critique my plan - quality 308 on a 550 or 650

[southpaw187]

I am essentially new to reloading. I have a square deal B that i've loaded about 3,500 rounds of 45 and 38/357 on over the last 1.5 years. I'm comfortable with it now.

I shoot a rem 700 5R milspec 308. It really likes Fed Gold Medal Match 175 SMKs but I'd rather reload on quality equipment. ive been researching and its almost time to dive into a 550 or a 650. I do not care about building the super most-insane accurate bench rest ammo in the world. I have a 10 month old daughter and therefore my time is limited so i need efficieny without sacrificing too much quality. If i can load up 100-200 rounds per hour and if I can get 1/2 MOA from my ammo i'd be thrilled. I started researching all of this and this is what i've come up with. please critique my plan as i could use all the help i can get

I'll start with Laupa Brass due to the assumption its the best and i won't have to mess around with uniforming primer pockets or reaming flash holes. Assume that the brass is now "once fired".

I will lube it and then deprime and full length resize it with a redding type-S full bushing die, bumping back the shoulder about .002" (I will determine this by measuring with the Larry Willis Digital Headspace Gauge)

I will clean it in a rotary tumbler with Stainless Steel Media due to the assumption they come up spotless inside and out.

I will trim on a Giraud Trimmer.

I will re-lube and then run it through the stages of the progressive press: it will go back through the redding Type-S full bushing die, then get primed, then it will get a powder charge from the dillon powder measure, then the bullet will get seated with a redding competition seating die with micrometer. Voila.

am i missing something?

[Ken Kwiat]

I am essentially new to reloading. I have a square deal B that i've loaded about 3,500 rounds of 45 and 38/357 on over the last 1.5 years. I'm comfortable with it now.

I shoot a rem 700 5R milspec 308. It really likes Fed Gold Medal Match 175 SMKs but I'd rather reload on quality equipment. ive been researching and its almost time to dive into a 550 or a 650. I do not care about building the super most-insane accurate bench rest ammo in the world. I have a 10 month old daughter and therefore my time is limited so i need efficieny without sacrificing too much quality. If i can load up 100-200 rounds per hour and if I can get 1/2 MOA from my ammo i'd be thrilled. I started researching all of this and this is what i've come up with. please critique my plan as i could use all the help i can get

I started on the path a 1.5 years ago, essentially starting in a similar place and mindset as you. I reload PR on a 650 -- essentially use it as a four stage (Type S in station 1, nothing in station 2 as I hand prime, body die in station 3 for the shoulder bump, pull case out for external powder throw on station 4, bullet seating on station 5). The fact that you're just reloading .308 will help as it eliminates things like neck turning which is a time sink.

My variances are Priming: for LR rifle, I handprime CCI BR2 primers via Sinclair tool. Why? You get a very tactile feel for whether your primer pockets are loosening up. As I'm usually pushing on the edge of pressure out of my bolt gun (AIAW chambered in .260 in my case), it's a step I find I need. If you're not even close to pushing the velocities, could probably prime via the press.

Powder: I could not get adequate consitency for LR with the standard dillon powder measures. Especially when using an extruded powder like Varget (which I would highly recommend for .308). Tried all the tweaks (polishing, Uniquetek baffle, tapping the hopper often, antiStatic sheets, etc.) and would still get +/- .3-.4 gr. Did not tape a dildo to the hopper like some have... I also live at high altitude so static is always a problem here.

I use a RCBS ChargeMaster as I get a visual indication of .1 gr. accuracy. Powder throw accuracy is required to get the 1/2MOA that you're after, imo. Otherwise, your SDs will rise and you'll get vertical stringing. Granted, this is slowing down the process as it's hard to get the throughput you're after with a single ChargeMaster. Some use two. Btw: I've re-programmed mine to speed it up a bit (common SHide tip). A Prometheus system would be great but just too expensive for me.

OK, 1/2 MOA accuracy does take some work generally but your steps below should get there.

I'll start with Laupa Brass due to the assumption its the best and i won't have to mess around with uniforming primer pockets or reaming flash holes. Assume that the brass is now "once fired".

Agree, Lapua is the best. I don't weigh and sort with Lapua.

People report Lapua doesn't need to be flash hole reamed. OK, I just do it as a general rule as that one is no big deal, i.e., you're only doing it once per life of the case. Maybe 10 seconds per case. How much does flash hole reaming make a difference? I don't know -- it seems like one of those reasonable BR techniques that many LR tac shooters have adopted. I've followed the pack.

I uniform my primer pockets after every firing but I don't do the SS tumbling.

I will lube it and then deprime and full length resize it with a redding type-S full bushing die, bumping back the shoulder about .002" (I will determine this by measuring with the Larry Willis Digital Headspace Gauge)

Right on the mark. Same process that I do with the Redding type-S. Btw: I like their competition Type-S better than the standard one (I have both) as the Comp one is easy to fine tune 'how deep on the neck your bushing is sizing'. Btw, don't forget to plan for a couple of the nitride neck bushings. And, the "full" S-Type means you get the neck resizing die and a separate body die for the shoulder bump. That wasn't clear to me until I bought my first Redding S-Type die set.

I will clean it in a rotary tumbler with Stainless Steel Media due to the assumption they come up spotless inside and out.

This is where you and I depart. I think the hassle of the SS media is something I haven't been able to convince myself to do. Granted, the results people get with SS are fantastic. I don't have a source of water or drain in my reloading room so I would have to take over part of our laundry room to do it. Just can't bring myself to do it. I have 2 of the small Dillon vibratory tumblers that I've used for high volume pistol reloading. I get by just fine with cornCob & dillon polish. But, if you don't do the SS media route, you'll want to add primer pocket uniforming to get rid of the carbon deposits. I use a power screwdriver for most of this stuff (generally with Sinclair tools).

I will trim on a Giraud Trimmer.

Ditto -- I love my Giraud. But, measure first. With neck sizing and shooting through a bolt gun I get very little stretching. I find that I might have to trim once after fire forming and never again. If I don't trim with my Giraud, I use a power screwdriver (sinclair base) and one of the chamfer/debur tools. I also have a AR10 in .260 for LR and like with any gas gun, those cases need to be trimmed after every firing (generally) due to the hot brass being extracted rather violently. Bolt -- much different.

I will re-lube and then run it through the stages of the progressive press: it will go back through the redding Type-S full bushing die, then get primed, then it will get a powder charge from the dillon powder measure, then the bullet will get seated with a redding competition seating die with micrometer. Voila.

That's exactly what I do. I lube on a lube pad then plink my cases into the case feeder tube 10 at a time. Probably could just throw them into the hopper but that wouldn't save much. Only thing you might want to consider is to anneal the cases after the 3rd firing or so to extend their life. With all my manual stuff, I am not getting the thruput that you state. Realistically I'm probably 50 per hour. Much different experience for LR than the high volume USPSA/3-gun reloading that I do on dedicated 1050s! The results are worth it though. LR reloading is a pain in the ass compared to pistol, no other way to put it.

I hear you on the time problem. I'm a busy professional with 3 teenagers who also believe the world revolves around their schedules. Easier than a 10-month old but lots of shuttling to/fro. Good luck!

am i missing something?

Cold beer and tunes...maybe a dillon calendar to stare at. My reloading room is my man cave after all.

[Ken Kwiat]

One other thought: I started LR with .308 as it is a great starting point. As I discovered in the LR Tactical game, there's a reason why the .308 shooters are often separated into a handicapped group relative to the 6mm, 6.5mm, & 7mm guys. But again, it's a great place to start. Components readily available, your gun is already chambered for it, lot's of data available, a gold standard to be sure.

However, I checked with many experienced LR Tac guys on .308 loads. The Lapua 155gr. loads over Varget was the clear winner recommended to me. My results confirmed those recommendations. It's a sweet combo that I think optimizes a bit higher velocity with a high-BC bullet, i.e., your traj curve is somewhat flatter compared to the heavier, high-BC bullets.

[southpaw187]

ken, see below for my responses in brackets. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply to me!!!!

I am essentially new to reloading. I have a square deal B that i've loaded about 3,500 rounds of 45 and 38/357 on over the last 1.5 years. I'm comfortable with it now.

I shoot a rem 700 5R milspec 308. It really likes Fed Gold Medal Match 175 SMKs but I'd rather reload on quality equipment. ive been researching and its almost time to dive into a 550 or a 650. I do not care about building the super most-insane accurate bench rest ammo in the world. I have a 10 month old daughter and therefore my time is limited so i need efficieny without sacrificing too much quality. If i can load up 100-200 rounds per hour and if I can get 1/2 MOA from my ammo i'd be thrilled. I started researching all of this and this is what i've come up with. please critique my plan as i could use all the help i can get

I started on the path a 1.5 years ago, essentially starting in a similar place and mindset as you. I reload PR on a 650 -- essentially use it as a four stage (Type S in station 1, nothing in station 2 as I hand prime, body die in station 3 for the shoulder bump, pull case out for external powder throw on station 4, bullet seating on station 5). The fact that you're just reloading .308 will help as it eliminates things like neck turning which is a time sink.

[That sounds like a great setup. Neck turning is something i'm definitely trying to avoid. Your type-S die in station #1 is a Neck Sizing only die, correct? That is why you have the redding body die in station #3 to do the shoulder bump, correct? In researching the redding dies via their website and catalog I was leaning towards the Type-S Full Length Bushing Die (included with the comp seating die as a part of the type-s match bushing full die set #36155), which as far as I can tell is a combo body-die & neck sizing bushing die in one unit, which could accomplish a full length resize (without a neck expander ball) along with a nice squeeze on the neck with the bushing. I think this could eliminate needing 2 stations, but I'm not exactly sure. Thoughts?)]

My variances are Priming: for LR rifle, I handprime CCI BR2 primers via Sinclair tool. Why? You get a very tactile feel for whether your primer pockets are loosening up. As I'm usually pushing on the edge of pressure out of my bolt gun (AIAW chambered in .260 in my case), it's a step I find I need. If you're not even close to pushing the velocities, could probably prime via the press.

[since I have such good luck priming with Federal Primers on my square deal, I thought I would give priming a try on the 550/650. It sure would save time. I don't anticipate pushing for sky-high velocities and pressures, but that's not a given. If it doesn't work out, I could switch to hand priming. Thanks for the insight on this one.]

Powder: I could not get adequate consitency for LR with the standard dillon powder measures. Especially when using an extruded powder like Varget (which I would highly recommend for .308). Tried all the tweaks (polishing, Uniquetek baffle, tapping the hopper often, antiStatic sheets, etc.) and would still get +/- .3-.4 gr. Did not tape a dildo to the hopper like some have... I also live at high altitude so static is always a problem here.

I use a RCBS ChargeMaster as I get a visual indication of .1 gr. accuracy. Powder throw accuracy is required to get the 1/2MOA that you're after, imo. Otherwise, your SDs will rise and you'll get vertical stringing. Granted, this is slowing down the process as it's hard to get the throughput you're after with a single ChargeMaster. Some use two. Btw: I've re-programmed mine to speed it up a bit (common SHide tip). A Prometheus system would be great but just too expensive for me.

[Have you done any research on the Quick-Measure powder system (www.quick-measure.com)? I wonder if it is worth its salt. It can hook onto a dillon. I agree that a consistent powder change is important. I am not opposed to individually pouring charges into my cases via a funnel on the press, but would like to have a powder measure that works on the progressive that is consistent enough]

OK, 1/2 MOA accuracy does take some work generally but your steps below should get there.

I'll start with Laupa Brass due to the assumption its the best and i won't have to mess around with uniforming primer pockets or reaming flash holes. Assume that the brass is now "once fired".

Agree, Lapua is the best. I don't weigh and sort with Lapua.

People report Lapua doesn't need to be flash hole reamed. OK, I just do it as a general rule as that one is no big deal, i.e., you're only doing it once per life of the case. Maybe 10 seconds per case. How much does flash hole reaming make a difference? I don't know -- it seems like one of those reasonable BR techniques that many LR tac shooters have adopted. I've followed the pack. I uniform my primer pockets after every firing but I don't do the SS tumbling.

[What flash hole reamer tool do you use? what primer pocket uniformer do you use?]

I will lube it and then deprime and full length resize it with a redding type-S full bushing die, bumping back the shoulder about .002" (I will determine this by measuring with the Larry Willis Digital Headspace Gauge)

Right on the mark. Same process that I do with the Redding type-S. Btw: I like their competition Type-S better than the standard one (I have both) as the Comp one is easy to fine tune 'how deep on the neck your bushing is sizing'. Btw, don't forget to plan for a couple of the nitride neck bushings. And, the "full" S-Type means you get the neck resizing die and a separate body die for the shoulder bump. That wasn't clear to me until I bought my first Redding S-Type die set.

[Here is where I'm obviously confused as I noted above my interpretation of the redding type-s full length bushing die. i have seen the comp neck sizing die with the micrometer, and i think that it is awesome, but it is a neck sizing only die. the die i was considering (i think) is a combo body die and neck size bushing die. it says on their website that if you dissasemble it, you can use the die body as a standard body die. do you think i'd be better off having 2 seperate dies instead of one, simply for the fact i can fine tune the neck sizing die with the micrometer?]

I will clean it in a rotary tumbler with Stainless Steel Media due to the assumption they come up spotless inside and out.

This is where you and I depart. I think the hassle of the SS media is something I haven't been able to convince myself to do. Granted, the results people get with SS are fantastic. I don't have a source of water or drain in my reloading room so I would have to take over part of our laundry room to do it. Just can't bring myself to do it. I have 2 of the small Dillon vibratory tumblers that I've used for high volume pistol reloading. I get by just fine with cornCob & dillon polish. But, if you don't do the SS media route, you'll want to add primer pocket uniforming to get rid of the carbon deposits. I use a power screwdriver for most of this stuff (generally with Sinclair tools).

I will trim on a Giraud Trimmer.

Ditto -- I love my Giraud. But, measure first. With neck sizing and shooting through a bolt gun I get very little stretching. I find that I might have to trim once after fire forming and never again. If I don't trim with my Giraud, I use a power screwdriver (sinclair base) and one of the chamfer/debur tools. I also have a AR10 in .260 for LR and like with any gas gun, those cases need to be trimmed after every firing (generally) due to the hot brass being extracted rather violently. Bolt -- much different.

[With the body die that you are using on station #3, aren't you full length resizing your case (shoulder and body( after you previously neck sized? Another question, if your cases haven't stretched enough to dictate trimming, do you still need to chamfer the edges of the neck in order to seat the bullet properly? Lastly, how did you determine your trim length? Did you measure your chamber size and if so how?]

I will re-lube and then run it through the stages of the progressive press: it will go back through the redding Type-S full bushing die, then get primed, then it will get a powder charge from the dillon powder measure, then the bullet will get seated with a redding competition seating die with micrometer. Voila.

That's exactly what I do. I lube on a lube pad then plink my cases into the case feeder tube 10 at a time. Probably could just throw them into the hopper but that wouldn't save much. Only thing you might want to consider is to anneal the cases after the 3rd firing or so to extend their life. With all my manual stuff, I am not getting the thruput that you state. Realistically I'm probably 50 per hour. Much different experience for LR than the high volume USPSA/3-gun reloading that I do on dedicated 1050s! The results are worth it though. LR reloading is a pain in the ass compared to pistol, no other way to put it.

I hear you on the time problem. I'm a busy professional with 3 teenagers who also believe the world revolves around their schedules. Easier than a 10-month old but lots of shuttling to/fro. Good luck!

[Thanks I can only imagine what it is like with 3!!! having this one has been... well.... challenging

am i missing something?

Cold beer and tunes...maybe a dillon calendar to stare at. My reloading room is my man cave after all.

[haha yes I call my reloading room my man-cave also. Glad to hear there are so many of us cave men out there. i'm here in Scottsdale Arizona so sometimes when I'm in the Dillon store I see the models from the calendar coming in and out of there. they sure know what their customers like!]

[southpaw187]

One other thought: I started LR with .308 as it is a great starting point. As I discovered in the LR Tactical game, there's a reason why the .308 shooters are often separated into a handicapped group relative to the 6mm, 6.5mm, & 7mm guys. But again, it's a great place to start. Components readily available, your gun is already chambered for it, lot's of data available, a gold standard to be sure.

However, I checked with many experienced LR Tac guys on .308 loads. The Lapua 155gr. loads over Varget was the clear winner recommended to me. My results confirmed those recommendations. It's a sweet combo that I think optimizes a bit higher velocity with a high-BC bullet, i.e., your traj curve is somewhat flatter compared to the heavier, high-BC bullets.

Thanks again for this advice. I plan on cutting my teeth on the 308 for the reasons you've mentioned. I am not opposed to trying different bullet weights. I'm just going to start with the 175s due to how well they shot out of my barrel with the 11.2 twist rate. that, plus all of my scope adjustments i have in my data book are tied to that bullet weight and velocty from the Federal GMM. Your help is extremely appreciated!!!

[Graham Smith]

However, I checked with many experienced LR Tac guys on .308 loads. The Lapua 155gr. loads over Varget was the clear winner recommended to me. My results confirmed those recommendations. It's a sweet combo that I think optimizes a bit higher velocity with a high-BC bullet, i.e., your traj curve is somewhat flatter compared to the heavier, high-BC bullets.

If you were shooting Palma rifles, I would agree, but for anything else, the difference between the Lapua and Sierra (2156) 155's is negligible.

if I can get 1/2 MOA from my ammo i'd be thrilled.

At what distances?

I think you will find that trying to load .308 for a bolt action on a progressive press is an exercise in futility. You really need to be using a single stage or turret where you have tighter controls and tolerances and can make frequent checks and tweaks. IF you do decide to load on a progressive, know that Varget is notoriously difficult to meter.

If your gun likes 175,s then try the Sierra 175's over IMR4096. Better yet, find some of the new Hornady 178's, these things have a BC of .530 - that's even better than the Lapua 155's. Early reports on these say they are killers.

Jump on over to the SniperCentral.com forum. There are several discussions on all of these.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Graham Smith

[cavallino]

If you go the 550/650 route, then investigate the free floating die toolhead setup from Whidden gunworks.

[up2dsno]

Going to watch this thread closely.

Been gettting pretty good accuracy loading .223 for 3-gun on a 550 and just started shooting a .308 bolt gun. I am going to shoot FGMM for a little while, as I investigate precision reloading. I know that there is a big difference between reloading sub moa for an AR and reloading for true long range precision with a bolt gun. Not investing in another press (single stage) would be nice, but I'm watching the classifieds for deals on associated equipment.

Those of you that are using your 550 for this process what kind of accuracy are you getting and what is your set-up (rifle, bullet, powder, primer, brass, etc)? Thanks.

[southpaw187]

If you go the 550/650 route, then investigate the free floating die toolhead setup from Whidden gunworks.

In addition to buying toolheads direct from Whidden, one can purchase the Whidden toolheads from UniqueTek which can include their toolhead clamp kit for a secure fit. I have not researched the clamp kit but it looks interesting.

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1333

[Ken Kwiat]

Sorry for the delayed response. Was busy shooting a sniper match yesterday.

My responses in LIFO order.

From Southpaw: In addition to buying toolheads direct from Whidden, one can purchase the Whidden toolheads from UniqueTek which can include their toolhead clamp kit for a secure fit. I have not researched the clamp kit but it looks interesting.

K2: I love the Whidden toolheads for the 650. The clamping ones bought thru UniqueTek is all I use for LR reloading on my 650.

In addition, another tweak to my 650 that I made was the one I found on BE's forum, i.e., the rotary bearings that smooth out the shellplate rotation. A worthwhile one. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll try to track down the link.

From Graham:

If you were shooting Palma rifles, I would agree, but for anything else, the difference between the Lapua and Sierra (2156) 155's is negligible.

K2: Agreed, although I don't compete in Palma or F-Class -- may shoot one match this year. My strong bias is for the LR Tac matches that we have out here in the West. The terrain we shoot over and some matches you get some field challenges and exercise to boot (carrying all your LR crap through miles of trails).

I'm generally a Sierra shooter and would have gotten around to the 155 gr. Palma bullets if I would have stuck with .308. I use their 142 gr. 6.5mm exclusively for my bolt gun. Love 'em.

From Graham:

I think you will find that trying to load .308 for a bolt action on a progressive press is an exercise in futility. You really need to be using a single stage or turret where you have tighter controls and tolerances and can make frequent checks and tweaks. IF you do decide to load on a progressive, know that Varget is notoriously difficult to meter.

If your gun likes 175,s then try the Sierra 175's over IMR4096. Better yet, find some of the new Hornady 178's, these things have a BC of .530 - that's even better than the Lapua 155's. Early reports on these say they are killers

K2: I differ on the progressive vs. single stage. With the Whidden toolheads and rotary bearing tweak on my 650, there's no precision difference from any single stage I've used. I'm essentially using my 650 as a 3-4 stage, it moves production along a bit. I know many top LR Tac shooters that are using 550s,650s,etc. IMO, use what you have.

Varget: I think I said the same thing in my response. My experience with Varget through a Dillon powder measure is what resulted in me going with the RCBS ChargeMaster. And I tried pretty hard to make it work. Some have or are willing to live with some powder throw variation. I can live with .1 gr. variation as I can usually get my SDs 15 fps or lower which is my rule of thumb. Latest .260 H4350 loads are in the SD 8 fps range. Good enough for my game. I've gotten .2" 100 yds groups out of my AIAW and well under .5 MOA groups at farther distances when I do my part. This is more than adequate for the LR Tac game.

Heavy vs. light: agreed, if you gun likes the heavies specifically there are good high bc options out there. As I said, many of the LR Tac gurus like the 155 gr. (SMK or Scenar) over Varget. I had good success with it.

My guess is that Southpaw is reading the other great LR forums like SnipersHide and SniperCentral(?).

What I find key on those forums is separating the wheat from the chaff. What I like about BE is that some of us can be filters of that. Although I'm an aspiring LR Tac shooter (doing OK so far), I have definitely been in the IPSC/USPSA game of competitive shooting and diminishing returns for a long time. Heck, there were years where I was shooting 70K rounds/year -- started to feel more like a job to me than my hobby. 3gun and LR Tac are great new areas to explore.

From Southpaw:

Thanks again for this advice. I plan on cutting my teeth on the 308 for the reasons you've mentioned. I am not opposed to trying different bullet weights. I'm just going to start with the 175s due to how well they shot out of my barrel with the 11.2 twist rate. that, plus all of my scope adjustments i have in my data book are tied to that bullet weight and velocty from the Federal GMM. Your help is extremely appreciated!!!

K2: Glad to do it. That's what I've always loved about the shooting sports. I can't begin to tell how much I've learned from some great teachers (espcially in the USPSA community). And, in CO/NM/WY, there's quite a bit of cross over folks to the LR games.

Dope & Load Development: I spend an inordinate amount of time on it. Try to do most of that during the slower Winter months. I spend alot of time on the JBM ballistics sites, running different dope solutions and printing them out. Indispensable tools for this: a reliable chrono and a Kestrel. I used a PACT MkIV for years but have recently going to an Oehler 35P. I really wanted the proof channel that the Oehler provides. But, all of these odds and ends add up in a hurry. My advice is to go a step at a time otherwise it is prohibitively expensive.

Another thought: if you haven't read Zak Smith's primer articles (and others) on LR Tac, I highly recommend them. Zak is a very good writer and puts the kind of detailed research that his technical background supports. And, he and his partners at ThunderBeast make some killer suppressors! Zak's Site

I'll respond to the specific loading/tool questions in separate post.

[Ken Kwiat]

K2: Latest responses in Red.

ken, see below for my responses in brackets. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply to me!!!!

I am essentially new to reloading. I have a square deal B that i've loaded about 3,500 rounds of 45 and 38/357 on over the last 1.5 years. I'm comfortable with it now.

I shoot a rem 700 5R milspec 308. It really likes Fed Gold Medal Match 175 SMKs but I'd rather reload on quality equipment. ive been researching and its almost time to dive into a 550 or a 650. I do not care about building the super most-insane accurate bench rest ammo in the world. I have a 10 month old daughter and therefore my time is limited so i need efficieny without sacrificing too much quality. If i can load up 100-200 rounds per hour and if I can get 1/2 MOA from my ammo i'd be thrilled. I started researching all of this and this is what i've come up with. please critique my plan as i could use all the help i can get

I started on the path a 1.5 years ago, essentially starting in a similar place and mindset as you. I reload PR on a 650 -- essentially use it as a four stage (Type S in station 1, nothing in station 2 as I hand prime, body die in station 3 for the shoulder bump, pull case out for external powder throw on station 4, bullet seating on station 5). The fact that you're just reloading .308 will help as it eliminates things like neck turning which is a time sink.

[That sounds like a great setup. Neck turning is something i'm definitely trying to avoid. Your type-S die in station #1 is a Neck Sizing only die, correct? That is why you have the redding body die in station #3 to do the shoulder bump, correct? In researching the redding dies via their website and catalog I was leaning towards the Type-S Full Length Bushing Die (included with the comp seating die as a part of the type-s match bushing full die set #36155), which as far as I can tell is a combo body-die & neck sizing bushing die in one unit, which could accomplish a full length resize (without a neck expander ball) along with a nice squeeze on the neck with the bushing. I think this could eliminate needing 2 stations, but I'm not exactly sure. Thoughts?)]

K2: Neck turning? YeeHa -- I do it in front of the TV in the Winter. It is a chore but given the options for .260 brass, it's a necessary evil imo. Lapua is coming out with .260 brass soon so that'll help.

S-Type Dies: I went with the separate body dies from the S-Type neck sizer. Why? I wanted the flexibility to body size/shoulder bump without having to mess with my neck sizing die. Some bolt gun reloaders only shoulder bump occasionally. As it turns out, I pretty much body size/bump every reloading. With my gas gun die set up, that's where I always body size/bump but I still went with the separate dies for consistency. With the 650, I had the stations so not a biggie. If you are station-limited, the S-Type FL die would be just fine.

My variances are Priming: for LR rifle, I handprime CCI BR2 primers via Sinclair tool. Why? You get a very tactile feel for whether your primer pockets are loosening up. As I'm usually pushing on the edge of pressure out of my bolt gun (AIAW chambered in .260 in my case), it's a step I find I need. If you're not even close to pushing the velocities, could probably prime via the press.

[since I have such good luck priming with Federal Primers on my square deal, I thought I would give priming a try on the 550/650. It sure would save time. I don't anticipate pushing for sky-high velocities and pressures, but that's not a given. If it doesn't work out, I could switch to hand priming. Thanks for the insight on this one.]

K2: that is a nice thing about .308. You probably won't be pushing pressures. I admit the that hand priming is one of the "diminishing returns" manual steps. Fed vs. CCI vs. Wolf vs. regular or BR...? I don't know, I've read plenty of posts saying one's better than the others, Wolf is currently in favor, etc. I bought a couple of cases of the BR2 when I started so that's what I'm using. Your Fed LRs will be fine.

Powder: I could not get adequate consitency for LR with the standard dillon powder measures. Especially when using an extruded powder like Varget (which I would highly recommend for .308). Tried all the tweaks (polishing, Uniquetek baffle, tapping the hopper often, antiStatic sheets, etc.) and would still get +/- .3-.4 gr. Did not tape a dildo to the hopper like some have... I also live at high altitude so static is always a problem here.

I use a RCBS ChargeMaster as I get a visual indication of .1 gr. accuracy. Powder throw accuracy is required to get the 1/2MOA that you're after, imo. Otherwise, your SDs will rise and you'll get vertical stringing. Granted, this is slowing down the process as it's hard to get the throughput you're after with a single ChargeMaster. Some use two. Btw: I've re-programmed mine to speed it up a bit (common SHide tip). A Prometheus system would be great but just too expensive for me.

[Have you done any research on the Quick-Measure powder system (www.quick-measure.com)? I wonder if it is worth its salt. It can hook onto a dillon. I agree that a consistent powder change is important. I am not opposed to individually pouring charges into my cases via a funnel on the press, but would like to have a powder measure that works on the progressive that is consistent enough]

K2: I haven't looked into them. I have drooled over the Prometheus which are very fast and extremely accurate. But, I think they're over $2K! I asked a number of local LR Tac gurus and almost all of them were using the ChargeMaster. For the record, other powders do flow much better through the Dillon measures. For example, I load high volume .223 on my Super1050 using Ramshot Tac. No problems with that small grain powder. Varget is so extruded and clumpy it seems to be the worst for flow. H4350 (for my .260 loads) is pretty long grained and clumpy too. Note: the hardcore BR guys generally stick to their balance beams. I calibrate each time I turn on ChargeMaster and mid-way through long reloading sessions. I think it's "good enough" for my sport. You might have been success with the Dillon measures than I did.

OK, 1/2 MOA accuracy does take some work generally but your steps below should get there.

I'll start with Laupa Brass due to the assumption its the best and i won't have to mess around with uniforming primer pockets or reaming flash holes. Assume that the brass is now "once fired".

Agree, Lapua is the best. I don't weigh and sort with Lapua.

People report Lapua doesn't need to be flash hole reamed. OK, I just do it as a general rule as that one is no big deal, i.e., you're only doing it once per life of the case. Maybe 10 seconds per case. How much does flash hole reaming make a difference? I don't know -- it seems like one of those reasonable BR techniques that many LR tac shooters have adopted. I've followed the pack. I uniform my primer pockets after every firing but I don't do the SS tumbling.

[What flash hole reamer tool do you use? what primer pocket uniformer do you use?]

K2: I like Sinclair's products. I use their Gen II Delux Flash Hole Deburring tool. A couple of twists one time per case. I use the Sinclair Primer Pocket uniformers with the 8000 series power adapter with a Dewalt power screwdriver. This screwdriver and its two batteries get a lot of use. Enough torque to neck turn with.

I will lube it and then deprime and full length resize it with a redding type-S full bushing die, bumping back the shoulder about .002" (I will determine this by measuring with the Larry Willis Digital Headspace Gauge)

Right on the mark. Same process that I do with the Redding type-S. Btw: I like their competition Type-S better than the standard one (I have both) as the Comp one is easy to fine tune 'how deep on the neck your bushing is sizing'. Btw, don't forget to plan for a couple of the nitride neck bushings. And, the S-Type means you get the neck resizing die and a separate body die for the shoulder bump. That wasn't clear to me until I bought my first Redding S-Type die set.

K2: I was mistaken above. you're correct that you can buy it either as a full length including neck sizing or as two separate dies.

[Here is where I'm obviously confused as I noted above my interpretation of the redding type-s full length bushing die. i have seen the comp neck sizing die with the micrometer, and i think that it is awesome, but it is a neck sizing only die. the die i was considering (i think) is a combo body die and neck size bushing die. it says on their website that if you dissasemble it, you can use the die body as a standard body die. do you think i'd be better off having 2 seperate dies instead of one, simply for the fact i can fine tune the neck sizing die with the micrometer?]

K2: I think it's marginally easier with two separate dies (if you have the press stations available anyway).

I will clean it in a rotary tumbler with Stainless Steel Media due to the assumption they come up spotless inside and out.

This is where you and I depart. I think the hassle of the SS media is something I haven't been able to convince myself to do. Granted, the results people get with SS are fantastic. I don't have a source of water or drain in my reloading room so I would have to take over part of our laundry room to do it. Just can't bring myself to do it. I have 2 of the small Dillon vibratory tumblers that I've used for high volume pistol reloading. I get by just fine with cornCob & dillon polish. But, if you don't do the SS media route, you'll want to add primer pocket uniforming to get rid of the carbon deposits. I use a power screwdriver for most of this stuff (generally with Sinclair tools).

K2: you're right, the SS folks' results are pretty impressive. I just can't seem to make it work for my set up, already had my Dillon tumblers for pistol so I'm using what I had.

I will trim on a Giraud Trimmer.

Ditto -- I love my Giraud. But, measure first. With neck sizing and shooting through a bolt gun I get very little stretching. I find that I might have to trim once after fire forming and never again. If I don't trim with my Giraud, I use a power screwdriver (sinclair base) and one of the chamfer/debur tools. I also have a AR10 in .260 for LR and like with any gas gun, those cases need to be trimmed after every firing (generally) due to the hot brass being extracted rather violently. Bolt -- much different.

[With the body die that you are using on station #3, aren't you full length resizing your case (shoulder and body( after you previously neck sized? Another question, if your cases haven't stretched enough to dictate trimming, do you still need to chamfer the edges of the neck in order to seat the bullet properly? Lastly, how did you determine your trim length? Did you measure your chamber size and if so how?]

K2: Yes, I am neck sizing 2x. Once when I neck size/deprime, then I do the body size/bump then pull the case and do my other prep (and priming). That way, I'm assured of more consistent results when/if I trim on the Giraud (it indexes from the shoulder). After my case prep is done, I remove the primer punch rod, and run them through the first stations again. Probably unnecessary but it just flows well for me.

I only recently have gotten the Sinclair shoulder comparator for getting more precise on my shoulder bump. Mostly for my AR, to be honest. I just followed the die set up instructions for my bolt gun and it seems to be bumping it back .001-.002" and I've never had a problem. I've never measured my chamber although I do use the Sinclair bullet seating depth tool for initial OAL work up. So, I guess I just lied a bit as that's exactly what the seating depth tool is measuring. Still, I do it for OAL not for bump. My bolt gun seems to like .015" jump to lands. Btw: I think the Hornady LnL is probably just as good. About a push in price.

Deburring/chamfering if I didn't trim via Giraud: Right, I use my sinclair power adapter base and one of the debur/chamfering handtools (I think mine's a RCBS but they all look similiar). Is this step necessary? I'm not sure it makes a big difference. I can set the bullet in for seating without it tipping over if I don't chamfer.

I will re-lube and then run it through the stages of the progressive press: it will go back through the redding Type-S full bushing die, then get primed, then it will get a powder charge from the dillon powder measure, then the bullet will get seated with a redding competition seating die with micrometer. Voila.

That's exactly what I do. I lube on a lube pad then plink my cases into the case feeder tube 10 at a time. Probably could just throw them into the hopper but that wouldn't save much. Only thing you might want to consider is to anneal the cases after the 3rd firing or so to extend their life. With all my manual stuff, I am not getting the thruput that you state. Realistically I'm probably 50 per hour. Much different experience for LR than the high volume USPSA/3-gun reloading that I do on dedicated 1050s! The results are worth it though. LR reloading is a pain in the ass compared to pistol, no other way to put it.

K2: since I'm moving slower with LR, I don't throw them into the hopper. Just feed ten at a time down the tube. And, I'm usually too lazy to change out the shellplate in the hopper which is usually set up for .45 ACP.

You'll get five reloads without annealing. For my .260 brass that I've put quite a bit of time into, I want 10+ firings so I've stared annealing. Nothing fancy, just use the Redding Tempilaq kit with a torch. Works OK.

I hear you on the time problem. I'm a busy professional with 3 teenagers who also believe the world revolves around their schedules. Easier than a 10-month old but lots of shuttling to/fro. Good luck!

[Thanks I can only imagine what it is like with 3!!! having this one has been... well.... challenging

am i missing something?

Cold beer and tunes...maybe a dillon calendar to stare at. My reloading room is my man cave after all.

[haha yes I call my reloading room my man-cave also. Glad to hear there are so many of us cave men out there. i'm here in Scottsdale Arizona so sometimes when I'm in the Dillon store I see the models from the calendar coming in and out of there. they sure know what their customers like!]

K2: Cathy Rankin is my personal favorite!

[southpaw187]

K2 I can't tell you how helpful this has been. I really appreciate it! Now we just need uncle sam to deliver our tax refunds!!!!

[Stumpnav]

I've loaded a boat load of 223 ammo for High Power on a 550 set up similar to what you've described. It shoots plenty good to clean the targets...if I can do my part. If GMM shoots good enough in your rifle, then you can load good enough ammo on a 550/650. I don't think Federal has a line of guys running single stage presses for their GMM. That being said, I really think you can load better ammo on a single stage, but you have to do the justification. For almost everything we do, ammo on a 550 will not be the lim fac, that's where the shooter comes in.

I run two tool heads. One for prep and one for loading. The prep has a universal decap, a body die, a turning mandrel (to get the neck round), and a neck die. Then I uniform the primer pocket with a Sinclair tool chucked in a drill...more than anything this makes sure all the gunk is out of the pocket so the next primer can be set uniformly. Then a turn through the tumbler. Then primed with the Sinclair hand primer.

Second tool head has another turning mandrel in station 1 to make sure any dings from tumbling are removed...and because something needs to be in station 1. Powder measured with a standard Dillon measure will all of the tune ups. Then, bullets seated with a Redding micrometer seater.

I have the same setup for both 223 and 308. In both I have had great luck with TAC and RL15. Both flow great through the measure and get great results.

The key to shooting better is less time pulling the handle and more time pulling the trigger.