George
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Posts posted by George
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Somehow I am getting this picture in my head of Maxwell Smart (Old TV character from the sixties) getting whacked on the head with the "Cone Of Silence :-)
The right tool for the job is indeed the thing here. If i'm gonna be punching paper & clanging steel at under 400yds, I want a semi-auto .223. Further out than that, or with something other than paper & steel, I'll take my .270 with a 135-150 grain projectile doing about 2800fps.
In high tech circles, the TIM is referred to as the BIM (Biological Input Module) and most malfunctions are traceable to it. In motorcycle racing we used to refer to it as the "Shifter Activator" and once again it is where most problems start (and end).
BTW, I stepped in it first, as is my usual way ;~)
Regards, George
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1/2 MOA is 1.5" @ 300yds.
No rifle is 1/2 MOA without a decent trigger & TIM (Trigger Input Module).
Heavy .223 bullets don't wander round much nowadays at 200-300yds until the wind is real fierce. I used to shoot hi-power with S69's at 2750fps and didn't see wind up to 15-20 mph having much say at 200yds. The 77's fly like they are gyro stabilized out to about 300yds.
I have become a real convert to what a heavy bullet in .223 can do. Check out Glenn Zedickers book The Competitive AR-15 (The Mouse That Roared) http://www.zedicker.com/
In the end it all really depends on the TIM (see above).
First shot is last shot with a rifle if you are doing your job.
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"except that part about deforming innocent Sierra Matchkings"
Hey Kelly, I am actually a little bit kinder to the MatchKings than it would seem. After case prep (trim, etc), I use a Lyman VLD reamer to put a real shallow lead in the case mouth for the bullet The crimp is just enough to flatten the reamed portion against the bullet. I checked by pulling a couple after the crimp and comparing against a couple of uncrimped, and there was no visible difference. The shallow ream lets the case flatten against the jacket instead of turning into it. This method gives me just slightly better accuracy (by a rats ass) than the uncrimped version, and the crimp makes me feel just a tad better (mojo/juju stuff I guess).
BTW, I won the long distance rifle stage at the Area 1 3Gun with a real old "shavetop" AR that held about 1.5 MOA with 55gr ball (Hadn't gotten the JP yet). So yeah, 1.5 MOA works just fine, but I do feel a good bit more confident shooting a 1/2 MOA rifle. Just gotta watch out for overconfidence ;~)
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FWIW.
I have come to my own conclusion regarding sub MOA performance in an IPSC rifle/ammo combo. It is not just desired; it is required! Sure, you can accomplish everything in 3gun using factory ball ammo. You do not need a tack driver to do well either. But you can do it all a little faster with a sub MOA rifle/ammo system when the shooting is at real rifle distances. I believe (1) MOA is the absolute minimum you should accept from your rifle/ammo combo, and closer to 1/2 MOA is better.
I think of the reticle in my scope as the center point of a cone of certainty (COC) that radiates out from the muzzle. The COC is the maximum distance from the crosshair aim-point, at the time of firing, in any direction, that a round will impact (this assumes shooting a zeroed rifle at the zero distance). For a 1 MOA rifle the COC is 1” @ 100yds, 2” @ 200yds, 3” @ 300yds etc. With a sub MOA rifle/ammo combo you will be able to take long shots faster. Why? Because you can spend less time refining the sight picture and still get a guaranteed hit.
Example based on 10” MGM flasher target at 300yds.
A 1.5 MOA rifle/ammo combo has a COC of 4.5” at 300yds. Divide the COC by two and subtract from target diameter. In effect you are now shooting at a 7.75” diameter target, because that is the diameter you have to hold to guarantee a hit. If you hold closer than 2.25” to the edge of the target, you have a reasonable probability of a miss due to random round variances. Therefore a more refined sight picture is required, and that translates to added time (an extra shot is even more time if it becomes necessary). The same scenario plays out with points on upper A/B areas at moderate distance (50-75yds), and full paper targets at long distances (100yds plus)
A 1/2 MOA rifle/ammo combo has a COC of 1.5” at 300yds. That means that the 1/2 MOA system only has to hold inside 9.25” to guarantee a hit. That is a measurable advantage in anyone’s book.
This means a little more than squat at the distances most rifle stages are testing our skills at (I hope that will change sometime soon). But, when those paper targets get out beyond 100yds, and the steel is getting real hard to see without optics, it can mean a very great deal.
Here is a scanned image of a group shot earlier today. It was fired from my open rifle (20" lightweight JP 1:8 bbl), prone with a bipod at 100 yds.
<img src=http://glinder.home.netcom.com/salejpeg/s77at100yds.jpg height="287" width="314" border="0">
The load is a Sierra 77 HPBT (not moly coated) over 24.0 of Varget. Kelly is going to wince, but I do (taper) crimp with a Dillon, die and it does not hurt accuracy in the slightest. In fact, my tests without crimp had the groups opening up a little vertically at 200 yards. I get a 16-18 fps average variance over a chrono with the crimped rounds. The un-crimped rounds gave an 20-24 fps average variance with a few 30+ out. That would seem to account for the increased vertical spread (about 3/8”).
Last diatribe. In retail there are three rules. Location, Location & Location. In competition, it becomes Function, Function & Function. Take my advice and get an ammo gauge that meets, or beats your chamber specifications and check everything in it. I use an L.E Wilson SAAMI spec .223 gauge (Not 5.56mm Nato) for most of my rifles. I use the custom cut gauge that JP Enterprises makes for my JP rifle. Basically, if it doesn’t gravity drop into, and out of the gauge, it doesn’t go into the rifle. You would be surprised at how many factory rounds don’t pass this test.
This is not as simple a subject as I am making it out to be. There are many variances in chamber dimensions and one size does not fit all. But a SAAMI spec gauge is still a good idea. All of my AR’s are various versions of SAAMI .223 specs (the JP rifle I have brings new meaning to the term “tight chamber”). AR’s, keep em clean,, gauge your ammo, and function will follow you wherever you go.
Regards,
(Edited by George at 8:37 pm on Nov. 29, 2002)
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Start here;
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Try this one on for size. Mount an Optima 2000 (a Docter would also be a great choice) right on the scope tube (behind turrets). It doesn't have to vertical, mine is 45 degrees to the right. It's real fast, just tilt your head a fraction and the dot is there. I think it is easier to acquire than the tube type dot sights other folk are using on open rifles. JP Enterprises makes a mount for the Optima that fits 1" diameter scopes.
IMHO a red dot is the fastest close-in sight for an open IPSC rifle. Unless of course, you are Bennie Coolie or Michael Voigt. In which case, box stock AR iron sights, or a real low power variable scope is the hot ticket for the close stuff. Far too! for these guys ;~)
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I wanted to get a 24" heavy bbl on my JP upper, but John Paul recommended that I get the 20" standard lightweight. I am very glad that I listened to him. The upper handles way better with the lighter bbl. The JP 20" lightweight match bbl also shoots better than any longer & heavier bbl I have used before. I am getting 1/2 MOA consistently with Sierra 69's on 25.0gr's of 748, and get just under 1/2 MOA with Sierra 77's on top of 24.0gr's of Varget.
I do all my group shooting at 200yds with this rifle because that is where I like to zero at, and it seems like such a waste to only shoot this rifle at a piddlin' 100yds. I have printed an "Honest To God" 10 shot 3/4" group at 200 yds with the Sierra 77. Not bad for an IPSC rifle. Yeah, I know you don't need that kind of accuracy for 3gunning. I just have to have it anyway, cause that's the kind of guy I am.
I agree with Kelly about match support. These guys really care about the shooting sports. Derrick is a nationally recognized High Power Rifle shooter (Grand Master, I believe), and John Paul is a Master level IPSC shooter. You will always see his name near the top of the rifle standings at the 3gun nationals.
I say, support the folks that support our sport.
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I have been shooting heavy (150 gr) lead bullets in my Glock (17L) for years with good results. My favorite load is 5.4gr AA#7 under a 150gr LSWC. I use a WW magnum small pistol primer and seat to 1.115" OAL. FPS=915, PF=137.
This load works well on steel and has almost no recoil. The 17L has a 5.25" bbl so you may need a slight increase in charge weight to get similar PF with shorter bbl lengths. I get 875 FPS for a 131 PF in my SIG 226 with a 3.5" bbl. A 160gr should give similar results with the proper powder charge adjustment (use a tad less). 875 to 900 FPS is the max you will need to equal 9mm factory hardball PF (140)
I will admit it is an oddball load, but it works great for me. The slower powder makes the recoil impulse real soft, and the magnum primer keeps the velocity consistent with the small powder charge. I get a max spread of 15-20 FPS (906-923 FPS/10 rnds) and the load is real, real accurate. 5.4gr is the lightest load that will cycle my 17L & 226 reliably, and lock the slide back on last round.
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Ok, here is what my JP full house open IPSC upper mated to my lower with JP trigger group installed cost me.
Competition upper (lo-rail) w/ low mass operating system, large diameter handguard, adjustable gas block (under long handguard), 20" lightweight 1:8 stainless match bbl (not the superlight), full house muzzle brake (not the tactical comp). All of the above was $1000 complete.
The full on trigger setup with speed hammer installed in my lower on oversize stainless pins was $250. Add $75 for the Armalite QD scope mount, $50 for the JP on-scope Optima 2000 mount, $200 for a J-Point (Optima 2000 version sold by JP) because you have to have a red dot for the pistol stages we have to shoot rifle on all too often, but that's another diatribe altogether.
I supplied the Harris bipod & Leupold Scope (any high quality low to medium power variable will work here).
This whole setup makes one hell of an open IPSC rifle. Total cost without scope & bipod on my lower was $1500. Strip away everything but the upper and trigger system and you are at $1250 (you have to have the JP trigger/hammer group to have the low mass operating system in the upper).
I think the value here is incredible. When you see his custom machined competition upper, and feel the JP handguard in person, you will be awestruck. When you check the trigger & shoot it, you will realize that these rifles are worth every penny.
Here is a photo
BTW, anything Accuracy Speaks does is equal to JP's stuff in actual usage and ultimate performance. It comes down to look and feel at this point. I do however, believe that the JP recoil reduction system works better as a whole than a comp alone on any other rifle system, just my opinion.
BTW, BTW, IMHO, the JP large diameter handguard does indeed fill the hand completely (Kelly, you may be thinking of the slimmer one that some folks are getting on their JP rifles to use with an exposed gas block and match type iron sights).
BTW, BTW, BTW, the prices quoted above are rounded off to the nearest 50 or 100 bucks, and do not include shipping costs.
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If I was not going to shoot anything heavier than a 68-69 grains or lighter than 50-52 grains, I would choose a 1:9 twist. Like Kelly mentioned, the 1:9 should shoot pretty much anything you can put in the magazine, and IMHO would probably be the best all round choice.
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I used to have to wear a glove on my left hand when I shot long rifle stages with the old free-float handguard I had. It was 1/4" thich aluminum with a couple of slots for cooling. It got hot.
I now have the JP large diameter handguard (covers gas block) and I can shoot all day barelefthanded. It stays cool and looks cool too. It is really light, and has the slickest sling stud setup I have ever seen. 5 Stars *****
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I have a JP trigger group with the speed hammer. It feels no faster (to me anyway) than my tweaked up colt trigger parts were before the JP parts were installed. I have shot a friends AR with one of the AS trigger systems and IMHO the AS & the JP feel about the same. The JP triggers are single stage (typically). The AS system I tried was a two stage.
I thought my old trigger group with tweaked colt parts was very good until I put a finger on the JP and AS rifles. Then I realized how good a trigger can really be. The difference from an OK setup to something like these type of systems is truly unbelievable.
BTW, the JP speed hammer is required if you use the JP Lo-mass operating system with light weight alloy bolt carrier. This system really works! The lo-mass bolt carrier, the adjustable gas system and the reduced throw distance for the bolt all combine to remove cycling impulse. There is next to no recoil impulse left after these systems and the muzzle brake do their job. The JP speed hammer is really only needed to prevent damage to the alloy bolt carrier during cycling.
(Edited by George at 9:30 pm on July 9, 2002)
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Match Fee = $125
Ammo (1000 Rnds +) = $150
Watching me do a select slug drill (3 times) on stage 4 = Priceless
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George,
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By the way, since I was unable to get time off to attend the Superstition Mountain 3Gun this year, I can not in all fairness say that it is not the best 3Gun match going. I will rectify this grievous mistake next year.
One thing I am sure of is that the 3Gun Nationals have not been the best "bang for yer buck" lately. It is great to see 200+ folks at the 3Gun Nationals, but I have been quite disappointed with the stage content. Since it is the "Nationals", I will return.
The Area 1 3Gun was a really good match in my book. Great stages with some actual rifle shooting available on a couple of them. The overall cost (travel & lodging included) was pretty reasonable & the hospitality in the Bend area was second to none. This is also one that I will definitely go back to next year.
Regards,
Geoffrey Linder, TY11141
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I also went to the MGM "Ironman" 3Gun. I had the best time I have ever had at a match. If I could only go to one match next year, this would be it.
On average, I spent as much time shooting any single "Ironman" stage as I did shooting all 12 stages at the 3Gun Nationals.
Slugs at 100 yards! Rifle shots out to 600 yards! Pistol shots at 75 yards! Lotsa reactive targets. It ain't IPSC, it's actually fun!
I expended about 1150 rounds total. Most folks were shooting about 140-150 rounds per stage. Equipment reliability & ammo load bearing systems were the most important factors in making it through this match. For once, it was nice to see more DNF's than DQ's at a match.
IMHO, if you like 3Gunning, then this is by far the best 3Gun match there is.
Geoffrey Linder, TY11141
(Edited by George at 7:58 pm on July 6, 2002)
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Thanks Guys,
Sounds like a pretty simple thing.
I haven't seen a modified one, so I am assuming that the cut would need to be slightly over primer width and parallel (in a vertical manner) with the tube slot.
Regards,
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Hi all,
I am trying to get some info about safety issues concerning the Tecloader shotgun sticks. I have heard scuttlebutt in the past concerning Tecloaders with the wood dowell modification being unsafe because of the extra force that can be generated with the dowell stabilizing the plunger/handle.
All of the shooters I know in my area have been using dowell modified sticks for years with no problems.
I recently read the rules for Superstition Mountain 3Gun and noticed that they will DQ folks using old style speedloaders without a "primer relief cut".
Here is the text from the 2002 Superstition Mountain 3Gun rules regarding shotgun speedloaders and the mysterious "primer relief cut".
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5.5.4.a. Shotgun speedloaders must be the new type, or modified old style with the primer relief cut.
5.5.4.b. Use of old style shotgun speedloaders without the primer relief cut will result in Match disqualification.
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Does anyone know the facts behind this issue?
Thanks,
Q; How Much Accuracy Is Really Needed? A; All You Can Get!
in Rifle - Technical
Posted
"in the context of shooting paper" "we tend to think along the lines of two hits per target to score"
(Pardon the edit, Kurt)
This brings to mind a couple of questions.
A:
How does everyone feel about the Multi Gun Association scoring method of "any two hits", or "one A hit" on paper to "neutralize" a target.
B:
Is "neutralizing" a target as opposed to "shooting" it PC, and who gives a damn about PC anyway?
I have shot a couple of matches scored that way recently and I think I am starting to like the method.
I see noticeable improvements in ease of scoring for the RO's and match staff.
It also seems to allow for some new ways to scr#*% up, and reward yourself, and anyone who knows me knows that I'm always looking for new ways to lose points :~)
Any thoughts out there?
(Yeah, I know this is a bit of a thread drift, but I started the whole mess anyway!)