Jollymon32
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Posts posted by Jollymon32
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Sorry guys, definitely not a troll - just busy dealing with the Kung Flu debacle. I brought this question up because I do not believe in DQ’ing anyone if there is not a rule I can cite. There is no doubt that the shooter flipped the safety and pulled the trigger after the Are You Ready command but before the beep.
Was this an AD? Was he aming at a target? Did he hit a target (no he did not)? Are all questions that obviously I asked myself, but in retrospect do not apply, because the very basis of the definition of AD is not met here.
Someone quoted 8.2.3.1, but this is not a basis for a DQ, the ramifications of 8.2.3.1 is that the shooter is not started until such time that he conforms to that rule.
Another poster mentions 10.5 unsafe gun handling. However that section is very detailed as to what is unsafe gun handling and none of the definitions fit this situation.
Unless there are more specific rulings in the future, although this feels like a DQ, I have to agree with the posters that said that this is simply a false start. Discussions with a good friend of mine who is an RM also points in this direction, he opined:
”Everything about this was safe except he fired... it was an AD, but didn’t break any rules.. what would you do to a pistol shooter, if they heard Are You Ready then 2 seconds later drew and fired? ”
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18 hours ago, broadside72 said:
A wall is assumed to be a solid plane to the ground so if it is in contact with or within the fault lines then it defines the shooting area (2.2.1.2) and can be used for support. The only thing that changed in the new rules is the portion of the wall that extends beyond a shooting area can now be used for support.
2.2.1.2 specifically states “Objects completely
outside the shooting area, regardless of whether they contact the
shooting box, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier, are not part of
the shooting area, except as specified in 10.2.1”The wall in the OP, is completely outside of the shooting area and it contacts the outside of the fault line. Can the wall be used for support?
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Added to the OP that it was a USPSA match.....
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So there are three possibilities: 1) gun is defective 2) safety was not set 3) safety was set and shooter flipped it off and pulled the shot.
i cannot find a rule for a DQ for any of these. Unless, we consider the carbine ‘holstered’ and thus slipping off the safety triggers 10.5.11
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Yeah, it feels like a safety infraction, but there seems to be no rules to justify a DQ, just a false start.
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PCC shooter at a USPSA match, comes to the line, they are issued the MAKE READY command. Shooter fiddles with the PCC, sets the safety, and assumes the start position.
RO issues the ARE YOU READY command, and for some strange reason, before the BEEP, shooter fires off a round that impacts the rear berm (no 180 violation, more than 10' away).
DQ, seems obvious. However, cite a rule for the DQ.
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HELP!
It seems to me that if a COF has forward fault lines and there is a wall whose bottom structure (not supports, think a 6' square wall 6' risers and 6' top and bottom wood pieces) touch the forward fault line that the wall is NOT part of the COF and cannot be used for support. I quote 10.2.1 "...and any object completely outside the fault lines may not be used for support, even if it touches an object that is inside the fault lines."
NROI posted an article on this last week, HOWEVER, in their example (the forward wall with a port), there are no forward fault lines under this wall and as such, under the concept that the wall travels all the way up and down, then it is obvious that the wall is the forward fault line. So no doubt that it is part of the COF.
However, throw in a fault line that touches the leg of the wall on the outside of the fault line...then what?
The prior thought was that if it made contact with the fault lines, it was part of the COF and could be used for support. But It seems to me that this has changed.
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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:
i don't think they need to be creative, just competent. If I pay $60 for a 1-day 8-stage, section match everything really only has to be average after that. 2 RO's per stage, legal but not necessarily elaborate stages, etc.... If I pay $250 for a 3-day 15-18 stage match, I expect to see a good prize table, 3 RO's or more per stage (experienced RO's with a good attitude), things need to run on time, the stages should be more interesting and more sturdily constructed, etc...
I don’t believe a $60 price tag match is seeing a decline in attendace, it’s the $200+ one day match that is seeing the decline. It is those MD’s that are going to have to be creative to justify the cost and raise the value prop.
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12 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:
What you fail to understand is that the consumer doesn't give a s#!t about your costs. The consumer sets the price. If they see your price higher than what they have set, you don't get their money.
Crass, but spot on.
And the underlying reason for this topic. The price ‘they have set’ may have moved downward. This will require MD’s to work creatively on getting the consumer to elevate their ‘set price’ point. Just relying on the argument that ‘costs are high’ to move the consumer’s price point will not be effective if the supply of cheap, 9 stage, L1 matches is plentiful. In this environment, differentiation and raising the value proposition will be required to drive attendance. Obviously, value increases when price is lowered, but there are other ways of increasing the consumer’s perception of value so as to justify a higher price. This where the MD’s need to get creative.
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I followed this issue on Facebook. It was a bit comical; the build up to a solution, big to do about purchasing a CZ to test, making special dies available for sale to run oversize bullets, videos on how to customize press dies or bullet dropper (not sure what), etc. They kept saying it was a CZ issue-ignoring the fact of millions of coated bullets shot through CZ’s that do not lead up barrels- I think they are barking up the wrong tree, it may be the hardness of their lead. Regardless, the hassle of the workarounds are not worth the savings in price and the frustration of cleaning lead off a barrel.
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9 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:
Breaking news: Shooting sports people not yet ready to pay anything above bare minimum. Still prepared to complain about receiving bare minimum type matches.
It’s not their complaining that is notable, it’s their absence.
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So, the reason for the original post was to get some input on what may be happening in the other areas of the country.
I am very close to MD’s in Florida and the Carolinas and I understand the costs and the finances involved in putting on matches. I believe that evolving trends need to be understood and adapted to in order to survive.
In South and Central Florida, the advent of FOR PROFIT clubs putting on 9 quality stages for $30-$35 is what I believe is killing the demand for L2 matches. These L1 matches sell out in hours (100 plus shooters) and the clubs reuse the same stages for USPSA, Two gun, and Action steel during the month with 8 stages of Steel Challenge on the remaining weekend.
If indeed these “monthly L2 matches for $30” are soaking up a lot of the casual shooters, MD’s are going to have to get creative in their value prop to attract the casual shooters to the more expensive L2 matches (in price and cost).
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2020 Florida open - 266 shooters $275, 11 Stages
2019 Florida Open - 332 shooters
2018 Florida Open- 438 shooters
2017 Florida Open - 385 shooters.
*Data from PractiScore
I don’t have the match fees for the previous years, but this being a range I frequent often, I do know the match fee has escalated rapidly every subsequent year.
The ‘chatter’ that I have overheard relates to the advent of the monthly Level 1 matches sporting 8 and 9 quality stages that lower the per stage price to around $3, so that when they see matches at $25 per stage, they balk.
Sure, I get it, at these larger matches there is more competition, better stages, better officiating, etc. But, I believe that a large contingent of shooters don’t care about this, they just want to shoot some stages, and I surmise that it is this large contingent of shooters that have “tuned out” due to high match fees.
My perspective is limited to Florida, what have you seen in other areas of the country?
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14 hours ago, Hoops said:
Yes sir, it was indeed that.
Just curious because i didn't read it in the post. Did you immediately require the shooter to flag his PCC and the shooter completed Stage 2 and the remainder of the match using the chamber flag?
Thank you..............
When I was called, the shooter was on the line with his PCC and under RO supervision, the MR command had been issued. It was on the issuance of the MR command that the RO noticed that there was no flag. At this point, the only remediation was to ensure that the RO verify that at the end of the COF the PCC was flagged. A fellow competitor loaned the shooter a flag.
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1 hour ago, Hoops said:
I sent an email(s) to Troy himself and asked the question of flagging. His response that I got today. You can see my question to Troy and his answer in each email.
Email number 1
Question:
Are chamber flags required when PCC is cased?
Unload and show clear commands includes Flag.
some USPSA shooters are saying rules don’t require flagged when cased. I disagree.
thank you
Answer:
You are correct. See my other email.Troy—Troy McManusDirector, National Range Officers InstituteEmail number 2Question:
Hi,
I sent an earlier email requesting clarification. Today, the subject of required flagging in a cased bag was raging at one of the local matches.
Is there some straightforward way of saying when you step into the shooters box and remove your carbine from your cased bag at Make Ready, that it should be flagged?
I hope this email can get answered.
Answer:
5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at alltimes and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.This rule clearly states that a chamber safety flag must be in place at all times. It also says that it must be visible when the firearm is not cased or covered up. What it does not say is that a flag isn't needed in a case, and the range commands support that. See the entire 8.3.7 section and note the word "must", particularly in 8.3.7.3, "must" holster or flag...The PCC must be flagged before placing it into a case, per the range commands, and therefore, it must come out of the case flagged, and must be flagged while cased.Troy—Troy McManusDirector, National Range Officers InstituteThat's all fine and dandy, but the nature of the original post was not whether it was required, but rather whether not having it was a DQ.
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Gents
Thanks for all the input. Here’s is what I understand:
1) Flagging a PCC is a requirement in both sports
2) In neither of the sports, the failure to flag is considered a DQ. You need to address the issue is all.
I have also learned a powerful lesson for the “DQ first, ask questions later” crowd and that is to ask them “state the DQ rule that you would apply to the event (hint in USPSA it starts with ‘10.’)”.
Thanks!
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Gents
Under SCSA rules, is not having a flag in a carbine a DQ?
Can you quote the rule that makes this a DQ?
I know nothing of SCSA.
Thanks
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17 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:
Is this a comparable situation..
After a stage is shot and the commands of
if clear ,hammer down and holster are given the competitor quickly holsters without dropping the hammer ?
Not exactly the same, I know.
If that occurs, you don’t call the range clear and repeat the command.
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36 minutes ago, broadside72 said:
Who says it is a DQ? It is a correctable condition. It does not need to be corrected in that particular instance since it is being unbagged under direct supervision. But after that, it is supposed to be flagged since the range command requires it. If it is found to be missing later, it needs to be fixed. If it continues to be missing then the MD/RM should address it.
I’m sorry bud, I thought you were responding to the original post.
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Just now, broadside72 said:
So for the very first stage its fine to not have it at make ready assuming he unbags at the line but after that it should be there since it's part of the range commands to flag. Unless the shooter goes to the safe table after every stage and removes it, which would seem strange.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
So it is not the first stage and somehow the RO on the previous stage screwed up and after they ensured the firearm was clear did not follow through to ensure that it was flagged.
Do we DQ the shooter on the next stage? And if you do so, what rule do you state?
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1 minute ago, broadside72 said:
When are you going to have a shooter with a cased/sleeved PCC while you are giving proper range commands? During that command, the PCC is out and in hand at that point.
Well, he is the on deck shooter - no need to take corrective action - being that the only corrective action to take is to ensure the gun is not loaded and put in a flag. But if you were a stickler for the rules, you could take corrective action of having him put a flag in, and then issue the Make Ready command again and he takes the flag out - not sure why you would do that, given that he did not take the firearm out of the bag until the RO issued the Make Ready command (see original post, "uncased on the line, under RO supervision ).
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2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:
The simple answer here is this:
Flag is required
And yet 5.2.1.4 provides for not having a flag: "A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.". It even provides how to address a situation where a flag is not present and the firearm is not in a case or sleeve "Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made"
What the rules do not provide for, anywhere, is a DQ for not having a chamber flag.
In reality the simple answer is to provide the rule that you would quote when DQ'ing the competitor for having an unloaded PCC without a flag.
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5 minutes ago, ADulay said:
Perhaps the confusion came in because the flag IS required, even in the bag, under Steel Challenge (USPSA) rules?
AD
This would make SIGNIFICANT sense as the two who were saying is was a DQ are Steel Challenge competitors (and REAL GOOD competitors at that - most likely GM's).
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1 hour ago, driver8M3 said:
Was that the first stage?
Second stage. I know where you are going with this. And this was inquired into.
PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
That’s a DQ, 10.4.3.
The issue being discussed is a round being discharged after the Are You Ready and before the Beep.