Drmike
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Posts posted by Drmike
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I have had good luck lately with my Evolution Pro. Primer depths are better. Basically was able to load about 6000 rods yesterday with very little trouble. Today, I took everything down, cleaned and lubed. When I got back to work with it, I started getting a crushed (Federal) primer about every thirty or so. After taking the primer system apart, I could see that the primer punch height was out of adjustment. Adjusted the ramp so it was flush with the bushing and it was better. Readjusted to have it slightly below the bushing which seems better yet. I am curious, though, that the bushing that the punch runs in appears to be slightly lower than the rest of the primer disc body. Is this correct?
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On 9/13/2017 at 4:23 PM, CHA-LEE said:
The answer to that is easy. Use MBX mags and enjoy many years of 100% reliable function.
I switched from Tuned STI mags over to MBX ones when they first came out. I have been using the same set of MBX mags for several years now and they have HEAVY use but still function 100%. Sure I have fed them a steady diet of fresh springs and followers as needed, but the tubes and base pads are still the same. I have only had to readjust the feed lips back to spec a couple of times after getting trampled or dropped hard on the concrete. The outsides of the tubes and base pads are all scratched and nicked up, but the insides still look brand new.
After using the MBX mags for a couple of years I bought another set of MBX mags to have on hand once these initial ones start to screw up. But the initial ones are still functioning reliably so the new ones have been sitting on the shelf for years. Maybe one day the initial ones will eventually give up the ghost, but I don't see that happening any time soon given their proven track record.
The biggest variable I see in people having issued with the MBX magazines is trying to use crappy reloaded ammo in them. If you try to use crappy reloaded ammo it doesn't matter what brand of magazine you use, you will have problems.
When shooting .40 caliber ammo you MUST push though size all the brass before reloading it, then case gauge every single round after its loaded. The people who have congenital "Magazine Problems" are the same ones who refuse to push through size or case gauge their ammo.
Beyond that you need to find the optimal OAL that works best for YOUR gun and magazines. Every barrel is slightly different in the depth and angle of the feed ramp. Every brand of magazine holds the top round at a slightly different height. These two variables combined require that the OAL of the ammo be tuned properly. The best way to verify if the OAL is the correct length is to observe where the tip of the bullet hits the feed ramp when you shoot. The best way to verify this is to use a sharpie marker and black out the feed ramp. Then load up a magazine to full capacity and shoot it at a normal competition speed until its empty. Remove the barrel and observe where on the feed ramp the sharpy marking is scuffed off. If the OAL is correct the scuff marking will be at half way up to three quarters up from the bottom of the ramp. If the scuff mark is lower, the OAL is too short. If the scuff mark is higher, then the OAL is too long. If the scuff marks are random all over the feed ramp, then the ammo is inconsistently made or the feed lips are not within spec.
6 Basic steps to reliable 2011 Magazine feeding.....
Step 1 - Use MBX mags
Step 2 - Push Through size all of the .40 brass before reloading it
Step 3 - Case Gauge all of the ammo after loading it
Step 4 - Tune the OAL properly to hit 1/2 to 3/4 up front the bottom of the barrel feed ramp
Step 5 - Keep an eye on the springs and followers and replace them BEFORE they start causing problems
Step 6 - Enjoy hundreds of thousands of rounds with reliable feeding
Great post. Saved my butt!
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Awesome, thorough description. Sorted out a lot of questions. Thanks!
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On 3/3/2020 at 10:54 AM, CHA-LEE said:
Over the years I have gotten a lot of questions from shooters struggling to improving the feeding reliability of their semi-auto pistols. My experience on this topic is primarily based on the 1911/2011 platform but the same basic strategy applies to every other type of pistol I have owned. I also want to point out that every gun I have owned, even within the same platform, has required tuning of the ammo, mags, or feed ramp depth/angle to produce the proper impact point on the feed ramp. Simply put, there isn’t a magical one solution works for every gun setup. YES, you have to put in the tuning effort to optimize the feeding on EVERY gun you own.
Before you start making changes to your ammo or barrel feed ramp the first thing that you need to standardize are the magazines. I have lost count of how many times a shooter has random feeding problems and they have an inconsistent mixture of magazines brands, springs, followers or whatever. You need to pick ONE brand and vintage of magazines and ONLY use that set of magazines. Every magazine manufacture makes them slightly different than the next manufacture and each type of magazine usually requires a unique ammo setup to function reliably. Even when you have the same brand and vintage of magazines but they have all been “Tuned” by different people/companies can cause issues. Purchase an identical set of magazines that are all “Tuned” exactly the same. Magazine springs and followers don’t last forever. Proactively replace the springs and followers at least a couple times a year to ensure reliable functionality. Lastly you need to maintain the magazines regularly by chemically cleaning the tubes and followers to ensure friction free function. Most importantly, you need to religiously verify and maintain a consistent feed lip width. In my experience the optimal 40 caliber feed lip width is 0.385” and 9mm is 0.345”. This feed lip width produces a very even case wall engagement from front to back between the feed lips and the sidewall of the case. You want the feed lips engaging the sidewall of the case fully from front to back with no gaps. A general rule of thumb that I like to use is that the pointing angle of the case should match the angle of the feed lips. The front to back feed lip width will determine the “Pointing” angle of the case. Optimally the feed lip width should be the same from front to back. To generate this even feed lip to case engagement also means that the case wall needs to be fairly straight. If your brass is bulged or excessively undersized then it will produce an uneven feed lip engagement on the sidewall of the case and it will dramatically change the tipping angle of the bullet as it is stripped out of the magazine during feeding.
After every match, practice, or range session I will fully disassemble every magazine used to clean, inspect, tune, or replace whatever is needed then reassemble the magazine. This is done to ensure they are good to go the next time I use them. I have successfully resolved many shooters inconsistent feeding issues simply by mandating that they standardize on one brand of magazine and proactively maintain them on a much more frequent basis. The magazines are the foundation of reliable feeding. If your mags are all screwed up then it’s a waste of time to try to change other things to solve the issue. Also accept the fact that magazines don’t last forever and eventually you will need to replace them. YES, magazines don’t last forever and you need to throw them away when they stop functioning reliably.
The best “tool” to use in order to gauge the quality of feeding in your pistol is observing where on the barrel feed ramp the tip of the bullet impacts. This can easily be done by looking at the swipe mark on the feed ramp after you shoot a few hundred rounds. The picture shown below is from my Atlas Titan Limited gun in 40 caliber after a 400 round practice session while using four different magazines. You can see that the swipe mark is about three quarters the way up from the bottom of the feed ramp and in a fairly small circular pattern. This is what it should look like when the ammo Overall Length, magazine feed lip width, and brass cases are all setup properly.
You can achieve the same swipe mark evidence by shooting only 10 – 20 rounds if you clean off the barrel feed ramp then use a black sharpie marker to black out the feed ramp. The tip of the bullets will scrape off the black marker wherever it hits. This is actually the best method to start off with when you are trying to figure out what the optimal ammo overall length should be.
The up/down/left/right impact point or the average size of the circle on the feed ramp tells you which aspect of the gun, mag, ammo configuration is having issues. It’s easiest to explain this one axis of impact at a time.
A consistent vertical displacement of the impact point is directly related to the depth of the barrel feed ramp, ammo overall length and magazine feed lip width. As mentioned at the start of this topic, we want all the magazine feed lips setup identical to one another with the case wall even with the angle of the feed lips. So changing the feed lip width shouldn’t be the primary tuning item. The primary tuning item to change the vertical impact point is the Overall Length of the ammo. Lengthening the ammo will raise the impact point and shortening the ammo will lower the impact point. Also keep in mind that the bullet tip profile also has a major effect on the impact point. For example, if you setup the OAL initially with round nose bullets then switch to flat point or hollow point bullets, then the impact point is going to be lower with the flat/hollow point bullets. Just as we need to stick to the same brand and vintage of magazines, you also need to stick to the same brand and type of bullets. The final factor to consider here is that since every gun is slightly different you will likely need to do additional tuning on a different pistol when using the same ammo. A good example of this is having a primary and backup gun. You want the same ammo to produce the same vertical impact point across both guns. The best plan of attack in this scenario is to setup the ammo OAL on whichever gun has the deepest feed ramp. Then modify the feed ramp on the other gun to match the first. Its easy to take away material from a feed ramp. It’s much more work to weld and recut a feed ramp to add more material. Modifying the depth of the barrel feed ramp may be beyond the skill set of most shooters. If you don’t feel comfortable with doing it get it to a qualified gunsmith to do it for you. Keep in mind that the optimal ammo OAL for feeding may also produce a length of ammo that is too long compared to the throating depth of the rifling. The top priority for OAL in a semi auto pistol is to produce reliable feeding by impacting the feed ramp in the correct location. Rifling Throat Depth should be changed to whatever is needed to work with the optimal feeding OAL. I have seen it happen quite often when a barrel has a really shallow rifling throat and the shooter uses that as the OAL limit then battles endless feeding issues because the ammo is too short to feed reliably. If the barrel throating needs to be increased to function with a longer OAL then increase it by getting the barrel reamed.
A consistent horizontal displacement of the impact point is directly related to how the magazine is retained within the grip or the overall left/right pointing angle of the feed lips. I have seen feed lips setup to the correct width, but they are biased to the left or right causing a horizontally displaced impact point on the feed ramp. You need to readjust the left/right pointing angle of the feed lips while also maintaining the correct width. The width of the magazine where the mag catch engages may also be inconsistent causing the whole magazine to be biased to one side causing the consistent horizontal displacement of the bullet impact.
An inconsistent bullet impact circle spot on the feed ramp while using the same magazine is usually a feed lip width issue, or a brass case straightness issue. This could also be caused by worn out magazine springs or follower. Once again, the assumption here is that the magazines are being maintained properly to start off with. If you have a consistent bullet impact circle size but the circle is displaced on the feed ramp from one magazine to the next, then you have a magazine feed lip width or pointing direction issue. In an optimal setup all of the magazines should produce the same size and location of the bullet impact circle on the feed ramp.
Lastly, I also want to point out that the extractor engagement depth and tension also have a major impact on reliable feeding. Your Extractor MUST be setup properly to ensure proper feeding and extraction. There are already a bunch of threads on this forum that cover the proper extractor tuning to promote reliably feeding and extraction for a wide range of different guns or brands of extractors. The search function on this forum is your friend when looking for that information. The reason why I put this extractor tuning requirement last is that even though tuning the extractor properly is a requirement, that effort needs to happen AFTER the proper OAL, mag feed lip, and ammo case straightness tuning has been done. Basically put, if the ammo can’t get stripped out of the magazine and climb the feed ramp effectively, then it really doesn’t matter how the extractor is tuned because it’s going to cause jams anyway before the rim of the case even has the opportunity to get under the extractor hook. Too many shooters focus on tuning the extractor in an attempt to improve feeding when the root cause of the issue is due to the wrong OAL, or poor magazine maintenance issues.
Hopefully this information helps in resolving peoples ammo feeding issues. Let me know if you have any questions.
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On 2/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, slavex said:
call the 800 number and hit 2. they are slammed I know that.
Fine tuning the index adjustment so that the primer probe retractor isn't being contacted by the shellplate in it's stopped position is key to getting that adjusted right, otherwise you end up with errors. It's worth talking to them while you're at the machine and having them guide you through all that.
your swage probably needs that little screw above the microswitch adjusted so that when it's over compressed it triggers the screw. Send pics of the press encountering a primer in the swage station and what the sensor looks like we can diagnose from there. If you're on FB add me, Robert Engh, and I can show you how my machine is running with 147gr bullets. I load at 3000 RPH on my Revo with the primer collator, clutch at 2, index at 1, no slow down or dwell.
Thanks. I will try this and will add you on facebook. (We actually met once, I think at the match in Fort St. John last year.) Much appreciated.
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On 1/23/2021 at 11:56 AM, MountainMan said:
What caliber are you reloading? Was it set up for you when you took delivery or did you install?
Please post a video of the swage station in action wherein it fails to register a ringer or primed case. Please include in the video the shellplate and also the lower portion of the sensor where the two halves come together.
As for the swage sense, I assume you have gone thru the manual and installation guidelines and set the swage height correctly. Obviously if the swage pin is not set high enough, it will never trigger the sensor.
Setting the height is is best done with a halved-piece of brass (cut length wise with a dremel tool) so you can see how high the swage enters the primer pocket. This is in the PDF instructions. It would be good to have a flawed (unswageably small) primer pocket, or a ringer as a 'positive' calibration piece, and a normal deprimed case as a negative calibration piece. Yes you can use an un-de-primed case for that purpose in a pinch. But a true ringered pocket is ideal. If it senses a ringer it will sense a remaining primer. The reverse may not be true if your adjustments are not correct.
One common issue is shellplate flex/deflection. If the shellplate nut is not screwed down enough and the shellplate has too much vertical play, and especially if you are not using a hold down die of some kind at Swage, when the swage pin comes up it just pushes up the brass without meeting enough resistance to trigger the sensor. This would also cause primer height variations and could also influence primer orientation, but mainly primer seating height issues. The shellplate should be just able to be rotated by finger when the tablet is in 'clear shell plate' mode. If you can push down on it with your thumb and see it depress down (against the spring detent ball) then it's not tight enough.
I assume you already checked this, but the sensor adjustment is a small 0.050 allen screw on the 'right' side of the unit. You need to first loosen the 1/4" nut that locks its position. Back out the set screw with a 0.050 allen wrench off the small orange switch a few turns. Tighten the screw until you hear an audible “click” from the orange microswitch (if you do not hear a click the switch may be damaged). Slowly back off the set screw slightly until you hear another audible click (also you can see that the screw is just above the switch and no longer depressing it). Retighten the 1/4" nut. Re-run the system and see if it works correctly.
close up pics and a video are always helpful so in the future, post those with your first post to speed up the process!
My swage sense does not have the nut on the top of the adjustment like the one shown in the manual. I am assuming it is an updated version which only has a hex screw to adjust it. There does not seem to be any movement of the two red plates which would allow the switch to be triggered. The shell plate is adjusted per the manual but I will try tightening it and see if this helps with the primers. Another poster has suggested that my primers may be flipping because of the spring loaded deprimer I am using, however I had been using that since the start and was not having any issue. I believe the primer issues may be from a poorly aligned primer shuttle. More often than not they are jumping up and getting stuck at the base of the primer magazine. I have removed the plastic cover in this area as it was constantly the area of the stoppage.
I am on the road for the next couple of days but will be home on Saturday and will work on your recommendations then. Thanks for your advice.
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On 1/23/2021 at 11:39 AM, MountainMan said:
Drmike,
You have the autodrive on it, I assume, right?
So you have set the height of the primer sensor orientation plunger according to the manual; please post a photo of this for us. Is the plunger free to move up and down when you press lightly with your finger?
One problem that can occur with the primer orientation sensor is if the index pawl is not set correctly and the shellplate is not aligned quite correctly at the end of each cycle and before the cycle begins. The primer orientation sensor triggers at the BEGINNING of each cycle, and if the shellplate is not aligned at that time, the primer sensor pin notes an apparent primer height error and triggers. You can tell if this shellplate pawl adjustment issue is the problem by carefully watching the shellplate (all sensors off, no brass) during the cycling of the press. If the shellplate moves ever so slightly (or more than ever so slightly) when the toolhead alignment pins FIRST enter the shellplate holes, then the shellplate pawl needs to be adjusted so that it is better aligned at the END of each cycle. If that is happening, let me know and I can direct you to the index pawl adjustment area. Mark7 had a link to a dropbox file with a nice video with this but it's been removed and I can't find it quickly on their site. It's a confusing collection of information on that mark7 community site...
Sorry for the delayed response.
The Index pawl was originally out of spec when the machine came to me but is now correctly adjusted. The primer orientation sensor is adjusted per the manual and the indicator pin moves freely, although once a case pops it up it often floats there ( I am told that they all do this).
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On 1/1/2020 at 7:56 PM, slavex said:
I do admit I would love to have a sensor that was detecting upside down primers on the ramp itself, as one of the primers I use are so soft they are not salvageable like Federal and CCI are (yes I pop em out and reuse em)
Hi Slavex, my primer orientation sensor throws constant errors (stops the press every time) while my swage sense never stops it. What is the best way to get throught to Mark 7 for support?
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Hi can any of you please share your settings for the revolution for 9mm 147 grain. (ie, top slow down, bottom slow down, index speed)
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Guys, I just got my Evo pro put together last weekend and am having a couple of problems. First problem is that the primer orientation sensor throws an error and stops the press every time I activate it. I have adjusted it per the instructions, but it doesn’t seem to matter. Also, my swage sense never throws an error, even if there is a primer left in the casing. The swage depth and backer die are set correctly, but it doesn’t seem to trip the switch. Any advice you can give would be appreciated.
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On 5/16/2019 at 8:02 PM, BLUEPSTU said:
I have a TSO as well as an Atlas. I will be honest in that I think the Atlas is a better gun. Of course it is a different style gun. One big thing about owning the Atlas is that is has helped me realize how great the TSO is for it's price. No other gun compares to the TSO in regards to bang for your buck. I believe it would take a gun with the price point of the Atlas to outshine the TSO. Of course this is my opinion, and it only has to matter to me.
I have to agree here. I competed for my first year in Standard IPSC Division with a TSO and loved it. I moved up to STI DVC for twice the money and significant improvements. Now I have a Titan on order. Hard to beat the price point of the TSO, though.
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10 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:
Using www.freightcom.com I had my Evo pro shipped from DAA in PA to Toronto for $195US. Even though MARKIV is in FL it should not cost that much more. Then again I didn’t take insurance.
Thanks MikeyScuba, I will check into that. Got a response today. They have assured me a ship date of January 6th. Kudos to Joe A in Mark 7 sales for working this out for me.
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Rowdy, this is well stated. Like most, I started shooting different pistols, but was drawn to the 1911’s back in the 90’s (and 2011’s just two years ago for competition). Like most, my initial experience was underwhelming, they are not plug and play. Once you have the knowledge to tune your ammunition and maintain the pistol as it is meant to be maintained, the results are more than worth it. Put in the time, that trigger and the ergonomics are worth it!
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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:
That sucks to plow through that many things and not be happy. What I have noticed is there is a very wide discrepancy in what people describe as a problem or working perfectly.
To some who say, "My gun works perfectly when I do X,Y,Z and A,B and C without fail" to others it would be "My gun doesn't work right because I have to do X,Y,Z and A,B and C." So I can understand how someone would feel unhappy with a series of 19/2011 guns.
Why? Because for some people all mechanical things should be plug and play. Your lawn mower should start after sitting all winter in the garage with the same gas it had in it from October. The microwave should cook every time you press a button. In this case, sadly, I think it is tough for some to swallow that spending over 4 grand on a gun doesn't equal a perfectly performing machine for the life of the gun, no matter what you as a user do or introduce into the package.
Do not ride an Aprilia or Ducati if you want Honda like interfaces and maintenance. Do not shoot 9mm 19/2011 guns from custom builders if you think you can shoot any factory ammo you want out of any mag you want and that parts will just drop in and out. They just simply won't. Some enjoy and accept this and some do not. (I fall more into the do not camp). I can see how it would be galling if your first foray made you think all the rest would be like it, as they clearly weren't.
I also no longer own multiple 19/2011 guns, actually having none at all currently. The amount we spend on guns sometimes doesn't equal a similar amount of easy ownership. Certain models of gun take far more owner engagement, especially when shot regularly and in decent volume or rounds. (Every gun is perfect in the safe)
I hope this guy finds a gun owning experience he likes. I also hope the folks who bought his guns got them to run great. (As I've sold a few guns where I very clearly said "I can't make this work, just so you know.")
For anyone new reading this thread, it is unreasonable to expect any 19/2011 gun to take any ammo, any mag, any part and work all the time. Nothing is drop in, everything has to be fitted, finessed and tested.
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On 12/28/2020 at 9:55 AM, CHA-LEE said:
Congrats on your new Atlas Titan purchase!!! Since every gun and shooter is different I would suggest getting a range of recoil springs from 10lb - 13lb so you can tune the muzzle return characteristics to match your grip pressure. The best tool for tuning this is to use slow motion video while shooting the gun to see how the whole gun moves around as the slide snaps back forward. I have a two part video series that talks about this spring tuning stuff on my YouTube channel.
Other than that, you will need to verify that your ammo OAL and Powder drop matches what the Titan needs. I always suggest that people optimize the OAL of the ammo first, then tune the powder drop to achieve the velocity that you desire. I started the below thread that talks about tuning the OAL. Check it out.
Thanks CHA-LEE. I have already viewed the video. I appreciate the great content that you provide, and also took advantage of the free mag with your discount code.
Cheers!
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Well the Mark 7 saga continues on. I ordered a Mark 7 Evolution Pro in late August after spending 3wks trying to figure out why their shipping quotes were almost $1000 to Canada. I was given a ship date of October 10th. On November 23rd, the Lyman Vice President sent out an email saying that everyone who ordered in September (remember mine was ordered in August) would be shipped in the first half of December. Today, I finally got a response to an email saying that they were not getting the case feeders they need to ship mine until mid January. My sales person also slipped and indicated that others are being built while mine sits. I am disgusted by this level of customer service. This company has had my money for 4mos already, and it looks like MAYBE I will see this thing in February some time. In the mean time, my RL1100/Ammobot combination that this was supposed to replace has been running flawlessly. I pointed out to the sales person (who honestly seems like a great guy) that Dillon doesn’t charge your card until they ship the product. They need to consider this.
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On 12/10/2020 at 7:54 AM, Silver_Surfer said:
Sooner or later you will have to re-chrono. Why not load some at 5.4 & 5.5 and chrono just to make sure?
New powder makes it at 5.4gr. 178PF
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13 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:
Sounds like very expensive solutions (swapping guns) instead of just solving the root cause of the FTF/FTE issues which would have been much cheaper and easier to resolve. To each their own I guess.
Cha Lee, after watching your Titan review and reading your book, I purchased a new Titan yesterday to replace one of my STI DVC’s for IPSC standard this year. I have requested the high shielded safeties and an IPSC mag well. My current load is 180gr plated truncated cone over 5.4gr of VVN320 @ 1.18” OAL. Would you recommend any changes to this setup.
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Yup, got it and love it. But with the Dillon, I have to process separately. Not one case of primer drawback in 10000 pieces of 40sw processed
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6 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:
Guys - Only one thought as I read this thread related to primer drawback - not sure if you were aware that Will at FW Arms just introduced a spring loaded decapping die called the Primer Popper that virtually eliminates all primer drawback...I am running one on my EVO and so far it has worked flawlessly. Just thought I would mention as he has the unit on sale right now with free priority shipping....Mark
Sorry Guys - I Just saw where Will posted in the description of this part that he just ran out of stock but will have more in stock next week (around 12/14) when he gets parts back from the plating company. -
Hi, does anyone have any specific data on the change in velocity per tenth of a grain of VV N320 in their 50 loads? I have lost my ladder load info. Last year I had to increase my 180grain load (1.18” oal) from 5.4 to 5.6gr to make chrono. Just did a batch with a new container of powder and they are 80-100fps over what I need. Likely need to drop back to 5.4
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I will try that.
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DDC, this unit might be available for you in the new year, I am waiting on my Mark 7 to arrive, it ships next week. Only issue is that I am in Canada.
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I am wet tumbling with Brass Juice, then drying with a dedicated unit. I am also lubing when I process.
Mark 7 Evolution - General Discussion
in non-Dillon Reloading Equipment
Posted
Update to this topic. After MANY different adjustments and calls back to Mark 7, I have discovered that many (most) of my issues were caused by bent anvils in the brass I was loading. I was pre processing the brass with the Rollsizer Decapper which is awesome, but the decapper pin was set too low and was actually bending the brass when punching the primers out. This caused all kinds of havoc with the primer pockets. I have now reprocessed everything using the primer pocket reamer made by Vincent Peterangelo (bought through Immortobot) and all runs smoothly. Thanks to everyone for their advice along the way