springy
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Posts posted by springy
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So.......you're naming the May match "Snakes on a Plain" ? sorry, my resistance is low
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Dave! Never mind the surgery, Cheryl and I will carry your gear, all you'll have to do is pull the trigger!
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About this 4 moa target thingy.
at 100yds that's a 4 inch target - hardernell!
at 200 it's 8 inches - tough target
at 300 it's 12 inches, I haven't shot a match yet that used anything but 10", so 4 moa would be a little easier than they've ever been.
at 400 it's 16 inches - praise be - I would actually be able to see the target!!
About reset-able long range.
I shot the FN match last year. That's where I learned that LR rifle targets can be knock down, reset-able, and see-able. 10" plates on a rack (with some flat bar at angles to protect the mechanism) with a cord to reset. I understand the plate rack is manufactured by R&R. The plates were painted black (and when shot they stayed black!) with white plastic backing that never showed a hit. The plates were reset with cord. They could have used 1/16" or a little bigger wire rope. No stretch, no drag, no knots untie'ing. Wire rope would work out to 4 or 5 hundred yards. Expense? These are big yearly matches, they will always have the LR rifle targets, so roll the rope up after the match each year and use the same rope each year.
And at 350 yards the black target against the white backer was like it had a spotlight on it. It was absolutely crystal clear from the shooting platform, and from the viewing stand at 400 yards, and I also had no problem seeing the plates go down from the parking lot - 500 yards.
And they stayed black when hit, and they were plainly visible in the morning, the afternoon, and shadowy late afternoon.
If you're concerned about expense, you could set the 16inchers up at 400 yards, and most of the competitors would pay to practice on them - so they could wind up being free!
Hey, it was fun talking with you folks,
michael
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The competitor must have 30 rifle rounds and three magazines of pistol ammunition on their body at all times.
Is there something hiding in the woods that you're not telling us about?
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Practical Marksman Challenge This sounds like fun, but haven't seen a reference to it before. What range is it at, when, application, web page, write-up, cost, directions. Any information would be greatly appreciated. thanks
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The year is rolling on by and I cant find any info on this other than a rumor I heard at the FN tournament. Anybody know if it will take place this year?
The last committment was for either the 1st weekend or the 2nd weekend in November, definately at the South River Gun Club in Conyers, Georgia.
The weekend hasn't been decided yet, trying to arrange access to their 300 yard range.
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No Springy, you are wrong.
ADDED: at most 3 gun matches, only about 1/4 of the targets are paper.
The Horner method is only slightly slower than IMGA because you must talley each non A hit, but you are still not writing down each targets hits on the score sheet.
ADDED......is that like a do-over? Just got home from the FNH-Midway 3gun. 103 paper targets, 54 rifle/pistol shots on steel (includes multiple engagements on the steel). The Benning last year was 68 paper, 48 rifle/pistol shots on steel. The "not writing down each target's hits" is saying there will only be a few targets per shooter that won't be 2 alpha. Maybe on the Super Squad, but I'm thinking the squads with mostly C and B shooters (who make up the bulk of all matches?) will be getting lots of non-alpha hits.
I just happen to like USPSA scoring, and feel it covers all the bases really well, and does it with rewards instead of punishments.
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No Springy, you are wrong.
IMGA scoring on paper targets only require 2 hits or 1 A/B. walk past the target, make sure it has 2 holes and move on. If it only has 1 hole, make sure it is an A or B and move on. It does NOT require scoring each target on the competitors scoresheet. If it has no holes, = 10 second miss. If it has only one and its not an A or B, = 5 second FTN.
whoops, sorry, I was talking about the Benning - .5 added for a "C", 1.5 for a "D", and different if beyond a certain distance. I shoot a few time only matches, and am good to go with the 2 holes nutralizes. And I've shot several matches that use a reduced target (all of the rifle matches I set up use the small USPSA style targets) and I believe that is a great answer to the accuracy problem.
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The beauty of IMGA time+ is that the ROs can quickly review the targets and only have to make a note of penalties... this is way faster, and lets the match organizers run more elaborate and interesting stages because of the time saved.
time+ make note of penalties this is way faster Yep, it's way faster as long as everyone shoots all A's, otherwise you're scoring every target, just like USPSA. And I have (untested) a fear of RO's walking thru a stage and applying multiple - and different - penalties for different hits (based on how far the target is???) at 1600hrs with 2 squads backed up. I believe it would be much fairer for the RO's to record the hits, and stats calculate the penalties - just like USPSA, except that USPSA rewards more points for better accuracy (instead of punishments). I'm starting to get confused - why was it that everyone doesn't like USPSA scoring?
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Round count, "approximately" 150 Rifle, 200 shot, 15 slugs and 200 pistol
Mike Oberman
Match Director
There's a WalMart nearby.........right?
200 shotgun - yee haw!!
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Since Benning is the only one using this scoring system, I guess the only place to address scoring questions would be here?
In Heavy Metal, I shoot a paper target, and if more than 15 yards away I can't see the hit, so I add another hit, but noticed I pulled it a little, and hit it the 3rd time.
When scoring, I've got an "A" hit, a "C" hit, and a "D" hit.
Is it the best 2 shots, like USPSA?
Does the "A" hit nutralize the target and the extra hits don't matter since the target is nutralized?
Is it +.5 for the "C" hit?
Is it +2.0 for the "C" and "D" hits?
Who's responsible for getting the time into the scoring - RO's, or are the hits written like USPSA and scored in stats?
Just to get a handle on HM scoring, what would this very possible scoring question call for?
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Well now, it sure looks like we're all gonna have to aim and squeeze and hit the long ones at this match, or suffer some severe consiquences.
I'm assuming they are actually gonna be visible, sunlight or cloudy, for tactical scope as well as iron, all day long?
And everyone knows that if some of the targets fade into the backround when the sun hits them a certain way, that the match wouldn't be fair to the competitors that paid a small fortune for the priviledge of attending?
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"rather a reflection of the fact that it is a more difficult shot & penalties for misses should be higher than for, say, pistol targets set at bayonet range."
Am I missing something here? Why would you want to do a higher penalty for a harder shot? That means that if you totally goof off and miss the up close bayonet target, that's fine and ok, but if you can't hit the long range target we're gonna nail you.
I'm wondering what percentage of the competitors in the match have access to a range with more than 200 yards to even get a zero for their rifles?
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Been shootin matches for 8 or 10 years now, shootn em, settin em up, runnin em, all that stuff. You got to have good staff and RO's that are actually interested in making it fun and fair for the competitors. The staff has to have a chance to shoot the match in the same relaxed atmosphere as the competitiors. There needs to be well thought out stages, with a good mix of technical and fun. There needs to be lots of prizes so everyone will want to come back next year and win one of the BIG ones. And finally you have to be able to see all the long range rifle targets whether the sun is shining or not, whether it's morning, noon, or late afternoon (otherwise it ain't a fair match!).
Everything about this match was Championship quality. Many thanks for all the hours, days, and weeks of effort it took to put it together for us.
michael and cheryl
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I'm reading some of the "new" rules for the Benning match this year, and it looks like some severe penalties for misses if the target is out at 100 yards or beyond. Why would you add a big penalty for missing a far target, but not for an easy up close target? rule 9.1.1.2
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Couple months ago on the way back to Birmingham from shooting the Cherokee match I got a low right rear tire pressure warning....stopped in Douglsville and found the what I thought nail, aired up the tire and got back home. Go to the local Valvoline service NOT pull the damn thing out so I had to UNSCREW it........to my SURPRISE it was a 2 1/2" X 1/4" machine bolt....how it got in there I will never know as it does NOT have a sharp point on it.....I do not think I could take a hammer and get it back into the tire if I tried......Made the repair....Total cost of Kit $9.38....
As the owner of several trailers, one a 3 axle, I have mucho experience with flats. Always on the rear........the front tire hits it and stands it up, the "next" tire gets
it. Screwdrivers, bolts, any miscelaneous length of steel can wind up rammed thru
the next tire in line.
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If HM is going to be a division in MG, is it also going to be a division in 3gun, or does it remain an optional catagory? If it's an optional catagory, is the PF 320 or 340? Sure glad someone decided to standardize all this, it's much easier to figure out now.
The old 308 iron 20 + 1, 12 ga pump iron 8 + 1, .45 iron 8+1, everything USPSA major was just so confusing!!
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I just spoke with Gary Stevens and he confirmed the pistol must meet single stack rules and must be a .45 ACP (and make major, of course).
That clears it up for me.
Pat-Ky State Multigun will be the largest 3 gun I shoot this year.
Dave
I just read the rule, and it states that any gun that is SS compliant is OK, but it doesn't say that "only" SS compliant guns are allowed.
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Stage design does and don'ts
Never paint long range rifle targets white, this color just plain disapears in many lighting conditions. Black with a white background is the best! Barring that, flourecent orange, green or blue are better than white by far. Always paint steel between squads! and let iron sight and non magnified optics shoot first.
Knock down targets are much better than anyother type even for long range rifle as long as you have a way to reset. This alleviates the friction between the R.O. calling hits and the shooter.
Feel free to chim in! and add to the list and we can all help make 3-gun better. Kurt Miller
.03
I'm a little strange on this stuff......I have my own mig, and have learned to pick up every piece of steel I can lay my hands on.
Absolutely have black targets. It really gets old watching white targets disappear as the day rolls by, and being told it's too bad that I can't see them. A chunk of white corplast (advertising sign) behind the targets would make them the same for everyone to shoot (how novel!). And you don't have to paint them - ever! The hits make them black. The corplast will take hits all day and never show.
A falling target - must be reset. Here's where the mig and lots of scrap steel come in. I'm thinking the flash targets have a bracket on the back. Use that target as a "set on the ground" falling plate. Have a lever behind it to stand it back up, with an operating arm that goes 3 or 4 feet over to the side, and run 1/8" cable up to the firing line. All the cables from all the targets hook up to the same reset site at the firing line. It would take a little while to set up, but now: you got falling targets, that everybody can see all day, that don't need to be painted, that can be shot in any order, and can all be reset by 1 person in about 10 seconds.
All that cable? How many ranges run huge 3gun matches. The cable comes on 600' spools, it's dedicated to the annual match, and you roll it back up on the spool each year.
Somebody has to figure out something with this. Eventually someone is going to get pissed enough to demand the long range be thrown out because the targets were clear this morning and now they're almost invisible.
michael
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Just remember ,Nov. matches are won by July sweat.
Woogie...
woogie, you are soooooooo right on the money!!
and thanks for all your efforts for the sport.
michael
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Start working on your club leadership now, and tell them you want this sandbox to play in. Hopefully they will be responsive.
I'm a club president, USPSA has not notified clubs about this, but you're telling the membership to ask for it? That should make for some interesting shooter's meetings. michael
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The USPSA Board of Directors is considering offering classifications in rifle and in shotgun. Of course this process will take some time while we develop some classification data on which to base the process but if we do not start this, we can never do it. My feeling is that this would broaden the sport such that we could host rifle only or shotgun only matches and give clubs additional match opportunties. We would also have more to offer shooters who for whatever reason do not desire to shoot pistols and this would pave the way for some cross overs from the sporting clays and high power shooters. I also thing the possiblities of new sponsor activity is endless. I would welcome your opinions on this topic and encourage each member of USPSA to contact their Area Director and USPSA President with their comments on this topic.
Charles Bond
Area 6 Director
cvbond1@attglobal.net
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I've seen a couple of references in the posts about problems with grounding a gun during a multi-gun stage. Why not build a box, with a hinged top, that locks
automatically when shut. The shooter finishes with gun #1, places it on safe, in the box, slams the lid, and finishes the stage with gun #2. The RO is the only one with a key to the box. After the stage is finished, the targets scored and pasted, and everyone back up range, the gun is unlocked, retrieved and cleared, and the range is ready for the next shooter. You need a long gun box, and a pistol box. They only need to be built once. They need to accept the gun muzzle down. The time needed to "click" the safety, place the gun in the box, and slam the lid on a multigun stage would have very minimal effect on the HF. michael
FNH USA Midwest 3-Gun NEWS
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
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Yessiree!! The next time I need to engage bad guys out at 200 yards from the top of my ATV with 4 flat tires, they are gonna be in a world of hurt!
Incredible match. RO's that were totally into us doing good, and doing it right, and doing it safely, and enjoying the match....stages that tested us on all the basics plus more....and the weather that was ordered up for the match...were all totally outstanding.
c-ya next year for sure