well for me with glock 20 and kkm barrel at 17yrds getting 4" group.But that with resting the gun , just can't seem to keep my group tight when hand held ,group opens right up to 8" or better.don't know if i am pulling trigger,grip on gun when holding,way i stand ,my aim, or fact that i am a lefty,with eye sight not the best.i just guess i need to pratice ,pratice, pratice,refine my loads and make sure thats not adding to it.and read alot on this forum