michael_aos Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I've got an AR-10 in .260 Remington (just for fun). I bought 500 new .260 Remington brass and loaded up a few on my RL550B. Everything seems fine. So then I thought I'd buy some once-fired .308 and just neck them down in a full-length sizing die. Sprayed them with "One shot", but they act like they're not even lubed. It doesn't "feel" right at all, so I figured I'd stop and check here first. How's this SUPPOSED to work? Do I need a single-stage press, or a small-base die, or something else...? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I haven't done this, but you might try an intermediate step, necking down to 7mm instead of to 6.5 in one swoop. I'd do it in a single stage press. I'm not sure but you may need to inside neck ream the cases. Might try Imperial Sizing Die wax as an alternative to the One Shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 I haven't done this, but you might try an intermediate step, necking down to 7mm instead of to 6.5 in one swoop. I'd do it in a single stage press. I'm not sure but you may need to inside neck ream the cases. Might try Imperial Sizing Die wax as an alternative to the One Shot. Thanks, that sounds like a good idea. .260 Remington runs about $197/thousand new. Versus $65/thousand for once-fired .308. At just 2000rds, that adds up to $264. I'd be willing to spend a little to save a little. I expect I would have to neck-ream the cases. Specifically, what neck-reamer should I be looking at? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Specifically, what neck-reamer should I be looking at? If you will be doing that many, you want a motorized one, specifically the Gracey outside neck shaver. http://www.matchprep.com/shaver.htm The Gracey, or Giraud trimmer will be another handy item because each case will need trimming after sizing and neck shaving. Neck shaving will only need to be done once on a batch of cases, but trimming will need to be done after each firing and resizing (it should be done each time anyway). -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 So lets see.... Looking like a single-stage press, plus a motorized neck shaver, plus a 7mm-08 neck-sizing die. Not including the case-trimmer, the break-even point is about 3K. I'd be ahead at 4K, but not really enough to justify all the work. At 5K it makes sense. I don't know how many times I should expect to be able to use new .260 Remington brass -- maybe 5 times? So 4K x 5 firings == 20K rounds fired. Or even 3K x 5 = 15K rounds. That sounds like a lot. Maybe I'll just stick with factory .260 Remington brass for a while and re-evaluate if it becomes a big problem. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 All tools like this have less to do with saving money than with just plain owning and using them -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 All tools like this have less to do with saving money than with just plain owning and using them -- Regards, I've got to admit, I kind of like the idea of adding a single-stage press. It so happens I can get a Forster Co-Ax for $120 and I'm sure I'd find additional uses for it. Not so sure about the outside neck shaver -- I'd definitely want it if I order 5K of once-fired .308, but I'm not sure how much use it would really see long-term. I've got 500 .260 Remington brass now and I just stuck another 1K on my "wish list". I should take delivery of the AR-10 by this weekend. I really don't know how much I'll actually be shooting it. Contrast THOUSANDS of rounds through my AR-15 -vs- HUNDREDS of rounds through my 700P. I've got a 5rd and 10rd AR-10 magazine, with a couple 20rd magazines on backorder. That will keep the round-count down for a little while. I'm not actually targeting this gun for competition-use. Just a plinker. I don't really have any idea how much shooting I'll actually do with it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Michael, You just wanna' shave a few necks and don't mind a hand operated routine, Sinclair International have some nice simple little hand crank tools that are also labratory precise and for under a hundred bucks, even... (anyone remember Snagglepuss and how he would say "even"?). -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 You've got to have the right mindset for this kind of labor. Are you going the .308 resized and reamed/trimmed route to save money? Then how much is your time worth? If you can work overtime, then what gets you the most bang for your buck/time? If not, then how much time can you spare for how much cost savings/gear improvements? On the other hand, if you resize, ream/trim, you can tailor your brass exactly to your rifle. Can you get an accuracy increase without a cost in reliability? How much? Is it worth the effort? You can see why benchrest shooters have no other hobby. They are too busy doing the ballistic calculus and labor tabulation to do anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 You've got to have the right mindset for this kind of labor. Are you going the .308 resized and reamed/trimmed route to save money? Then how much is your time worth? If you can work overtime, then what gets you the most bang for your buck/time? If not, then how much time can you spare for how much cost savings/gear improvements?On the other hand, if you resize, ream/trim, you can tailor your brass exactly to your rifle. Can you get an accuracy increase without a cost in reliability? How much? Is it worth the effort? Lets say I can process 20 pieces / minute. And I need to do 3000 pieces to pay for the equipment. That puts me at $0. So actually 4K to "save" anything. Neck-size to 7mm - 200 minutes Full-length size to .260 Remington - 200 minutes Neck shave - 200 minutes I'm at 10hrs to "save" $137 @ 4K. 17% less than just buying 4K of new .260 Remington. Savings jumps to 27% at 5K. I'm going to try some Imperial die wax in the RL550B. Maybe I can full-length size and neck-down to .260 in 1 step. That saves me the cost of additional dies & a single-stage press (and time). I'm not really after "benchrest" accuracy, but I'm kind of expecting at least 1MOA. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The 550 is not a good choice for this type of job, just not enough oomph in the ram for the long haul. A good single stage will do the job better and last longer doing it. The 550 wasn't designed for these forces and even though it will take it, it will suffer in the end. BTW, the Imperial sizing wax Patrick recommended will definitely work better than One Shot for this type of job. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I hate case prep. I need to hire some third world 10 year olds to do mine for me. For what it is worth, here's what I do. Buy the cases, new or once fired Full length resize (I skip this most of the time for new rifle brass. Trim the brass. I'm too lazy to measure new cases most of the time, so I just set up the Giraud to barely trim the cases. I do measure used brass and adjust the trimmer. The Giraud is pretty cool as far as time saving devices are concerned. That's it. No primer pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring, sorting cases by weight, neck turning, concentricity gauging, etc. To heck with that crap, let's go shoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 I ran a couple through the RL550B, just for fun, and I agree that's not the way to do it. I didn't do any other prep. I guess I don't understand the purpose of trimming the cases, and I'm going to try firing a couple without trimming the necks and see if it causes any problems. The brass was deprimed and primer-pocket was supposed to have been reamed, but I noticed a few aren't. I don't know if I want to buy a swage tool or just toss them in the trash. If I decide to go with resizing once-fired .308, I'm going to order a Forster Co-Ax single-stage for the job. On a somewhat related note, I spent too much time "fiddling" with the reloading stuff last night and got in trouble with my wife. There's an additional "cost" to the time spent at the reloading bench. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 What about the Dillon case-trimmer? Are the other brands preferable? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 The Dillon case trimmer is not as efficient as the Giraud. The Giraud and Gracey trimmers trim to length and chamfer the inside and outside ot the case necks at the same time. They are also quicker to use, as you don't have to load the case into a shell holder, then pull a lever. A casefeeder on a progressive would give the Dillon an awesome production rate, if there weren't additional steps required. With the Giraud, just stick the case in the trimmer like a pencil sharpener, give it a little twist, and thats it. Over 1,000 cases/hour is easy with the Giraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 And the dillon is not as repeatably accurate in it's trim length besides leaving a ragged case mouth. Definitely not a precision device, just a device. get a Gracey, or giraud. There is nothing else that works as well as either of those. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 27, 2005 Author Share Posted January 27, 2005 OK, here's where I'm at... I got an additional case-head for my Dillon 550. I'm going to buy a .308 neck-sizing die for stage-1, then a 7mm-08 neck-sizing die for stage-2, and finally put the .260 Remington full-length sizing die in stage-3. Turns out a friend of mine has a Giraud, so I just need to figure out what I need to convert it to .260 Remington. I don't think I'm going to buy one myself just yet. But maybe... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 All you need is the spring loaded trim die for the .260. Just go to the Giraud Tool Co. website, and order it. If a friend has a Giraud, you're all set. Just borrow it for an evening every couple months and do all your trimming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 All you need is the spring loaded trim die for the .260. Just go to the Giraud Tool Co. website, and order it. If a friend has a Giraud, you're all set. Just borrow it for an evening every couple months and do all your trimming. Yep, I may buy an additional cutting-head as well, that I can leave the blades adjusted for the .260. Just swap it with the case-holder and I'm set. I'm still trying to figure out the perfect combination of dies for the "forming" tool-head. I've got 4 stations. I'm thinking maybe.... Full-length size to .308 (with the depriming / inside neck parts removed) Neck-size to 7mm-08 Neck-size to .260 Remington Body-size to .260 Remington I'm looking at the body-size die because Giraud case-trimmer indexes off the shoulder. It seems like there should be a PERFECT way to do it, but I'm not experienced enough to see it. I'm a little concerned about base-sizing in 2 stations at the same time, but I'm hoping the RL550B can handle it with Imperial sizing wax. I also tend to think base-sizing this once-fired military brass on the first and last station is a "good thing". Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Hi Michael, I'm not at all sure that the 550B is built to take the force of 3-4 stations sizing brass at once. I know the progressive routine is an attractive one, but that's what turret presses are for. Seriously Mike, if you are dead set on forming your own, you should start with a cheap single stage with a massive ram, or a heavy duty turret press where all the dies can be mounted and adjusted, then swung in place over the case one after another. If you do form on the 550 and want to load all the stations with dies, you will be better off running one case at a time through the gamut so as not to not stress the ram of the 550 too much. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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