[New Multigun Rule Proposal]

Lets do this point by point.

Jim, i'm not saying I didn't ask for the rule. I was refering to your last statment, that you wanted multi gun to comply at ALL levels.

True, to a point. What I would like is for us to be able to mandate a reload. Occasionally.

When I read your initial remarks, albeit several posts earlier. I thought your intention was to get your local shooters to do reloads. My remarks were aimed at that level,(local).

Yes, but what would be so bad about ALLOWING the course designers to insert a required reload? Keep in mind, I am not asking for a reload that is mandated as after 10 rounds, or at the door. I am asking only that at some point after the start signal, but before engaging the last target. I don’t care if at eh buzzer, you drop a fully loaded mag, reload and start shooting or you reload at the last position, or anywhere in between. This is still free style. We mandate all sorts of restrictions on free style. You can’t shoot from anywhere, only from within the FFZ, you can’t load more than 10 in L10 or production, Revolver allows you to only shoot 6 regardless of the capacity.

I personally feel the current method of heads up shooting, and lack of classes works. [/

Agreed, we shoot this way, although we do pay out on a modified Lewis system.

If you're trying to get people to utilize certain skill sets (reloading) with the rifle, it seems to me that if those people want to do better at matches, then they will do that skill set on thier own. Even owning a Beta mag, doesn't mean you will use it all the time. I just shot the AMU match and never once used my Beta, because there were places that I could load to new 30 rounder, and not lose time. I recall seeing one shooter use a Beta in the match, and that was on a 20 round speed shoot, that was kinda funny to watch, but I understood his reasons.

People tend to practice the skills that they need at a match. If we don’t require a reload with a rifle, why should we practice it? People get really good reloading their shotguns, why? Because they HAVE TO!

Requiring mandatory reloads in a field course, (excuse me if thats not proper verbage) is just dumb (IMO). The place for those is in speed shoots, and thats why those are used so heavily for classifiers.

Ah, we don’t have speed shoots anymore, we have “Short Courses”. Besides, we can’t mandate a reload here either, unless it is a “Standards” course. We will have to disagree that a required reload is “Dumb” I feel it is a part of shooting and a skill that has a place in a match. True enough there are other rule sets that are available besides USPSA, but USPSA is what we are promoting here. There are some good things out there that we could use, there are fun challenging courses of fire that we cannot use because the rules we shoot under in USPSA don’t allow for them. I have shoot matches where you had a staged pistol, slide locked back, two magazines with a total of 14 rounds between them, 6 & 8 as I remember, you shot your rifle and shotgun, then recovered the pistol from a “body”, loaded and engaged 6 targets with two rounds each. You didn’t know which mag had what number of rounds, you either reloaded at 6 or 8 rounds from slidelock. Fair since everyone had to do it. Realistic in that a recovered gun might not have a full load and recovered mags might also be short. We can’t do this in USPSA 3-gun.

My opinion is that a lot of people are only interested in high speed shooting, not in their overall skill sets. I guess a good question would be; Do we agree that this type of stage might be fun? Do we agree that it would test your abilities? Same goes for my idea of a mandated reload. Would being told that at some point, your choice, in the COF, you had to reload be such a bad thing? We aren’t mandating a reload at slidelock, or with retention or reloading behind cover. All I am asking is that we be ALLOWED to require the shooter to reload at some point, again at his discretion.

Jim

Having required reloads in a standards as a skills test makes sense. Requiring a tac load behind cover can even make sense depending upon the context. Arbitrarily requiring a reload somewhere in the course of fire whether you need to or not just doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure that I buy the arguement of required reloads being needed in field courses as skills tests that might be otherwise neglected. It seems more like an excuse to limit the magazine capacity by divisions. Clearly, after all the dicussion and rule references, mandated reloads are not compatible with "freestyle", so what's the answer? Limiting the equipment avilable to different divisions. I hope I'm wrong.

[Question On Rules]

Bipods are out for limited and tactical divisions.

But can you use your range bage as a rest on stages that require going prone?

If shooting from prone you can also gain some stability by using your sling.

[I Must Be Crazy]

It is 16 degrees in B'ham right now and I am getting ready to go set up some stages for a match today. It will be interesting to watch the 1911 guys that have slathered their guns in grease shoot today. Glock? Just took mine out of the dishwasher and put a couple of drops of oil on it.

Why oil it Joe? Just use Jet Dry in the rinse cycle, eh? And yes, you are.

Why would anyone slather their Colt in grease? I doubt you'll see too many problems out of 1911's that are using anything close to a factory ball load.

Watch for puking on the carbine side match though, too much oil on an AR in this weather might cause problems.

Mike

[Rifle Only Match?]

Anyone know any of these guys in Alabama? http://www.scssa.org/

Looks like they are putting together a pretty nice range.

http://www.scssa.org/construction_&_maintenance.htm

Yes, it is a very active club just south of Birmingham in the Hoover area.

[Ft Benning 3 Gun Match]

What a match! The stages were the best. A great balance of speed and accuracy challenges. Props? Hand grenades, launched greandes, boats, the fastest clamshells in the world, and my personal favorite....the bridge.

The best RO's from all over the nation and around the world, a world class range staffed with most polite and disciplined people you can imagine, it was just a pleasure dealing with them all.

As far as the computer crash goes, it no doubt sucked for the stats people but it was a small part of the overall stats effort. Consider that the match website has been up since what, May, June? It was updated regularly there and on BE forum. Everything was on time and in order right up until the last. Even with the crash the finals are there in less than 24 hours. Hats off to the MD for handling it the way he did.

It probably isn't fair for me to say anything about the prize table since I never finish anywhere near the top, other than to say thanks to the sponsors and all the others involved in the effort, but I find it a little hard to get excited about the whole thing when everytime I picture the area, I see those empty boots.

If they choose to have it again and I'm still using air (and fast enough with the application) I'll be there.

Mike

[New Multigun Rule Proposal]

I don't think that anybody that is posting on this thread is looking to kill freestyle. That is just not the case. (though, I do have a concern with that setting a precedent, or diverting from our roots...a bit).

What is being addressed is the lack of ability, that some/many match directors have to get a reload worked into the contest. (Without having to resort to a multiple-string, limited round, Virginia round count style of stage (but, maybe that is what those Standard Exercises are for.)

Let's look at this with a comparison to pistol.

In Open pistol, 170mm mags mean the shooter isn't tested with the reload too much. Sure, we can get them to have to do it with a 32 round cof. Nobody is getting a safe 32 in Open pistol.

In Limited pistol, one of the things that is Limited (more than open) is the length of the magazine. Some where around 20 rounds of 40S&W is the number. That still gives the shooter some options on when and where to reload. But, Limited shooters are forced to consider the reload a lot more than their Open counterparts.

The issue that has been brought up with rifle, is that there is no way to compel shooters into a reload within the confines of current course design and most USPSA shooting bays.

You aren't going to get match directors to continually set up 46 round rifle cof's. They take too long to shoot and score...let alone setup. Too much stuff to break. Not enough space. Etc. (And, then...everybody that wanted to win would look into a Beta.)

My philosophy for our type of shooting is: Competitive shooting, based on practical skills and equipment (or words to that end).

I have a strong belief in freestyle shooting. I also have a strong belief that we need to test basics skill sets. Reloading is such a skill. I think it ought to be tested be able to be tested on "assault" style cof's. That just seems practical.

How do we get there?

- Allow for a mandatory reload within the cof ?

- Set a capacity limitation in "Limited" division ?

- Say forget it, and just use Standard Exercises? (everybody yawn?)

I'd be for leaving them (the reload tests) in Virginia count/standard stages. I doesn't really seem fair to me to compare rifle mag capacity with that of a pistol. Rifles come with more capacity, what is wrong with using it? What is wrong with running stages with no reloads at all? Leave it up to the MD, if he/she wants to test reload skills, let them decide how to do within the match or stage structure using the existing rules.

[Idpa Rules]

[

1911VM: I didn't mean that you started the thread to bash IDPA. If you took it that way, I apologize. A lot of the posts following yours took a negative swing. As with any sport, local clubs do not always follow the national organizations' rules (that goes for all shooting sports). In your case the SO was correct in his call and if questioned, should have shown you the specific rule in the rulebook the tape on the glasses violated and been pleasant about it. Ignore the posts stating that you should attempt to "game" around the rule by methods such as "replacing the lense with a plastic one and roughing it up with sandpaper". Practice a LOT and your eyes will adapt.

Good luck!

This one will head down the same path, but show me the rule on this. No way in the world your gonna argue that scotch tape is a competetion only modification.

Well, I won't argue that scotch tape by itself is a competition only modification. I would say that such a temporary eyeglass modification only used by the individual while shooting would indicate that in this instance that they were modified only for competition.

I doubt I'd make the shooter take the tape off though, I'd probably just give them the option of putting tape on both lens or taking it off of the one. That way it'd be the shooters choice, sort of like freestyle.

Mike

[Rule Question]

Where has all the common sense gone? All this sport needs are more Range Nazis. SOs that are that picky need to get a life. 80% of the folks I know that shoot IDPA use a "competition only gun". IDPA is just a game. Repeat, just a game not training.

If I see someone like your large friend making a good effort to use cover but is challenged by his body type then he will never get a call from me.

I could care less if someone puts tape on his glasses. If that allows him to out shoot me then I just need to practice harder. Tape on the glasses can be a hindrance also. Cuts down on your field of vision.

SOs that make calls like that are usually a little short between the ears and other places.

If an SO who enforces the rules is a range nazi, then what is an SO who doesn't, Mister Rogers with a timer?

You can't have it both ways, or else somebody will start whining about rules being enforced in an inconsistent manner.......again.

If MD's want to grant special dispensations at club matches, I say go for it. At state level and up they need to enforce the rules, all of them, whether they agree with them or not.

If you think that they are too strict, petition Bwana Wilson to change them.

[Rule Question]

What would a “reasonable “ person do….I shoot with a guy who gets procedurals for not using cover, he tries, but his arms are really short, he’s got a little bit of a gut, but he’s just built funny, maybe 300lbs on a 5-9ish frame. He has to stick more than 50% of his body around cover to stick his stubby little arms around cover. I never call him for cover, he’s trying as hard as he can to stay behind walls and such. Lots of Safety Officers call him for cover violations, and they do it without thinking about the entire situation. This rule thing gets carried to far sometimes. Some people will scream that we must follow the rules to the letter, some will say “oh well”, it doesn’t apply to me so I don’t care. Here we say you can’t wear a knee pad on the outside of your pants, but you can wear one on the inside, now what’s up with that?

Somebody figures out a way to do something different/faster, they are labeled a Gamer, like there’s something wrong with thinking smart…yup it’s only a game….

Maybe rule #2 should have been, Use Common Sense....

michaels

Well you have a good point about the use of common sense, but just as sure as you make an exception for a person who is "built funny" or otherwise challenged, somebody else will cry foul when they are not given the same interpretation.

The problem is (if it is a problem) on the one hand some folks don't want scripted stages that stifle their creativity, then on the other you have the IDPA purposes and principles which call for sound tactics, (oh there is that word again) order of target engagement, use of cover shooting dry etc. Trying to square the two can be difficult for the SO, MD and the shooter, es[ecially when all self defense tactics are not universally accepted as sound.

Yes, its just a game and as such it has rules. There are some that I don't like too. Its sort of like traffic laws, some I think are stupid, and useless and put there to annoy me. When I get caught breaking one of them the cop gets to be a jerk for enforcing it even though I know what the rules are.

Mike

Mike

[Rule Question]

This is the type of rule enforcement that kills the sport...

A good friend of mine was trying to shoot in IDPA, he's a former DEA agent who was hurt in a bomb blast on the job. He has no left ear and no hearing on the left side. He was told that he must wear hearing protection on both ears. Ever try to keep hearing protection on your head without an ear? He walks & runs pretty good for having an artifical left foot/lower leg, but was told no use of his Canadian crutch during a course of fire. He shoots most of the time using his strong hand only. The crutch was ruled a "shooting aid"...He's run in at least 3 marathons that I know off, but can't stand still very well yet.

Great game, lousy rule Interpretation....

michaels

Enforcing the rules will kill the sport??? Non-enforcement of the rules will I think come closer to bringing about the sports demise.

Hearing/eye protection is not an option on most ranges, it is a safety rule after all. Its unfortunate that your friend was denied participation. Try some other clubs.

I still say good call on the taped glasses though, its not like they ruled a glass eye was illegal.

Its pretty cheesy to suggest that an SO, any SO would try and penalize competitors to gain a trophy. I've been shooting IDPA since '98 and am sure that I've never seen it anywhere. For damn sure not in Oxford.

[Rule Question]

The only thing I know of that could be applied to that is

E2C (Equipment) must be suitable for and worn in a manner that is appropriate for all day continuous wear.

What a nitpicker.

I guess I better not tell about my glasses with Rx for the sights in one eye, distance in the other any more.

I always knew you must have been cheating when you out-shot me.

This sort of thing is the same thing as wearing knee pads. If you wear them on the outside of your britches they're not legal, if you wear them where they can't be seen they are O.K.

If the R.O. doesn't see any violation, he isn't going to call it, but if he does, he should.

The S.O. made a good call in my opinion.

Of course you could have told him that it was some sort of medical tape to keep your eye from popping out whe you have to go prone.

Mike

[Gun Shop In Chicago Dowtown]

Dear Friends,

thankyou so much for your answers. I would like only to tell that my post was not a joke I am Italian and unfortunately I cannot know the lows of alla your wonderful states, I know just a little of the guns lows of Texas and Oklahoma... so....

thankyou again!

Antonio Ferrari

You might try getting a flight with a connection/layover in someplace like Dallas or Atlanta, you should be able to find your items either of those places.

Good Luck,

Mike

[What's The M1a's Bore To Sight Height For Irons?]

I too have a question on bore height and balistic software. Do I measure from center of the bore to center of the scope, and top of the iron sights to center of the scope?

Centerline of the bore to the center of the scope, or center of the rear aperature.

I keep reading about ballistic software and am curious as to what it is and what it is actually good for?

I too have a question on bore height and balistic software. Do I measure from center of the bore to center of the scope, and top of the iron sights to center of the scope?

Centerline of the bore to the center of the scope, or center of the rear aperature.

I keep reading about ballistic software and am curious as to what it is and what it is actually good for?

[M-14 Scope Mount]

I've got several ex-military M-14's for my Police Department. I would like to outfit one of them with a scope to see how it does. What would be the best scope mount to use?

Any expert advice appreciated.

Just to add - this gun will not be used for competition, just using it as a backup longgun for the department.

I'm not really an expert, but the only mount I'd use that I have tried is the ARMS #18. It is rock solid and the scope returns to zero time after time. Before it I have tried 2 different Springfield mounts and was not pleased with either. HTH

Mike

[2007 Rocky Mountain 3-gun]

I would shoot He-Man if optics were allowed on the rifle. So would many others, I'm sure.

Maybe I just don't get it.

If a person wants to use optics on a rifle, they already have either open or tactical. Whats the deal having optics in HM? Why should age or physical limitations even be considered when creating rules for this or any other category. Its probably an insult to many who already compete in HM or even in the other divisions.

My own view is that HM should be iron sighted .30 cal or larger rifle, iron sighted 12ga pump shotguns and .44 cal or larger pistols, and that all MUST make power factor.

Sure, chronographs are a PITA at a big match, but when you calibrate steel for .55gr out of a 16' barrel you need to do it if only for the HM class or you'll wind up with .30 cal weasel loads and .45's that barely make through the paper.

Mike

[Fault Line In Idpa]

only two rule books in 10 years

Yes but there have been 3 revisions (2 and a final) for the newest rulebook which shook the world.

I have all 3 in .PDF files

Well, in support of IPSC, they update their rules as often as needed to maintain a "Level Playing Field". For me, this is not about IDPA vs USPSA. I am trying to find out why while on the range I hear what I hear, and there are no changes to reflect the feelings and concerns of the IDPA shooters.

What are you hearing?

I shoot both idpa and uspsa and I hear as much dis-satisfaction with one as the other and in both cases from people who are primarily shooters of the the one that they are not bitching about.

Both games have their "purpose" clause, and in my opinion, idpa sticks to theirs where uspsa/ipsc does not.

You don't have to agree with the rules, of either, but you do have to know them and play by them if you are going to play. How hard is that?

We've all gotten questionable calls over the years, it happens in any "sport". If you are getting more than your share in idpa then read the purposes section of the rule book and see if your intent is in line with theirs.

Could be just a "failure to communicate". No matter which game you are in you need to "git your mind right".

[Double Taps With A Shotgun?]

I make an 870 malfunction by pumping it too fast. So the "solution" is to pump slower? Hardly useful advice.

Unless you have something useful to add, I'm done here.

That is interesting. So the answer is to use a heavier/stonger mag spring in order to be able to make it reliable when going really fast. Wouldn't that make it at least marginally slower to load due to the mag spring having more resistance. I wonder if the .2 (or so) saved between shots is worth the added loading time/hazard. I'll have to give it a try.

[What Do You Think Of The Idpa Rules?]

My vote was to burn the book with no hesitation. Most of the IDPA rules are so subjective that they attract jerk SOs like flies to you know what. The cover rules are ambiguous and a bad call waiting to happen. The magazine retention rules are rediculous from a fun or tactical perspective. IDPA matches have become "rules" contests instead of shooting contests. I love the IDPA concept but the rules and the application of the rules has totally ruined IDPA for me and I will likley never shoot another IDPA match because of the rules and because of how hard IDPA tries to bash and be different from IPSC. In a recent survey published in the IDPA journal almost half of IDPA shooters also shot IPSC. This poll shows the majority voting as I did in extreme discontent with the current IDPA rules. Is anybody listening??????

I doubt it. I suppose that I am lucky in that I've not run into the "jerk ROs" that you have experienced.(SO's in IDPA) The rules are what they are, and when someone whose responsibility it is to enforce them does so, it doesn't make them a jerk. That said, I ain't real happy with some of the newer ones either, but I have a book and know what they are, and I also have a choice to participate or not to participate.

Like the people in the poll, I belong to and participate in USPSA competition too and enjoy it, but there are things I don't paticularly care for there to, with regard to the rules. (the silly headless target for one) Like anything else, there are changes we'd all make to suit us better individually and sometimes as a group. I just follow the rules on the ground and cry in my beer later when it doesn't work out, it works as well as crying to anyone else.

[The Smm 3-gun Rules Have Been Revised]

In related news, the new WWI Heavy Metal division rules are causing some controversy. Armand Hammer (shooting with his son Sledge) complained that chosing to shoot American weapons has shortchanged his rifle capacity. "These damned Brits and their 10 shot SMLEs have to be reigned in. My O3A3 has only 5 rounds and its just wrong that a Limey gets twice that when the buzzer goes off. And I don't care if there was a Lend Lease program in effect, they shold have to shoot English double shotguns, not Winchesters." Hammer's own gear consists of a Springfield 03A3, Winchester 1897 with the barrel shroud, and a 1911 (not 1911A1) pistol. Asked about the use of bayonets on the rifle and shotgun, Hammer said this was strictly for authenticity and not as a recoil dampening devise as others have suggested.

Indeed, the Brits are whing too, it seems they are crying foul because of son Sledge's alleged use of poison gas. While the use of gas they say is legal, it seems that Sledge's use of Irish beer with corned beef and cabbage to create the poison violates the country of origin clause in the equipment rules. The Americans allow that the rules are somewhat cloudy in this area, and that they were only trying to make major PF.

[The Smm 3-gun Rules Have Been Revised]

I agree IF we are going to have power factors for Heavy Metal, they should be real power factors.

IMHO the pf for pistol ought to be based on a .45 ACP hardball load. 180 or 185 perhaps? 165 is hardly Heavy Metal. It's more a Def Leppard power factor when we should have a Metallica power factor.

I say let the Glocks and XDs play too!

And I also say, PUMP shotguns only!

It seems HM has gained enough favor to have been awarded a position on the proverbial "slippery slope". It was optics and autos in Arkansas, now .40's and no Glocks? What's next, you can use a nine, but you have to shoot each target four times?

If the division isn't going to reflect the original HM rules/defining qualifications then it should be called something else.

How about "Manilow Metal"

[Alternative Bullet Weights For A 1/12 Twist]

My favorite upper has a Colt 20” 1/12 twist lightweight barrel (a/k/a pencil barrel). I mostly shoot XM193 out of it with good results. I sometimes shoot GA ARMS “Precision Plus” 55 grain rounds on the longer range stages.

There’s discussion on another thread that a 55 grain round won’t reliably knock down a LaRue target at 250+ yards with a center hit. There’re supposed to be some of those shots at Ft. Benning this December.

Assuming that’s true, what will reliably knock down a LaRue target at 250+ that I can shoot our of my 1/12 barrel?

Thanks.

There is another thread that says that max distance will be 200 yds again. It was plenty challenging (for me anyway) at that distance.

[Ft Benning Question For Benelli2]

It's the size of the target not the distance. Usually have at least a 3 moa target at any given distance, as long as that holds true why worry.

True to a point, but I have a lot easier time hitting 3" dots at 100 yards than 12" plates at 400. Especially if the wind is blowing. Or if the elevation is different than where I normally shoot.

Maybe a chicken shoot? Used to hunt bantys with a BB gun when I was a shaver. Lots of fun and they taste like chicken too.

There is an easy answer to this situation. If the LaRue targets are to much for the 55's at that distance, then proper course design would allow for those who needed to shoot them from much closer to do so, while allowing the competitors using rounds with better long (relatively) range performance or are willing to make a head shot from the longer distances to do so as well. That way we all have a choice. If you or I chose poorly....well Jeff already addressed that in the steel calibration rules, eh?