform well) is the greatest achievement in handloading.

Fortunately, metallic cartridges are not so complicated. I have found that 9mm is not difficult at all. But there are a few pitfalls. The only problematic brass I have encountered are A-merc and L Y (I believe the latter is Norinco), and these two headstamps absolutely must be thrown away on sight. Everything else I have tried works fine. Cast bullets will need a few less tenths of a grain less powder than jacketed. Plated works fine, but do NOT crimp too much. You will either end up swaging the bullet down so much that it won't engage the rifling or if the rifling is sharp it can cut through the plating. I have learned all of the above the hard way, from experience.

OAL can have a dramatic effect on performance, but that depends on the characteristics of the powder you use. You will need to be VERY cautious if you use Clays, for example. I do not work with any other powder that has a disaster factor like Clays.

I suggest you take up bullet casting. A few days ago I tried to order some molds from Midway and they were all backordered. Times are getting tough and I no longer want to bother with guns that won't shoot cast bullets. If you have a Glock, get an aftermarket barrel and have it fit properly.

Reloading is the way to go!

Dave Sinko

[NC Shooter]

Steve,

In your last post you state: "This does mean that f I change from 115gn to 125gn I'll need to reset the dies on the press, the 125 may require the bullet seating die to move up a wee bit, right?"

I would like to add the following: If you change from a 115 gr bullet to a 125 gr you will want to reduce the powder charge accordingly, again just refer to your reloading manual. Second; Yes, it is likely that you will need to re-adjust your seating depth (outward) for the heavier bullet. Watch your Overall Cartridge Length so that you do not exceed internal magazine dimentions. Your manual will have that dimention specified as well. If you get to a point that your OAL will not allow you to seat out any further as with even heavier bullets reduce your powder charge per your manual. Good luck,

Post again with both successes or further questions.

Ken

[steveknapp]

Thanks for all the help Ken!

Is it safe to assume too much case volume is bad as well? Otherwise you would always just seat the bullet to the SAAMI (sp?) max length spec and be done with it right?

The shotshell press has been moved a bit to the side on what's become my reloading bench. The Dillon should be here soon as it shipped Friday. I've got 200 primers, tons of cleaned brass, some Alliant Bullseye, 100 Hornady 115CMJ's on the shelf and 2000 Precision Delta Bullets on the way. I need to brace my loading bench a bit, but that's a simple job. Not that I'm looking forward to giving this a whirl or anything..

[NC Shooter]

Steve,

Yes you are absolutely correct!

"Is it safe to assume too much case volume is bad as well? Otherwise you would always just seat the bullet to the SAAMI (sp?) max length spec and be done with it right?"

Too much of an air gap in a cartridge will create an inconsistant load - This was the driver for the development of the the 7.62X51 or .308 Win round. Improvments in propellant powders from 1900 to 1955 caused a significant reduction in powder charge in the 30-06 round, so engineers just necked down the case to compensate and voila a new cartridge is born.

Modern metalic cartridge manufacture is a delicate balance. some rounds perform best with a compressed powder charge. while others are more consistant with just a full case fill. Your mileage will vary because of all of the variables built into everything from ambient temperature, humidity, altitude, your gun, etc, etc. You get the picture. Until you are satisfied with your loads and always while you are doing any load development keep meticlous records of every variable that you can. The rewards will become obvious very quickly and you will spend less time duplicating superior results.

This forum is a fantastic resource. There are many threads pertaining to reloading and the search function is your best friend. Good luck and keep us posted.

Regards,

Ken

[steveknapp]

Good luck and keep us posted.

An update! After some various distractions and delays I got the press, got the press setup, and gave things a whirl. I tried both the Dillon resizing die and the lee undersized die on some of the bulging brass I had picked up. The Dillon die seems to do an OK job for me.

Precision Delta is out of stock on 9mm, I found after waiting 2 weeks for my order, so I canceled and ordered from Montana Gold as well as picked up 300 Winchester from Cabelas (not a bad price!).

My first 100 rounds (115gn JHP w/ 6gn of Power Pistol) all went boom in the right way. Accuracy seemed as good as I've seen with the M&P9, and at some point in shooting off the 100 I started doing some drills to focus on speed. I looked all all the spent brass, and the pressure signs seemed less than that of the factory stuff. For example the primers normally bulge a good bit into the space around the firing pin, but was less so on the reloads.

I noticed a difference in the feel of the gun, and the sound. So I can see where some time could be spent finding the "perfect load". But at the same time, I shot well with this.

My chrono did show up, but wasn't what I wanted (Chrony's web site states features that aren't supported, frustrating, I should have just gotten the remote "master" to start), but it's being exchanged. So I didn't get a chance to get data on the rounds. I also loaded up some series from low to high with the power pistol, and will do the same for Unique and Bullseye.

A couple questions came up:

- Is there a good way to unload the primer magazine on the 550? Other than just making more rounds? I just left it loaded for now.

- How straight does the bullet need to be in the bell before seating? I do my best to get it in there straight, but the seating die seems to get it lined up even if it's off a wee bit. I looked at the brass and it didn't EVER seem to seat crooked. Even adding a bit more bell, it just seemed to sit deeper, but still could be a bit crooked. Figured this is normal?

[DogmaDog]

A couple thoughts:

1) You'll always reduce pressure by loading a cartridge longer. Load close to the max length for you gun (but leave a few thousandths, as you'll probably see some variation...I get +/- 0.002 or so on my Dillon 550)

2) I haven't noticed inconsistency resulting from air space in the case. A .40 minor load of mine with Titegroup chronographed very consistently, despite a small charge weight with a dense powder...it doesn't come anywhere near filling the case. The idea sounds plausible...I just haven't experienced it. A powder like WST has a low bulk density, so fills more of the case with the same weight charge, if you're worried about such things.

3) Changing anything might change something. Changing primers, or switching to a similar type bullet (jacketed, lead, plated, etc) of the same weight probably won't change pressure or velocity...probably. If you're at the low or mid-range charge, you can probably try it without worrying...if you're at the max load, back it off!

4) The seating die on a 550 will pretty well right a bullet that isn't sitting square on top of a case. I usually try to set the bullets upright nonetheless.

5) You must chrono your loads! You can't afford to not know whether you make power factor, and the chronograph may be the first indicator of something crazy (like if you expect 1100 fps, and you get 1300...something is up, and probably dangerous).

6) I don't know any way to unload the primer mag on a 550. Hmmm. I've never had a problem just leaving primers in it, but I suppose you might want to unload it some times.

DD

[steveknapp]

The new chrono showed up, so I need to get out and do that. I'm looking forward to it actually!

My "stash" of Montana Gold showed up, but the wrong bullets. 147gn instead of 115.

I shot another 120 rounds of my 115gn/6gn power pistol at a local action pistol match. I did pretty well. And was able to take out the Texas star at 50yds in about 12 shots, and I was the only one who got all 5 (the limit was 20 rounds). And my time on the last run through the stage (they have one, and you shoot it 3-4 times) was pretty good. My "high" came down a bit when I saw the results from my last USPSA match, dead last in production. My accuracy was good, but times bad. Need to work on that.

So I'm going to do some testing for accuracy, as well as try a few other powders and loads, but things seem pretty good so far. I like the way these feel, or I'm used to it at least.

There was a small bit of unburned powder in the barrel after shooting again. Is this a worry? The chrono results will tell more I suppose, as I work up from an even lower charge, maybe at some point the rest of the powder is going out the barrel unburned.

The brass remains clean and no signs of high pressure.

Unloading the primers isn't a huge deal. I was thinking if I was every to change to large primers for 45ACP or something. At some point I'd probably just run the machine dry rather than trying to keep everything in sync.

[Matt Griffin]

Try a load with the 147gr, you'll be amazed at how soft a 9mm can feel. It might even be a bit sloppy for your tastes at Minor velocities.

As for primers/powder, I generally clean and load all of my X, then switch everything over to Y.

H.

[steveknapp]

I thought about that, but my best local indoor range does not allow reloads. So I've been trying to get consistent with basically WWB-like ammo.

I'm curious to try 147gn, but investing $90 in a thousand of them at this point. I was thinking more of picking up 100, working up some loads, and going from there.

With the price of lead rising it might not be a bad idea to keep them.

[steveknapp]

Well took some rounds to the range to chrono. Few observations...

- I shot a wire on the chrono. Not a big deal, but it did bump the sensor back a bit, raising the velocity of the follow on shots a good bit. I didn't notice that until later during a cease fire. So a good bit of my data is wasted.

- I always shot 10 shots over the chrono, it only registered 6-10 per string. I was probably shooting a bit higher than I should have.

- Setting up the chrono so I can see over it but am close enough to it will take some practice.

My 6gn of Power Pistol won't make minor reliably. But 6.4gn will. Same for 4.7gn of Bullseye. 4.8gn of Power Pistol won't reliable cycle my gun. And I still need to work up some unique loads.

[Dale53]

Steve;

Congratulations! You have "joined the club"! It is obvious that you entered into the world of reloading in a thoughtful manner. I have been reloading since I was a young teen ager and I recently celebrated my 73rd year. I also started in the very beginning casting bullets. That keeps me independent of suppliers of bullets and allow me MUCH more shooting for the same amount of money. I can also more closely control my performance.

Dale53

[Dale53]

Steve;

Congratulations! You have "joined the club"! It is obvious that you entered into the world of reloading in a thoughtful manner. I have been reloading since I was a young teen ager and I recently celebrated my 73rd year. I also started in the very beginning casting bullets. That keeps me independent of suppliers of bullets and allow me MUCH more shooting for the same amount of money. I can also more closely control my performance.

Dale53

Edited June 13, 2008 by Dale53

[steveknapp]

Thanks Dale!

Should I worry at all about a few unburned flakes of powder in the barrel? The tests show that the performance is good. Accuracy is good. Just seems odd it's not all burning.

[NC Shooter]

Steve,

I have not noticed in your posts any mention of crimp. If you are not using a taper crimp die, you probably should be. The bullet is only held in place by case neck or case mouth tension (usually more critical in rifle cartrideges than pistol - but very important in both). Here is the deal, as the primer is struck and explodes, the bullet will begin it's travel into the bore prematurely if not held in place until full ignition of the propellant powder is established and well involved. At that point the initial compression is lost and as the powder begins it's rapid expansion some powder travels with the bullet into the bore. What you are seeing is powder that did not get ignited because it was not brought to critical mass with the initial primer explosion and during the rapid expansion of gasses cooled too quickly to ignite. You can think of this in the same terms as a gasoline engine with a head gasket leak loosing fuel ecconomy.

A taper crimp die when adjusted properly will hold the bullet in place until almost all powder is in ignition. Over crimping will swage the bullet to a lesser diameter and allow gasses to pass by it on the way out the bore, so don't over do it. I may not have the physics exactly right but you get the idea I'm sure.

Ken

[steveknapp]

I'm using the Dillon 3-die set that I got with the 550B. I believe it's a taper crimp die. I'll try lowering it a wee bit. I had originally done the adjustment based on "touch the case, then another 1/4 turn'. It does take the belling out, and the rounds slide into the case gauge easily and feed well. But I'll try a bit more crimp as well. That would also increase pressure and velocity, right?

When working up to the max loads I kept looking at the brass for some signs of overpressure. The brass and primers looked about the same as factory ammo. You can see the bulge in the primer where the firing pin comes through the breach, and that's about all. The lighter loads didn't even cause the bulge.

[steveknapp]

Attached is my chrono data from the last round. The lower pressure Power Pistol and higher pressure Bullseye was skewed by a sensor that got move a wee bit back when I *ahem* defended myself from one of the skyscreen rods. I didn't notice it until I had already fired the ammo and collected the data.

[Merlin Orr]

Steve

Get yourself a can of Solo 1000 and load up some of those MG 147s with about 3.8 of the Solo @ 1.135 and check the load for your tastes............

[steveknapp]

Thanks Merlin, I do plan on buying some 124 and 147 gn bullets in the near future and try some things out. I know that with the heavier bullet and the faster powder you can make the recoil feel "softer" right? But my best/closest indoor range is a factory ammo only shop. So I wanted to keep shooting something that's reasonably close to the WWB/Blazer Brass 115gn that I've been shooting so far. Plus for the near term at least, the stuff I've made and shot seems pretty accurate. I've been both practicing myself and reloading, so I'm sure there is more in the Indian than the Arrow, but I've got some trust in this stuff.

The tighter crimp helped the power situation!

I don't know if anyone/everyone is aware of the flooding in the midwest. But the USPSA match I drove to today was closed due to flooding problems.

So instead I stopped by a range on the way home. I was shooting at blank targets (people thought I was crazy to staple them up backwards) and try to get "A" hits (center of the paper) without a dot to focus on, and doing it quickly. The range doesn't allow holsters, so I was starting with the gun in my strong hand, low, sort of 10" into my draw.

At first it looked like a shotgun pattern, but by the end I had a nice stripe up the center. I still need to balance speed and accuracy. But still good practice.