FIRST 223 setup/load work-up: (Was: Setting up sizing die... logic ch

[cautery]

Decided to convert this thread to contain all my work-up data and questions for my first seup to load .223. The OP was on setting up the sizing die. Additional posts/questions will be made as necessary.

_________________________________________________________________

Need a second set of eyes to validate my analysis and conclusions as to how to set my sizing die to size brass for loading a lot of ammo for use as TEOTWAWKI (aka: SHTF) ammo for use in any/all of our ARs.

Went to the range today and fired 5 rounds of the same lot of Winchester "White Box" .223 ammunition through each of our three AR rifles. Collected brass and bagged/labeled separately for each rifle.

Here is an image of the spreadsheet data:

** Note 2: "DL" is the abbreviation for Datum Line. The Instant Indicator indirectly measures relative chamber headspace based on the Datum Line measurement of well-formed, fired cases. Datum Line on the .223/5.56 is located on the case shoulder at the point at which the case body diameter is 0.330". This is the reference line from which headspace and other dimensions are specified.

1) Am I correct at the outset that I should load the common use ammunition to the tightest chamber in terms of headspace?

In this case, it would appear that my Clark Custom Guns built AR clearly has the smallest Datum Line measurement growth over the Control Case dimension out of all three rifles, and thus indicates this rifle has the smallest headspace measurement of the three rifles.

2) The "Control Case" is actually sized UNDER the MINIMUM SAAMI headsapce specification. I only pulled 1 bullet, and a larger sample would be needed to increase confidence in this conclusion, but I don't want to tear up a bunch of commercial ammo. This one member sample does what is intended, which indicates that the unfired rounds are sized smaller than my CCG Ar and thus are firing with some positive headspace.

In this case, assuming an approximate 0.001" brass bounce back, my CCG rifle has a positive headspace of approximately 0.0019", which seems to be just about perfect for a semi (as long as it functions reliably...which it does.)

3) Thus, I should size my reloads for this common lot based on the CCG rifle and test for reliable function on each rifle.

4) I should use the largest DL measurement attained in the CCG sample to calculate sizing needs... which in this case is 0.0009"

5) If I size the cases such that I bump the shoulders back to the SAAMI minimum (as verified by the Redding instrument), I will be bumping the shoulder back about 0.0009", resulting in a minimum headspace on my CCG rifle of 0.001", and a slightly larger (but well within the specified SAAMI 0.010" range) headspacing on each of the other two rifles. In this case, 0.0058" on the Armalite, and 0.0069" on the Olympic Arms.

6) I will use the actual CCG fired cases to set the sizing die and verify the setting with the Redding instrument. (NOTE: the die will NOT be touching the shellplate as indicated in the Redding Instructions (with cam-over) or the Dillon Instructions (just kissing, no cam-over). I like this.

Specifically, I will back the die out to insure that it won't touch the shoulder and back the decapping stem out to avoid decapping. I will size the case, measure on the Redding instrument, and move the die towards the shellplate in small increments until the die sizes the case down to SAAMI minimum. Lock the die down, and verify the sizing with a second fired case. REPEAT until sizing is set right at SAAMI minimum on a case sized only once. Then adjust the expander/decapper to depth just sufficient to reliably decap.

7) Process a small batch and load 'em up. Test fire at the range for function prior to sizing the rest of my brass.

Is my analysis logical? Flaws? Are my conclusions valid?

Thanks for your help!

Edited August 23, 2013 by cautery

[kamikaze1a]

If for SHTF, I would load as close to SAAMI specs as possible rather than to your current barrels...what if you buy another long gun or need to use the ammo in another?

[Graham Smith]

Agreed. You are over analyzing. This is the kind of stuff you do when you are shooting precision rifle. Just get a full length die and put it in so that the press cams over a bit and rock and roll. If it feeds from a mag and chambers, shoot it.

[cautery]

If for SHTF, I would load as close to SAAMI specs as possible rather than to your current barrels...what if you buy another long gun or need to use the ammo in another?

As it so happens, that is exactly what I proposed above. I will be sizing to the minimum SAAMI spec to fit the tightest of my three rifle chambers...

Agreed. You are over analyzing. This is the kind of stuff you do when you are shooting precision rifle. Just get a full length die and put it in so that the press cams over a bit and rock and roll. If it feeds from a mag and chambers, shoot it.

If I do as you suggest, I would be sizing the cases to BELOW minimum SAAMI specs by something on the order of 15/1000ths.... that's 150% LESS that the entire range specified for the cartridge. Are you recommending that I ignore the SAAMI limits for cartridge headspace? If so, I need to understand why.

As an aside... I realize that it LOOKS like I am over analyzing... and I guess I am for this particular application. But I am trying to learn rifle reloading, and some day I MIGHT want to load for LR precision and/or benchrest, who knows. I am trying to build my knowlege base and skills such that should I ever need them, I will have them.

Did the same thing for pistol 20+ years ago...

[cautery]

Well, it looks like the sizing task is largely licked...

Set the sizing die as accurately as I can, and sized 25 cases.

Result: All 25 cases registered < (+/-0.001") on the Redding Instant Indicator'd dial indicator. Verified that the instrument calibration was still dead on with the gauge after sizing operation. Dead on.

I'm assuming that less than 0.001" either side of desired DL measurement is acceptable.

I'm going to process a batch of 100 cases to use as a test batch for working up a load. Now, just have to wait for the bullets to arrive (en route), and the micrometer to cure in my large powder bar, so I can finish "Project Varget Powder Measure".

[Graham Smith]

I realize that it LOOKS like I am over analyzing... and I guess I am for this particular application.

That's the issue right there. You stated in your original post that you wanted to make up a bunch of plinking, zombie, SHTF, etc ammo. Unless you have a true .223 with pretty much match grade components, you are making ammo for a 5.56 which has so much slop built into it that you can darn near pick up any mil surplus ammo and shoot it.

So, why would you want to make something akin to match grade ammo for this rifle for this purpose?

Edited August 23, 2013 by Graham Smith

[cautery]

I realize that it LOOKS like I am over analyzing... and I guess I am for this particular application.

That's the issue right there. You stated in your original post that you wanted to make up a bunch of plinking, zombie, SHTF, etc ammo. Unless you have a true .223 with pretty much match grade components, you are making ammo for a 5.56 which has so much slop built into it that you can darn near pick up any mil surplus ammo and shoot it.

So, why would you want to make something akin to match grade ammo for this rifle for this purpose?

There is no issue Graham, at least I don't have an issue with anything. There does however appear to be some confusion around what I was/am asking for help on.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my OP. Let me clarify. My FIRST task in .223 loading is to load up a large lot of ammo that is 100% reliable functioning in all three of our current rifles. This ammunition is NOT "plinking, zombie", play, or blaster ammo. (Apparently, my defintion of "TEOTWAWKI (aka: SHTF)" differs from yours, et al.) It's the best ammunition I can make, within the constraints placed on me by component availability and budget, that will still be reliably functional in all three rifles. The ammunition will be stored for emergency use, and is a common use ammunition because in an emergency, I don't want to have to worry about which cans of ammo match which rifles, etc.

Just because I am loading a "common use" ammuntition does not mean it can't be quality ammunition or that "SLOP" is "BUILT IN". I've never intentionally put "SLOP" in anything I've built/made in my life. IF a larger tolerance is allowed in ANY dimension, there is ALWAYS a reason for it. That's just the way I do things, what can I say.

After I finish this task, I WILL be producing "match grade" ammunition for each of the three rifles. (if by "match-grade" you mean ammunition tailored specifically to a single rifle by controlling all dimensions for magnitude and variance for use in situations requiring maximization of the rifles capabilities in accuracy). My rifle is brand new. I don't even have a proper iron-sight battle sight zero on it yet, but it is a quality built rifle. My wife's two rifles are not "stock" either, and she has used both of them in 3-gun, successfully. I have no idea what the performance limits are on any these rifles, but I will find out in due time. (I believe that one should know the performance limits of all the tools you own. Else, how do you know if you have the tools you need to acquire.)

As I posted above in the sentence following your quote of me:

But I am trying to learn rifle reloading, and some day I MIGHT want to load for LR precision and/or benchrest, who knows. I am trying to build my knowlege base and skills such that should I ever need them, I will have them.

In fact, I am quite sure that I will, at some point, want to load for much more demanding purposes, so I'm not quite sure why it would be hard to understand why I would be learning about and to some extent practicing those skills now...

My original post was INTENDED to ask two basic questions. Perhaps I should have explicitly and specifically asked them at the end of the post instead of integrating them into the data/description portion of the post. Oh wait, I did...

Is my analysis logical? Flaws? Are my conclusions valid?

I simply asked if the analysis that I made was logical, and if my conclusion that sizing the cases to the SAAMI minimum based on the Clark Custom rifle's chamber (in terms of headspace) would be the best decision as it applies to my current mission: to load ammo that will function reliably in all three rifles.

I didn't ask anyone to formulate or express their judgement on whether what I had done or was doing was "over-analyzing" or necessary or if I was spending my time wisely, etc, etc... only if the conclusions I had drawn from the data I had collected and evaluated was logical.

I'm perfectly capable of deciding what/how I spend my time and whether or not the time is well-spent or not.

Thanks!

[kamikaze1a]

sizing the cases to the SAAMI minimum

This part; yes

[cautery]

Bullets arrived today (Nosler 69gr.)... FInished most of the work I planned on the dedicated 223 Powder Measure. Still need to test it to see of what I did to it helped make it more reliable/consistent for use with Varget...

Have 150 cases sized (+/- 0.001" to chosen headspace/DL).

Still need to trim, swage and tumble them.

Need to choose a trim length... Still 10 weeks out from receipt of the Giraud, so I'll have to fall back on and use the Redding Trimmer...

Edited August 25, 2013 by cautery

[Graham Smith]

There does however appear to be some confusion around what I was/am asking for help on.

There most certainly is. Your original question related to making up a bunch of SHTF ammo - IOW stockpiling. And you stated it was to be for different rifles. To me, that means you want something akin to the WWB you started with. Which, by your own measurements is slightly under spec.

You then proceeded to layout a plan of action which was to do the exact opposite - build precision ammo. Since that now seems to be your goal, then I'll just suggest that you ignore anything I have said since I was answering a different question.

[cautery]

There does however appear to be some confusion around what I was/am asking for help on.

There most certainly is. Your original question related to making up a bunch of SHTF ammo - IOW stockpiling. And you stated it was to be for different rifles. To me, that means you want something akin to the WWB you started with. Which, by your own measurements is slightly under spec.

You then proceeded to layout a plan of action which was to do the exact opposite - build precision ammo. Since that now seems to be your goal, then I'll just suggest that you ignore anything I have said since I was answering a different question.

No need to get testy there Graham. We simply have different definitions for "TEOTWAWKI (aka: SHTF)".... and precision apparently. I'm not building precision ammo; I'm building consistent ammo, better than average commercial rounds, that will work in all three of our rifles.

It just so happens that my personal rifle, which is built more compatibly for long range shooting, has a chamber that measures very close to SAAMI minimum specs...

My goal/plan hasn't changed at all.

It appears that we have somehow gotten off on the wrong foot.... For my part, I apologize, and I'd like to try and fix that...

Hi there! My name is Clay Autery. Been a member here for years. Love shooting and reloading. Nice to meet you!

Edited August 26, 2013 by cautery

[bigedp51]

Measure the headspace length of new factory ammunition, the ammunition manufactures already came up with a length that works for reliable functioning.

My rifles below are not for bench rest competition and there is nothing wrong with .004 or .005 shoulder bump and head clearance.

On a bolt action rifle the thumb rule is bump the shoulder back .001 to .002 smaller than its fired length.

On a semi-automatic the thumb rule is bump the shoulder back .003 to .006 than its fired length.

You want enough "head clearance" or "air space" between the bolt face and the rear of the case for reliable chambering under all conditions. In the military this means dirt and mud so the military makes their chambers fatter and longer to chamber cartridges under those conditions.

And I do not use a paper clip to check for stretching and thinning in the base web area, and I will know right after firing if the shoulder bump and head clearance is excessive.

Your over thinking resizing your cases, on a British .303 Enfield rifle at maximum headspace you can have over .016 head clearance and that "WILL" cause your brass to stretch. I wish all my old mil-surp rifles had only .004 to .005 head clearance.

Now look at the tolerances for the M14 cartridges and chamber. That is a head clearance from .0015 to .0125

Edited August 27, 2013 by bigedp51

[Talan2000]

Wow. What a great and helpful response. Thank you.