[Which 1911 45acp Mag for competition?]

Zdog, How exactly is the pistol causing the problem with the mags? I use my Wilson mags with 2 Springer, a Les Bear and Gcup and don't have problems. A bit more info would help.

The speculation that the gun was the problem came as a result that I was using the mags in two different 1911s. One was a 1911 colt model 70 government model and the other was a SA TRP operator with a mag well. It was speculated that one or the other of the two was somehow causing a problem. After considering the problem for a few days now I feel that the following was the problem. Please remember that I am using both the 10 round and the 8 round mags for competition and I frequently had the opportunity to really slam the mags home during a slide lock reload. The problem with the 10 round mags was as described in a previous post from CMC on this subject. The lips were being bent open from a vigorous slide lock reload. The problem with the 8 round Cobra Mags was that I was knocking off or base plates. The base plates on the Cobra Mags are generously wide. If you insert the mags carefully without any side load things are fine, however during a match reload I found that I was putting a side load on the mag when I inserted it causing the wide base of the mag to catch on the bottom of the grip before encountering the mechanical stop thus causing the base to separate.

Here is my personal opinion about 1911 mags:

Wilson....nice mags with wimpy springs. Great customer service.

CMC....OK mags with not so great customer service

Tripp Research....Great mags with great customer service.

ZDog

[Which 1911 45acp Mag for competition?]

I have 6 CMC 10 rounders and 4 CMC Power Mag 10 rounders that I've used for years (10+) with no problems at all. I've never had a feed lip problem with them or any of the 6 CMC 8 rounders I have. I do have to admit that I don't do many speed reloads at slidelock so this may be a big reason why they have held up so well.

Yep....those mags work fine unless you use them for competition. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned a hard speed load at slide lock which I believe is the culprit. The idea of buying Wilson 10 rounders and exchanging them when the lips spread sounds to me like the way to go. As you can see from the email I got from CMC, they don't stand behind this problem with their mags where Wilson apparently does.

ZDog

[Which 1911 45acp Mag for competition?]

I seem to be the only one using them, but I use the Wilson ETM mags with great success. I have some 47d's, CMC powermags and the CMC 10 rounders. I like the base pads on the ETM's and the fact that it says right there in the name that they are TACTICAL. That instantly makes them better than non-tactical ones.

LOL.....You are right....paint it black and give it a name and you can double the price.

[Which 1911 45acp Mag for competition?]

Wilsons. If the feed lips start opening up, i just send them back.

This is a possibility.....or if I buy any mag from Brownells they have a lifetime warranty on things you buy from them. I am looking at the metalform mags. The folks at Tripp Research mentioned this name when I asked what I was going to do now. The said that metalform mags were heat treated and instead of the lips bending they cracked when they got used too much.

When I think about Wilson mags I remember that their springs are less than robust. I remember a call to Wilson customer service when I had a 8 round 47D that would not lock the slide open after the last round. The rep told me to replace the spring and implied that I should do that once a year anyhow. He also told me I could remove the spring and stretch it to solve the problem but that remedy would not last long. I stretched the spring and that solved the problem. That is when I switched to Tripp Research mags that have springs that last, but like I said the problem now is that I am knocking off base pads and spreading the lips on the 10 rounders.

Zdog

[Which 1911 45acp Mag for competition?]

I have been using CMC Shooting Star in 8 & 10 rounds for years(15+) and have never had to do anything to them except maybe clean them once in a while. What kind of problems are you having specifically. There is a lot of knowlege here someone will be able to provide you with a solution.

On the 10 rounders lips spread and they will not fall free. Once you bend them back they will do that often. I emailed cmc support and got the following reply.

Hi Folks, I have 3 of your 10 round 45 acp power mags. 1 does not drop free f...

11/19/10

Reply

CmcMags Tech Support

ZDog

Often, when a magazine that used to fall free of the pistol upon ejection but at some point begins to hang up and cease fall free, the cause is spreading of material in the area of the feed lips. Unfortunately, in the case of high tensil strength spring grade steel like that used in the fabricaton of Power Mags, once the material is heat treated and fatigue causes the material to deform any additional bending or flexing of the material will only weaken the material even more. Therefore, any reforming of the material to bring it back to it's original shape will only result in the material soon deforming again. For this reason CMC does not offer reforming because it does not yield results we can stand behind. Please read and consider the information below and understanding it should give you a clear idea of how to proceed and whether or not it would be appropriate to return the faulty magazine back to the factory for inspection?

Based on our understanding of what you have described, it sounds like the feed lip area of your 10rd mag have spread from metal fatigue resulting from the amount and types of usage.

To maximize service life, CMC's Power Mags are made from the highest grades of 410 stainless steel available then heat treated for optimum hardness to yield ultimate resistance to fatigue and damage from usage. Due to the limitations between the diameter of the .45 cartridges and the width of the magazine well in the pistol receiver, the width/gauge of the material that can be used to produce any 1911 magazine (regardless of brand) is determined by those limitations.

When, for example, rapid/aggressive reloads are implemented with the pistol in the slide lock condition, the feed lips are the only features that retain the full weight of the 10 rounds of .45acp cartridges. 10 rounds of .45acp is a 42.8% increase in the weight of the stack as compared to what the 1911 pistol and it's magazines were originally designed to withstand with 7 round capacity magazines. Multiples of aggressive reloads at slide lock are one of the most common causes of fatigue to 1911 magazines, even more with 10rd mags. Reloads at slide lock are best limited to situations of necessity and/or kept to as much of a minimum as practice standards will allow. Whenever possible, if reloads are made/practiced with the slide forward and in full lock up then no load, whatsoever, is placed on the feed lips. Thus no fatigue and virtually unlimited service life.

Another common way fatigue accumulates is when magazines are dropped on the ground. In this scenario, especially when there are rounds remaining in the magazine, it is just a matter of time before feed lip fatigue is likely to occur.

If any of the above types of usages have occurred then please consider if any of those factors or other types of similarly damaging usages may apply to your magazine(s)? It is not difficult to determine if the causes of magazine failures are related to types of usage and/or abuse. Power Mags are covered by a 3 year warranty against any failures due to materials and/or manufacturing defects. The number code on the top left of the magazines indicates the year of production. If you ever feel that your 10rd mags, that were working fine, have begun to fail as the result of either defective materials or manufacturing; and the magazines are within 3 years of age, then you can return the mags and CMC will always be glad to implement a complete examination and subsequent warranty replacement whenever appropriate.

[Which 1911 45acp Mag for competition?]

I have started knocking the base pads off my 8 round Tripp Cobra mags and also been having problems with their 10 rounds mags as well. The folks there have been great at trying to resolve the issue but they finally gave up and are going to refund my purchase price. I agree with them that either my SA TRP operator or my Colt gov model 70 is causing a problem. So....long story short, I need to find a different mag to use. It has been my experience that the springs are wimpy in the Wilson mags and the lips keep deforming on the CMC stuff. I would welcome suggestions.

[Anyone in Phoenix to polish my forcing cone?]

I use the 11 degree kit from Brownell's for all my guns. There is no magic forcing cone angle, the same as there is no magic muzzle crown angle. What really matters is that it is smooth and concentric to the bore. For the forcing cone you want it not too big and not too small. There are gages for that but it's not real critical to have a certain exact size. If you smooth it out with the 11 degree cutter just till it cleans up you will be fine.

Would you explain how you can clean out a 18 degree forcing cone with a 11 degree cutter please?

ZDog

[Anyone in Phoenix to polish my forcing cone?]

Brownells used to sell a kit with the different cutters and they also had a brass cone that you could put polishing compound on. I recut a 629 for a 11 degree forcing cone. The factory cone was pretty rough but the cutter made it smooth and I never used the brass attachment. It helped tighten the groups with lead bullets.

Glad folks are having some fun.....

The forcing cone on my 625-8 had concentric machine marks. Since I was having lead build up in the forcing cone and not the barrel I decided it wouldn't hurt to polish those marks out. I have learned that you can buy the tools to do this at Brownells for not much money if you don't buy the cutters. I had to ask around to find what the angle was on the 625-8. Some said 11 degrees...some said 18 degrees. Have to know that to buy the right brass tool. I finally sent an email to S&W since I got two different answers from their phone guys. The official answer is 15 to 18 degrees.

Can the forcing cone angle be cut down? I hear that a 11 degree is likely to be more accurate.

ZDog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

I tried using some clays powder....3.5 grains with a 200 precision bullet. Shoots soft and no powder residue. I just tried some mastercaster bullets in tc230 over 3.5 to 3.9 of clays at 1.21 oal. They shoot great but I am still getting a little lead buildup in the forcing cone. The mastercaster bullets are a 14 hardness level. The next batch I order I think I will ask for some softer bullets.

ZDog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

Can anyone confirm that the forcing cone on the 625-8 is 11 degrees?

I believe it's 9 degrees.

Thanks for the reply....I called Colt and got a "we think it is 11 degrees" answer. I pushed him a little and could not get a positive answer. You are the second to reply that it is other than 11 degrees. I think it is time to get the parts from Brownells to hone the forcing cone out to 11 degrees. I talked to a bullet manufacturer that said that changing to 11 degrees was the single best thing I could do for accuracy other than use his bullets...LOL

Thanks,

ZDog

[Anyone in Phoenix to polish my forcing cone?]

Polish a forcing cone???

Thanks everyone.

ZDog

[Anyone in Phoenix to polish my forcing cone?]

Hi Folks,

Anyone know of someone in the Phoenix area who can polish the forcing cone on my 625-8?

Thanks,

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

i use the 200gr. moly bullet and 4.4 WST with OAL of 1.25, but i shoot it in a Glock. no problems with it crapping up the glock factory barrel, i seldom clean it. not tried this load in my 625 or 1955 but expect it to do as well as in the bottom feeder.

I tried some 200 grain mollys over 4.3 of wst in my 625 and had problems with unburned powder. Not as bad as when I tried 231 but still there. Increasing up to 4.7 seemed to solve that problem. I am trying to work up a soft shooting load for use at my club where anything goes. I have several different loads that I am going to try tomorrow.

Zdog

I test fired my 625 today using precision bullets and bear bullets using 5.0 of wst with a couple of different seating depths. I did not have fouling fouling problems or unburnt powder problems. Cleaning the forcing cone seems to have helped reduce the fouling. The down side is that these are fairly stout loads. I am going to try come clays and or solo 1000 to see if I can reduce the load without getting back into the unburned powder in the cylinder problem.

Can anyone confirm that the forcing cone on the 625-8 is 11 degrees?

Thanks,

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

i use the 200gr. moly bullet and 4.4 WST with OAL of 1.25, but i shoot it in a Glock. no problems with it crapping up the glock factory barrel, i seldom clean it. not tried this load in my 625 or 1955 but expect it to do as well as in the bottom feeder.

I tried some 200 grain mollys over 4.3 of wst in my 625 and had problems with unburned powder. Not as bad as when I tried 231 but still there. Increasing up to 4.7 seemed to solve that problem. I am trying to work up a soft shooting load for use at my club where anything goes. I have several different loads that I am going to try tomorrow.

Zdog

[Lee Cast bullet in S&W 625]

In a effort to have a faster reload and keep my sleeping Single Stack fed. I changed my normal cast bullet reload.

I have a six cavity Lee 228 grain 1 radius mold and have had great luck with the bullets in my revolvers.

The one radius design would not chamber reliable in my 1911 Springfield. The Bullet would engage the rifling causing the slide/barrel to not lock into battery. I was using the little crimp grove for a bullet seating gauge. This grove might be for the 45 LC.

So I seated the bullets deeper in my 45 ACP brass until they would drop into my 1911 barrel even with the barrel hood. This was cool as the short rounds loaded real fast in my 625. The Lee taper crimp die was set just slightly past the radius of the bullet.

Over the past two matches, I have had tumbling bullets and leading in my 625.

For some reason the extra bullet jump from the chamber, through the charge hole, into the forcing cone was causing leading that I did not have before. Were talking about 50-60 thousands deeper seating depth.

I don't know if the extra free travel of the bullet or perhaps the Lee factory taper crimp sizing die made the bullet undersized?

Just wanted to share my experience to others who might travel this path.

I shoot precision bullets in my 625 and have been having some fowling problems. In researching that issue I talked to the folks over at Precision and they said, and it is on their web site, do not use the Lee factory crimp die because it causes the bullet to be undersized and all the problems that go with that.

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

My forcing cone looks nasty. It has a build up of power or lead that I am not exactly sure how to get off without buggering the metal. I have a Lewis lead remover and a kit to polish the forcing cone otw from Brownells just to cover my bases.

To get the crud out, wrap a piece of copper "Chore-Boy" pad around an old bore brush. It works quicker and faster than the Lewis tool. There have been various threads about cleaning preferences.

I also want to try some Clays powder and see what that does.

A little more thread drift. Try Solo 1000 with Precision bullets. Soft shooting and very little smoke.

Rob

Are you shooting 45acp and if so are they 200 or 230 with the s1000 powder and if so again,,,,what is recipe?

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

I've used lots of Precision black bullets, in both .45 and 9mm. If you are talking about the residue in the barrel (not unburned powder in the cylinder), don't sweat it. In my experience it gets to a certain point and then stops accumulating. I haven't seen any deterimental effects from it. As long as you're not cutting the coating with your crimp, you should be good.

I talked to Dave over at Precision bullets and he said not to sweat the crimp resizing the bullet down to .4515 as long as it did not shave or disturb the Molly. Also he reminded me not to use the Lee factory crimp die because it would under size the bullet. I am using a Dillon Square deal press so no problem there. He also offered a couple of other maybe's about the fouling. If the crimp was allowing the remaining bullets in the cylinder to move either forwards or backwards that would shave the Molly and cause fouling. Yes, he said they will move either way if the crimp was not tight enough. Dave also suggested a crimp down to 468 or 469 on his 45 acp stuff. Second he advised a close look at the forcing cone. Machine marks or other imperfections would also cause fouling problems. My forcing cone looks nasty. It has a build up of power or lead that I am not exactly sure how to get off without buggering the metal. I have a Lewis lead remover and a kit to polish the forcing cone otw from Brownells just to cover my bases. I also want to try some Clays powder and see what that does.

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

Your comment about the fouling could be coming from "blow by" is more appropriate for bare lead bullets where the sides of the bullet are bare lead that can be easily flame cut and foul the bore if the bullet does not obturate. Precision bullets may foul more with poor obturation too. There is nothing wrong with upping the powder charge to see what happens though.

I'd suggest taking your loads through a wide spectrum of powder charges to near book max for your weight bullet. That way you get the experience of seeing how the loads react to different powder charges. It takes more bullets and money but you learn more. You may see fouling gets reduced as you go up in charges and you may see fouling increase but at least you will see what happens.

Like alot of guys on this forum probably do, I'm loading alot for major power factor these days. With bare lead I certainly see more fouling on light loads if I start too far below major power factor. I think it's similar for the Precisions but I have not worked up too many loads for moly bullets yet. The range of fouling with precison bullets has been tighter and cleaner compared to lead.

I was just going to call precision and see what they have to say. Thanks for you thoughts.

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

What are you useing for a crimp die? If the base of your bullet is being resized, this could be the problem. The lead can be resized after it's been seated but it won't expand back to the original size. This would affect the bullet sealing to the barrel (fouling) and could effect you FPS readings toward making Major PF. If you're useing a Lee Factory Crimp or Carbide Crimp die, I would recommend that it be replace with one that only crimps the case. Hope this helps.

I am using a Dillon Square Deal press. I don't have any choice as to which die to use. The base of the bullet is definitly sized down to .4515 where the main body of the bullet remains 4542. I have already been warned about using the Lee Facotry Crimp Die by the folks over at Precision Bullets for that very reason. I may have to call Dillon and talk to them.

Thanks,

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

WST needs to make some pressure to burn clean. It's really better with 230's. Try a 1.200" coal with 4.7 gr. You may need to add more powder than that, like going up to 5.0+ gr but try 4.7 first. I use WST with 230 JHP's for pins and 4.7 gr is the minimum I load.

I reset the coal to 1.15 with the 4.7 of WST. The rounds shot fine and the cylinder stayed clean, that is, no unburned powder, but the barrel was nasty with what I believe to be Molly. The next poster suggested I pull a bullet and see of the Molly had been disturbed by the crimp. The answer is no. The whole base of the bullet was re-sized down but the Molly had not been cut. I may be getting blow by because the load is not hot enough.

Thanks,

Zdog

[Load for WST, 200 grain precision 625-8]

I am new to revolver shooting and am having problems working up a load for my 625-8. I have lots of WST and Precision RNFP 200 grain bullets. My problem is fouling in the barrel. I have tried 4.0 to 4.7 of WST and am not close to seeing the "I don't ever clean my revolver" results. I can drop the 200 grain bullets through the cylinder without any problem. I bought this gun used so I don't know what previous problems it may have had. I appears to have had little use.

So if anyone has a load for these components I would appreciate a hint. I have been using an coal of 1.25 and running these rounds through a Dillon square deal press. I have the crimp set to one flat past where I can move the bullet by pushing on the head of the round against my bench. I don't need to make major but an looking for an easy shooting round for the friendly competitions at my club.

Thanks,

Zdog