Mixing Standard and Limited Vickers in the same stage

[Juker]

Is it acceptable to have the first 3 strings in a stage Standard Vickers and then switch the last string to Limited Vickers when the whole stage is just one beep of the timer?

[Bill Nesbitt]

Is it acceptable to have the first 3 strings in a stage Standard Vickers and then switch the last string to Limited Vickers when the whole stage is just one beep of the timer?

If the whole stage is only one beep of the timer, then there wouldn't be 4 strings. Perhaps 4 shooting positions?

The short answer to your question is no.

Is this a stage you shot or one you are designing?

[Steve J]

There are only 22 course of fire design rules on pages 12-13 of the rule book. Learn them and live by them. Appendix V - Course Design Rationale should also be reviewed periodically.

We don't have enough details about your stage to be definitive, but the short answer is as long as your follow CoF 7 you should be fine, BUT running a multi-string stage using the same targets and Vickers and taping between strings as required by rule is a huge time consuming bottleneck. It's always best to used Limited Vickers for multi-string stages using the same targets.

CoF 7. Any CoF that requires the shooter to re-engage a target in two (2) or more strings of fire MUST be scored Limited Vickers or scored and taped between strings.

[Juker]

Is it acceptable to have the first 3 strings in a stage Standard Vickers and then switch the last string to Limited Vickers when the whole stage is just one beep of the timer?

If the whole stage is only one beep of the timer, then there wouldn't be 4 strings. Perhaps 4 shooting positions?

The short answer to your question is no.

Is this a stage you shot or one you are designing?

Okay, yes. It would be 4 shooting positions. I misconstrued different shooting positions as strings. I take it each string consists of another start of the timer.

It was a stage I shot at a local league shoot. Our league is based on IDPA rules.

The stage went like this: A dark stage using a flashlight, we are standing at position-1 and draw, light the flash light and shoot 2 targets each that are side by side 5 yards out, then while moving to position-2 engage 2 more targets 2 times each, advance to position-3 and shoot 2 more targets side by side with 2 shots each, reload, then while backing up re-engage position-3 targets with 3 shots each. The targets that were "shot twice",more like best 2 hits scored, we were allowed to shot them Standard Vickers(as many times as we wanted), but the 3 shots on each target at position-3 while backing up we were limited to 3 shots only(Limited Vickers). I took an extra shot and received a procedure.

I can't recall ever shooting a stage that switched up like that. In skimming over the course description, I read unlimited shots for the first 3 positions and didn't catch the change to Limited Vickers for those last shots backing up. I'm at fault for skimming and not pouring over the details. I shouldn't have missed that. Lesson learned, and I won't let that happen again. I can't recall shooting a stage like that before in IDPA and kind of felt like it was a "gottcha". Although, I don't believe that was his intention.

So my question, is it allowed to switch form Standard to Limited Vickers in the same stage with only one start of the timer? I'm going to say no, because it was only one string, as you both point out. I didn't realize a "string" was a restart of the timer. I thought it was re-engaging from the new position.

What do you think?

[Bill Nesbitt]

That stage was only one string. It was not an IDPA legal stage. I call that ROTD, Rules Of The Day. Pronounced rot-ed. When I run across this I find out what they want me to do and I do it even if it is against the rules. Then I decide if I want to come back there. Sometimes you have to go with the flow so you can have a place to shoot. Other times you might be able to help change things so they follow the rules.

Steve gave you the rules about the stage design. I would hope that your match director would follow them, but if it's not an IDPA club it might not happen.

The answer to your original question is still no.

Good luck shooting and make sure you are having fun.

[Juker]

Good deal Bill, thanks. I am having fun. It is not an IDPA club. The MD is trying to base the matches on IDPA rules. He is open to suggestions, and even encourages them, on how to do things better. I'll point this out to him and it will be well received. Match directors and stage designers continue to learn just like shooters do. He's a good guy and wants to do things right.

You wrote "There are only 22 course of fire design rules on pages 12-13 of the rule book. Learn them and live by them. Appendix V - Course Design Rationale should also be reviewed periodically." I will do this with diligence. Thanks.

Juker

[Bill Nesbitt]

Cool. Sounds like everybody is going to be a winner.

[Steve J]

Juker, if the MD is open to suggestions, then strongly suggest that he affiliate with IDPA and follow the rules. I truly believe everyone will benefit from that.