ATLDave
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Posts posted by ATLDave
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You mean the slide stop pin?
Those break a lot on CZ's, but pretty rarely on Tanfoglios. I believe I discussed this with Ben Stoeger in one of his classes last fall and he said he had never broken one.
I have used Tanfo's both for competition (major power factor in LTD) and as a launching pad for 10mm's for woods use and ballistics fun. I have also never broken one. I keep a spare around, but haven't had cause to use it.
There's some stuff on Tanfo's that breaks... the slide stop pins usually aren't on the list.
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16 hours ago, Kixx said:
They might have an advantage in follow up shots, they’re also slower to draw and transition, and most are more difficult to reload as fast as a plastic gun. The DA/SA guns also have the DA shot to deal with. Plastic and metal guns both have trade offs.
I’m pretty sure Max does ok with a plastic gun in CO.
Of course the whole point of the "principle" was that the sport is intended to be "experimental" with equipment - results are supposed to teach us something about what gear works and what gear does not. We added equipment divisions to avoid having EVERYONE forced into open-type guns, but the fundamental concept remains. If steel-framed, DA/SA guns are beating up on polymer striker fired guns, that's a feature, not a bug. We're learning that, all else being equal, the heavy weight and better trigger pull (after the first shot) is marginally more important than the faster gun movement and consistent trigger of the polymer/striker guns. That's part of the objective of the sport.
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I also had to grind a bit on the magwell and even more on the frame to smooth it all out. I this is, for better or worse, "normal."
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22 hours ago, motosapiens said:
you can't tell them to shoot 1-handed, but you can make it pretty dumb for them to NOT shoot one handed. i.e. 'ammo can must be carried in weak hand for all shots from forward shooting area'. A few knuckleheads will try to hold the ammo can in weak hand and keep the weak hand on the gun, but the good rifle shooters will generally just shoot strong-hand-only, and not die from it.
I understand that. My point is that, by rule, they are already treated differently in things like start positions and SHO/WHO procedures. And that's all well and good, but when someone whines about a slightly different PCC start position being unfair or designed to "haze" PCC or starts chanting "PCC is not a crime," it's pretty ridiculous. They're special. They're not treated the same as the other divisions anyway. Most of the differences make the match easier for them. Doing something that is compliant with the language of the rules to return some of the challenge that is otherwise lost is not just OK match design - it is better match design.
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32 minutes ago, teros135 said:
Good points, although we seem to be talking about two separate issues here. One is start POSITION (e.g., hands at sides, gun holstered or PCC at low ready). The other is start LOCATION (where you're standing when you take the start position). .
Having PCC shooters put their gun on a table, then stand exactly where handgun shooters stand, facing exactly the same direction is keeping the same location. Now, allowing PCC shooters to start facing downrange while everyone else has to deal with a turn? THAT's different locations for different divisions - although people think that's "normal."
32 minutes ago, teros135 said:Everybody shoots the same COF. That seems pretty straightforward.
Nope. PCC is special. Everyone else occasionally has to shoot with one hand on the gun; when that is required, it's usually the "guts" of the stage, the main challenge. But PCC is special. You cannot make them shoot one-handed. When everyone else is shooting strong-hand-only, they're shooting freestyle. When everyone else is struggling to control their gun with their weak hand, they are shooting with 3 points of contact.
All the notions that "everyone does the same thing" got broken when PCC was introduced. That doesn't mean it was bad or wrong, but that core concept is inherently out the window for PCC.
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PCC ALMOST ALWAYS has a different start position than handguns. By rule, handgun competitors cannot start with the gun in hand, which is typical for PCC. By rule, PCC shooters cannot start with their gun in possession and facing uprange. PCC is already inherently different in its start positions.
I think putting the PCC on a table or barrel to allow the re-introduction of an uprange/turning start is a very good idea and seems to square entirely with both the spirit and letter of the rules.
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Baffling call, if that's what actually happened. Was there some hard-cover involved? Was there a wall that you were leaning around?
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17 hours ago, haiedras said:
Tg is position insensitive so oal doesn't matter.
Position sensitivity is about how much ignition changes with powder forward or back in case (distance from primer, primarily, and area of powder exposed to briassance of primer).
That is NOT the same thing as shorter lengths increasing pressure. OAL absolutely DOES matter to peak pressure (and, therefore, to some extent velocity), even if the powder is completely position insensitive. Sometimes people try to improve the consistency of position sensitive powders by reducing the space available for the powder to move around by shortening OAL, but this increases initial pressure.
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17 hours ago, DKorn said:
I’m also a big fan of “standing anywhere in the shooting area, facing wherever you want (except pcc - has to be pointed in any safe direction), hands below belt (or relaxed at sides)”. Being able to start anywhere leads to interesting stage planning opportunities.
I like those, too, and often don't even include the "within the shooting area" condition. Except for rare stages where mags, guns, props, or activators are located outside the shooting area and the intention is to make shooters "run errands" during the stage (not a bad concept, but not something you see on more than about 2% of stages), it will almost never make sense to start outside the shooting area.
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More support for the volunteers who run local matches would be good. Some kind of how-to-run-a-USPSA guide would be useful. Yes, some clubs have directors or presidents who basically do it forever, but lots of clubs rotate through volunteers. That means that there's a steady influx of people who have shot USPSA, but never run a USPSA club before, constantly learning how to do things. How to upload scores (much easier than it used to be, to be sure), how to renew membership, how to deal with host ranges, how to source supplies, how to build and maintain props, etc. Rather than forcing every new guy to learn that stuff on his own or hope the old guy remains engaged enough to walk him (or her) through it, how about putting some helpful guides together?
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Are you trying to measure greatness of performance or influence on the course of the sport? Those things often overlap, but the latter criteria would result in the authors of influential books or training schools getting a leg up versus people who were their competitive equal.
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On 11/17/2018 at 6:00 AM, Texas45 said:
. All I ask is don't make up crazy rules for start positions for the PCC. Butt on belt, held with both hands, muzzle down range.
How about all the "crazy rules for start positions" for all the other divisions? Wrists above shoulders? Both hands touching X marks? Hand not on gun? How is asking a PCC to start with one hand off the gun more "crazy" than all the stuff everyone else in the match is having to do?
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Some of the nastiest falls I have seen have been when guys wearing cleats hit wood or concrete or truly hard-pan surfaces. Cleats are meant for turf. If your ranges are all turf, then they may be a good idea. If your ranges have varied surfaces, they may not be the best idea.
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3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:
Stop.
Just stop this, dear entire internet.
I agree. In fact, it's not an "IMPORTANT NOTE." I knew the gun didn't have a round in the chamber the first time the OP pulled the trigger and it didn't go bang. Reading it in advance didn't tell me anything I wasn't going to know via watching the video anyway.
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Consider working with a shot-timer or other beep-maker. A big part of the USPSA draw is reacting to the buzzer. Smoothly cycling through a bunch of reps of a non-pressured draw is probably valuable, but you want to make sure it doesn't all fall apart just because you're going from dead-still to full-speed based on when some outside agency decides to say "go."
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I would add this regarding the hard-cover calls: Watching for holes/splatter/spall on hardcover near the line of shot is a perfect thing for the other RO - the guy with the pad - to watch while the timer-running RO is watching the gun. If a stage has one or more locations where wall or other hardcover hits are probable, then the non-timer RO should put their attention there at the appropriate time (just as they might pay particular attention to the shooter's feet if there is a portion of the stage where faulting is especially likely).
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1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:
penalties or whatever else for not assuming their invalid start position
How would they... what could... huh? Why would they sound the buzzer if they thought (rightly or wrongly) the shooter wasn't in the correct starting position? I don't get it.
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Great post/thread (as usual for a CHA-LEE effort). Regarding #1, I think it is extremely helpful for RO's and MD's to have some discussion about the way the stage is likely to be shot, what "concepts" are involved, etc. If a target is wide open and available from a large number of places in the shooting area, then millimetric precision of its height is unlikley to matter. But if it is a target that is partially obscured by an no-shoot or hard cover some distance away from it, then small deviations in placement can dramatically change the difficulty of the shot or the location that the shooters have to go to in order to shoot it (or shoot it without risk). Perhaps for major matches everything should get witness marks on the sticks, but if time is short, then identifying the small number of targets where location is critical can help RO's focus their attention on making sure that those stay correct.
This isn't limited to paper target locations, of course. Let's say you have a stage where some poppers are arranged in tandem (one behind the other), with the "concept" being that the first popper in line must fall before the second popper is accessible, and the second before the third, and so on. If one of the poppers has a little horizontal slop at the hinge, the RO will need to pay attention when the steel is reset to make sure that the faces of the poppers are lined up enough that one cannot shoot the poppers "out of order." Just calling an RO's attention to this kind of issue in advance can help keep things on-track and equitable. It's unlikely that a re-shoot would even be required for this kind of thing being wrong for one or more shooters, much less result in a toss-out, but it might materially change the way the stage is shot.
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16 hours ago, Derek_Z said:
I keep sending them emails these days, but get no reply yet.
Dagnabbit!
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Is Patriot Defense now set up/willing to do that work?
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On 11/5/2018 at 5:30 PM, JAFO said:
Look at it this way. All pistol shooters have to draw from the holster, and that introduces variability. The possibility of getting a bad grip with the strong hand, incorrect support hand positioning, etc, can all lead to a bad draw. That draw becomes part of their training/practice regimen, just like table pickups and unloaded starts. For PCC, mounting the gun is akin to drawing. If all the starts were already mounted with the muzzle pointing in various directions, that removes a challenge to the shooter. "Stock on belt" helps remedy that, but by requiring the weak hand to be off of the rifle, you add yet another challenge - correct position of the support hand.
That's pretty similar to how I view it. Every other division, BY RULE, has to start with their hands NOT in the firing position on the gun. Removing that takes away a significant part of the challenge from the game. Requiring one hand or the other to be off the gun re-introduces that element. Moreover, with the stock allowed/required to be against the belt, very little additional strength is required. In fact, if the start position requires the strong hand to be off the gun with the stock on belt, that requires much less strength than just holding the gun with both hands while moving.
I would add that we do lots of "muzzle downrange, stock on belt, strong hand relaxed at side (or above shoulder)" at the match I MD. There was initially some grumbling, but once people shot it a few times, they figured it out. Moreover, that position is becoming more common in other matches, and it helps shooters to encounter it frequently in smaller club matches.
One may as well complain about how uprange handgun starts make the sport unsafe or may keep some people with bad knees from being able to participate. This stuff is well within the type of thing that USPSA has always, and I hope always will, pose as a challenge to shooters.
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Bonus in favor of Henning trigger: Much easier re-installation after each detail strip. Just do it.
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The hammer/sear engagement seems to be highly variable from the factory. Some have a ton of creep and some come pretty good. If you happened to draw one with a sub-optimal sear/hammer engagement, you pretty much have to get that addressed to end up with a good trigger. No amount of fooling with other parts will overcome or fix a bad sear/hammer interface.
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I'm pretty sure that Henning (or Henning's guy) did Ben's new Limited guns.
IFG sneak peek
in Tanfoglio (EAA / IFG)
Posted
On the topic of lightened slides and perceptions of recoil, here is an archived set of articles that is pretty interesting. https://web.archive.org/web/20171108122611/http://re-gun.com/tag/flat/
There's a lot of stuff in these, but one key takeaway is that, in a reciprocating-slide handgun, recoil really comes in two components/phases: movement of the gun while the slide is sliding, and movement of the gun when the slide impacts the frame. Playing with recoil spring weights and hammer springs and slide mass can shift the gun's overall movement more into one phase or another (e.g., a stiffer recoil spring will put more force into the frame during the sliding phase, but will slightly reduce the impact at the end of the travel).
How all this stuff plays into perceived recoil has to do (according to the arguments of the linked articles above) with how our brains perceive motion. Basically, if all the motion can be crammed into a space too fast for us to perceive, then it won't "exist" for us in terms of perceived gun movement.