Generic Light Target Load Question

[mlcasmey]

If your going to take a round like the .40SW or .38Super and load them way down for indoor 50 foot paper punching, is it better to use a small amount of fast powder or just use less medium powder.

I'm burning 3.8gr Clays in my .45 bulleseye 185gr SWC's as a light load. I know Clays is a no no as far as major, but what about using a small amount as a creampuff load for .40/.38Super. I also have buckets of WST/WSF from my shotgun loading. I have not really tried these for handgun, but I know they are suitable.

I'm not sure I understand the physics behind fast vs slow / lots vs little when it comes to making light loads.

There seems to be plenty of advise on Major loads, which I guess is good, since it could hurt you.

Mike.

[gm iprod]

If you want real powder puff loads then go with small amounts of fast burners. The mediums fill the case but are running at less than optimum pressures so are a little inconsistant and very dirty.

I have developed, for many people, real pansy loads for 9mm and 38Super. I will deal with the 9mm / 38Super first.

Use whatever bullet you have on hand that is accurate and abundant. I prefer a standard lead 125gr for 9mm and 38Super, I assume you will not be shooting to any particular power factor. I worked these 9mm loads out for my Dad for my Mother to shoot his 9mm.

9MM:

125gr Conical Lead, 3.5gr Hodgdon Clays = 900fps in a Tanfoglio P19. You will have to use a light spring in most handguns. Dad's P19 ran well with the std spring except when my mother shot the gun, she is tiny and was is not real strong in the wrists, so she was allowing the handgun to move to much. Really accurate quite clean.

125gr Conical Lead, 3.3gr WST = 850 fps. Light spring for any user. A little dirty but ZERO recoil, felt like a big 22lr. Very slow cycling as the gun got dirty.

95gr JSP (Zero), 4.0gr Titegroup = 1100fps maximum. Real snappy, real light recoil. My Springfield 1911 9mm loved this load. Had to use a light recoil spring (can't remember which) to make this cycle. Sold the gun, bad move. Would also work with a slightly lower amount of Clays, but keep an eye on pressure. Max pressure is achieved with the Titegroup at 5.0gr and 1300fps (123pf). Clays would not make minor pf safely with this bullet.

38Super:

95gr JSP, 4.0gr Titegroup = 1000fps in a 5" gun and 1050fps or so in a 6" open NRA AP handgun. Not a lot of recoil, as both my guns are heavy. I developed this load for steel and found the gun I used for Steel liked this load bullet going real quick so this load got used for kids to try my gun. Very accurate, a little dirty with the ball powder but accurate out to 25yards.

95gr JSP, 3.5gr Clays = 900fps in the 5". 7lb recoil spring required for cycling. Load length was critical as there is not enough power in the spring to cycle reliably. I used 1.200" or longer, but never more than 1.225".

125gr Lead Conical, 3.0gr Clays = 900fps in the 5". Again 7lb or 8lb recoil spring, more reliable feeder than above. Good accuracy to 25y. Essentially this is a 38Special load just reduced a little in the 38Super. Case capacity is about 15% less and no cyclinder gap so we reduced the loads 10% and went from there.

147gr Lead Truncated Cone, 2.9gr Clays = 750fps again the 5". Can't remember what spring but this felt like a good 38Special Target load, the guy who uses this has an endless supply of these lead bullets (i.e. he makes them) and wanted to shoot the same bullet in his 38Super as well as the revolver, obviously sized appropriately. He has effectively turned his Colt Combat Elite into a 9 round magazine fed 38Special. Great for Service Pistol (similar to PPC) when loaded up to 122pf (830fps). I tried this load for NRA AP and it was great on everything except the mover, way to much lead needed, well off the edge of the target.

40S&W

Not done a lot here, but one guy I know wanted to try NRA AP and Service Pistol (both 120pf) with his Para 40Cal.

140gr Lead, 4.0gr Clays = 975fps (OAL 1.175") Not as accurate as we wanted but very gentle. Still held a 4" group at 50yards off a rest. In a match the best we could get prone was about 6", still all tens. Again spring reduction required.

180gr Lead, 3.0gr Clays = 750fps (OAL 1.150"). Reasonable accuracy at 25y, never shecked at 50y. Cycled well. Can't remember any further details. Only have the load data from my note book. Was going to check in a Glock, but no info so probably did not do it. Did check in a CZ75ST, similar velocity and accuracy. CZ had a Polyagonal barrel.

NOTE:

The 9mm and 40S&W Loads should not be used in a handguns without fully supported chambers (Glocks and others) unless you are careful, the pressures are a little high and unsupported chambers will leave bulges. Use brass that is in good condition and that which you are prepared to loose if they bulge.

Edited February 22, 2006 by gm iprod

[kevin c]

Hodgdon lists (or at least used to) a max of 3.5 grains straight Clays over a jacketed 180 grain bullet at SAAMI maximum COAL of 1.135".

It's a nice soft load for me, at a little over 800 fps, but I have to respring my LDA and G35 to get them to cycle (3.3 grains for the same load cycled fine for me in my G23, at 750 fps).

edited for lousy grammer

Edited February 23, 2006 by kevin c

[mlcasmey]

If you want real powder puff loads then go with small amounts of fast burners. The mediums fill the case but are running at less than optimum pressures so are a little inconsistant and very dirty.

I have developed, for many people, real pansy loads for 9mm and 38Super. I will deal with the 9mm / 38Super first.

Use whatever bullet you have on hand that is accurate and abundant. I prefer a standard lead 125gr for 9mm and 38Super, I assume you will not be shooting to any particular power factor. I worked these 9mm loads out for my Dad for my Mother to shoot his 9mm.

9MM:

125gr Conical Lead, 3.5gr Hodgdon Clays = 900fps in a Tanfoglio P19. You will have to use a light spring in most handguns. Dad's P19 ran well with the std spring except when my mother shot the gun, she is tiny and was is not real strong in the wrists, so she was allowing the handgun to move to much. Really accurate quite clean.

125gr Conical Lead, 3.3gr WST = 850 fps. Light spring for any user. A little dirty but ZERO recoil, felt like a big 22lr. Very slow cycling as the gun got dirty.

95gr JSP (Zero), 4.0gr Titegroup = 1100fps maximum. Real snappy, real light recoil. My Springfield 1911 9mm loved this load. Had to use a light recoil spring (can't remember which) to make this cycle. Sold the gun, bad move. Would also work with a slightly lower amount of Clays, but keep an eye on pressure. Max pressure is achieved with the Titegroup at 5.0gr and 1300fps (123pf). Clays would not make minor pf safely with this bullet.

38Super:

95gr JSP, 4.0gr Titegroup = 1000fps in a 5" gun and 1050fps or so in a 6" open NRA AP handgun. Not a lot of recoil, as both my guns are heavy. I developed this load for steel and found the gun I used for Steel liked this load bullet going real quick so this load got used for kids to try my gun. Very accurate, a little dirty with the ball powder but accurate out to 25yards.

95gr JSP, 3.5gr Clays = 900fps in the 5". 7lb recoil spring required for cycling. Load length was critical as there is not enough power in the spring to cycle reliably. I used 1.200" or longer, but never more than 1.225".

125gr Lead Conical, 3.0gr Clays = 900fps in the 5". Again 7lb or 8lb recoil spring, more reliable feeder than above. Good accuracy to 25y. Essentially this is a 38Special load just reduced a little in the 38Super. Case capacity is about 15% less and no cyclinder gap so we reduced the loads 10% and went from there.

147gr Lead Truncated Cone, 2.9gr Clays = 750fps again the 5". Can't remember what spring but this felt like a good 38Special Target load, the guy who uses this has an endless supply of these lead bullets (i.e. he makes them) and wanted to shoot the same bullet in his 38Super as well as the revolver, obviously sized appropriately. He has effectively turned his Colt Combat Elite into a 9 round magazine fed 38Special. Great for Service Pistol (similar to PPC) when loaded up to 122pf (830fps). I tried this load for NRA AP and it was great on everything except the mover, way to much lead needed, well off the edge of the target.

40S&W

Not done a lot here, but one guy I know wanted to try NRA AP and Service Pistol (both 120pf) with his Para 40Cal.

140gr Lead, 4.0gr Clays = 975fps (OAL 1.175") Not as accurate as we wanted but very gentle. Still held a 4" group at 50yards off a rest. In a match the best we could get prone was about 6", still all tens. Again spring reduction required.

180gr Lead, 3.0gr Clays = 750fps (OAL 1.150"). Reasonable accuracy at 25y, never shecked at 50y. Cycled well. Can't remember any further details. Only have the load data from my note book. Was going to check in a Glock, but no info so probably did not do it. Did check in a CZ75ST, similar velocity and accuracy. CZ had a Polyagonal barrel.

NOTE:

The 9mm and 40S&W Loads should not be used in a handguns without fully supported chambers (Glocks and others) unless you are careful, the pressures are a little high and unsupported chambers will leave bulges. Use brass that is in good condition and that which you are prepared to loose if they bulge.

Ouch! "real pansy" loads? I'd prefer to think of them as light target loads. Those of us who kill people and destroy stuff for a living don't use the word "pansy". It's not in our vocabulary.

Mike.

[gm iprod]

I understand light target loads, but some of these are lighter than that

[mlcasmey]

I understand light target loads, but some of these are lighter than that

Just noticed you are a Kiwi! Would love to visit your beautiful country. From what we see in your TV ads there are some spectacular vistas. My wife and I love hiking and kayaking.

Mike.

[TonyT]

I have used 3.6 to 3.9 gr. of WST behind 155 and 180 gr. lead or jacketed loads. Quite pleasant to shoot and very accurate in both revolvers andauto's. The auto mighht require a lighter recoil spring with some loads.

[gm iprod]

The best part is there are lots of places the tourist don't get to, and year round deer hunting.

[TonyT]

For 40 S&W I have used 3.6 gr. of WST behind either 155 gr. or 180 gr. Lead bullets. Real nice and mild. Super accurate in revcolvers and my P1640.

Might require a lighter recoil spring in the auto's.