JAFO
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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:
In your reading would it matter if after the reload, the shooter shot T3 3 times then shot T2 2 times then T1 2 times in that sequence? as opposed to T3 1 shot then T1 2 shots, etc.
I think that was the originally posed question. 2xT1, 2xT2, 1xT3 - Reload - 3xT3, 2xT2, 2xT1.
In the first half of the stage (before the reload), the shooter fired fewer than required on T3, but not more than required on any other targets. After the reload, the shooter fired more than required on T3, but not fewer than required on any other target. The stacking clarification requires both - too many on one, and too few on another.
So the shooter failed to reload after engaging T1-T3 with 2 rounds each (he reloaded after T1-T2 w/ 2 rds, but T3 w/ 1rd). If he had reloaded, shot T3 once, reloaded again, then shot T1-T3 with 2 shots each, then no penalty. As it stands, he failed to reload after the second shot on T3, so 6 procedurals for failing to reload at the proper time.
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While 10.2.2.1 prohibits assessing penalties for number of shots fired, it does so because it states that penalties for that are covered in other rules. So I don't think you can use 10.2.2.1 to preclude assessing the per shot fired penalties from 10.2.4 for performing the mandatory reload at the incorrect time. Had the shooter reloaded again after re-engaging T3 for his second shot, there would be no penalties.
The stacking example in the rewritten rule has the shooter firing more than the required number of shots at one target before the reload , while at the same time fewer than required at the other. That isn't the case here, as the shooter did not fire more than the required number of shots before the reload, and did not fire fewer than required after the reload. If our hypothetical run had the shooter firing 4 shots at T1, 2 shots at T2, and no shots at T3 before the reload, I'd agree with stacking. But in this case, I think it's a matter of not reloading when required.
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21 minutes ago, DKorn said:
I think it’s interesting to do a variety of start positions without getting too crazy.
-Stock on belt pointing in any safe direction
-Stock on belt pointing at a marker
-low ready pointing in any safe direction
-low ready pointing at a maker
-table start
etc
And of of course these can all be loaded or unloaded.
The running joke at my club is if you really wanted to screw with PCC shooters, have them start with all magazines unloaded.
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3 hours ago, Thomas H said:
I"ve seen a number of false starts (where the shooter reacted to an outside influence that wasn't the start signal) when they realized it wasn't the timer AFTER they had moved their hands quickly and sharply, but before they had drawn the gun. It was obviously a beep from another bay, or an extraneous noise, etc---and obviously they thought it was the start signal but then realized it wasn't before they had completed the draw.
I don't want to give the a penalty for that, just because they managed to realize their error quickly. By that way of thinking, if someone realizes they made a false start, we are REQUIRING them to continue their draw just to make sure they don't get penalized for a completely reasonable mistake.
"The draw" is not the beginning of an attempt at a COF. Heck, by that measure any distance table starts would require you to move to the table and pick up the gun before it could be called a false start.
It always seemed to me that "false start" and "creeping" situations are easy to tell apart due to the speed difference. Creeping is slow---trying to move to a move advantageous position (and out of the correct start position) before the beep. A false start is obviously---it is fast, and the competitor is going for their gun.
It irks me that we'll penalize people for quickly realizing that they started based on an extraneous outside noise.
I always viewed creeping as slow movement as well (note my example earlier in this thread). But the common sense definition of creeping isn't jiving with the NROI interpretation in the Front Sight article linked above. In it, Troy states that what we are discussing as "creeping" - that slow movement between Standby and the buzzer - is simply the shooter moving out of the start position, and they should just be reset to the proper position prior to reissuing the Standby command. By that reasoning, there is never going to be a creeping penalty, because the slow movement should be noticed by the RO and the shooter not started. That especially seems true if we are to consider any quick movement towards the gun as a false start and not creeping.
Troy's explanation seems to indicate that quick movement towards the gun constitutes creeping, while a false start involves more - moving away from the start position, drawing the gun, even firing on the first target. I'd be happy to go back to my original interpretation, but it seems out of line with what we're expected to be doing.
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37 minutes ago, d_striker said:
Check out pg 6 in the Sep/Oct Front Sight. And I'm not buying the RO's rationale that he couldn't stop the shooter because the buzzer went off.
Judging from that article, I would not have been able to assess a creeping procedural to the shooter who kept drifting his hands down after Standby. OK, I get that.
But it also considers a false start when the shooter starts his/her attempt without a start signal being issued by the RO. Therefore, if they jump the signal at the same time you hit the button on the timer, it's creeping.
From the article:
"That means that the competitor may draw or retrieve their gun, and may sometimes even fire a shot or two without having received the start signal from the Range Officer."
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1 hour ago, d_striker said:
I would consider it a perfect example of a false start.
Ill ask you you the same question. Where in the rules does it state that you can’t stop a shooter after the buzzer goes off?
The creeping rule is there for a reason. If you gave everyone a restart anytime they move early, there would be no need for the rule. Also, a false start is defined in the glossary as "Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the "Start signal". So I wouldn't consider it a false start unless the shooter draws the gun.
The only time I almost gave a creeping procedural was to a shooter who kept drifting their hands downward from a surrender start after Standby. I warned him once, had him reset his hands and gave AYR/Standby again. When he started drifting down again I gave him a second warning and told him he'd get a procedural if he did it again. Technically, I could have given him the procedural the first time, but I wanted to make sure he knew he was doing it.
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If the RO felt he was pushing the button at the same time as the competitor started moving towards the gun, then yes.
If the RO saw the movement, waited for him to move back, and then started the shooter and assessed the procedural, I would not have agreed with that.
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The rule you quoted isn't the rule that was used to assess the procedural, though. Rule 10.2.6 simply states "moving...at the start signal...". While I agree it would have been better for the RO to notice and not hit the buzzer, creeping and a false start are two different things. Since the shooter didn't draw, it's not a false start.
10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty.
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3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:
2 provide a soft cover buffer to any down range prop. At my home club we normally place a soft cover barrel stack (declared as such in the wsb) at the end of down range walls concealing targets this does 2 things, first it makes for consistent scoring, second it greatly reduces the wear on walls.
We have used no-shoots on walls before, but I would think a soft cover barrel stack might cause some scoring issues due to misshapen holes/tears for shots passing through a barrel. Do you see those types of issues with a soft cover stack?
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I also see #2 the most. From past experience with different shooters at our local matches, I'd also add this...
Issue: Not accounting for different shooter height and ability during setup/walk-through, which can result in match delays, unanticipated shots over the berm, or shoot-throughs. The shorter height of a junior shooter, wheelchair-bound shooter, or other vertically-challenged adult on something like a double-set drop-turner can lead to potential shots over the berm. Like-wise, the same shooters can have issues shooting at close targets over 4' vision barrier walls or even through high ports. Alternately, not accounting for the lean potential of very tall shooters can create the possibility of a shoot-through around a wall that may not be obvious to a shorter shooter.
Solution: Make sure walk-throughs take into account height perspectives other than the person performing the walk-through. If a step needs to be added for a low wall or high port, do so before the match starts, rather than adding a prop midway through a match that half the shooters did not have available. If wheelchair-bound or otherwise handicapped shooters are a possibility, have any potential Special Penalties decided beforehand for shots they are not able to make. Also take those shooters into account regarding the width of shooting areas.
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1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:
I’m going to weld a couple of colt mags together, I think. 32+10 is too difficult to consistently seat on a closed bolt... til you strip more than 3-4 rounds out of it.
I’d like to have 45 or so on an unloaded start, and to seat easily, I’d want a mag capacity of 50-55 rounds so it clicks right in nice and easy because it’s downloaded 10 rounds.
I download my 47's to 45, and I hadn't had any issues up until that stage. I think because the distance between arrays was shorter on that stage that I rushed it.
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Apologies for keeping the thread drift going.
I am going to add some skate tape to the body of my large mags to help with seating. I recently shot a high round count match where even PCCs were reloading. I was reloading from a 33-rd to my 47. On one stage my hand slipped a bit and I didn't seat the mag fully on a closed bolt, which resulted in a "Bang! Thud!" as the mag hit the dirt after the next shot. Thankfully I had small spares on my belt to finish the stage.
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On 11/10/2018 at 3:51 PM, Doublehelix said:
I am hoping to find a loophole!
Please don't. People constantly reinterpreting to find loopholes is what lead to the Production rules being changed to Limited Lite.
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Choose one that suits where you want the optic to sit. The GG&G, for example, holds the optic above the top rail. The Warne will hold it to the side of the top rail.
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36 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:
Thanks for the link.
So the WSB states the reload just has to happen between T1 and T2/T3. Don't see how they could possibly assess a procedural for reloading in the wrong order.
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On 11/8/2018 at 4:25 PM, RJH said:
I agree, but think you quoted the wrong guy
It sounded so wonky, I assumed it was a local match, where the MD and RM are often one and the same.
I tried to find the Nationals stages online, but couldn't. I'd really like to see the WSB wording.
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3 minutes ago, RJH said:
You should have called the RM over
If the person scoring you was a host club member and/or RO, I'd still let the MD know. That's a gross scoring error and the person should be educated as such.
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On 11/3/2018 at 10:35 PM, MrPan said:
What uppers do you have on your ke lowers, sorry to revive this thread from the dead but can't find anyone else who has mentioned anything about ke in ever
I have an NFA upper on a standard (non-ambi) KE lower.
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Look at it this way. All pistol shooters have to draw from the holster, and that introduces variability. The possibility of getting a bad grip with the strong hand, incorrect support hand positioning, etc, can all lead to a bad draw. That draw becomes part of their training/practice regimen, just like table pickups and unloaded starts. For PCC, mounting the gun is akin to drawing. If all the starts were already mounted with the muzzle pointing in various directions, that removes a challenge to the shooter. "Stock on belt" helps remedy that, but by requiring the weak hand to be off of the rifle, you add yet another challenge - correct position of the support hand.
The match that started this thread drift didn't use "stock on belt, weak hand at side" for every stage. I think it was two out of seven. The others used a mix of low ready, muzzle on X, and stock on belt (held with both hands). It's just variety and added challenge to the shooter at the "draw".
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56 minutes ago, Nitro1 said:
Has anyone tried the taccom short stroke system?
Lots of discussion on it in this thread: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/264964-jp-jumps-on-the-short-stroke-bandwagon/
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3 hours ago, thelaserman said:
Tagging onto this thread... Now that we have more options for stippling/grip tape, is it legal to stipple or grip tape the Frame in front of the trigger guard, where your thumb rests? I'm not talking about adding a rest just some traction.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Yep. They removed the reference to Appendix E4 with the February update of App D4.
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11 hours ago, Underwood said:
I shot an outlaw match last weekend and they had some stages where PCC butt stock on hip and weakhand at relaxed at side.. That was a new one for me.
I was about to say, "Our club uses that start position sometimes," then I realized you were talking about our Hosefest!!
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Same thing happened with a PCC shooter right after the Division started. He didn't get DQ'd at the time because he kept control of the gun. But after the run, we were discussing it and realized he should have been DQ'd for failing to apply the safety when he released it to get up.
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2 hours ago, HoMiE said:
What powder are you using? I shoot around 138pf out of pcc and I’m getting 130 pf out of my pistols.
With 3.4gr of Titegroup and 125gr Blue Bullets, I get 143 PF from my PCC and 126 PF out of my X5 Allround. My current PCC load is 3.2gr, which gives me 131 PF (I was slightly off in remembering my PF). I didn't bother chrono'ing that load in the X5 because I knew it would be sub-minor.
Starting Position "standing in box"
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
The reality is that, despite your obvious disagreement, NROI determined a while ago (for reasons not everyone agrees with or understands) that one foot in/one foot out is OK for the purposes of a start position. I think the original discussion centered around one foot being inside the shooting area when the WSB said "Starting outside the shooting area." But it has been applied in the reverse, as it is here. I can't remember where it was published. Perhaps in Front Sight, since it's not listed in the Rulings. I didn't agree with it then, and I still don't. But those who read it will use it to take advantage of loosely written WSBs.
We use start sticks instead of boxes, and simply require toes or heels touching the stick. Or sometimes just let the shooter start anywhere in the shooting area.
As for the rest of the body position at the start, I was always under the assumption that telling someone where to start (location - heels/toes on marks/in shooting area/etc) was separate from how to start (head position/hand position). If all you specify is where, then the default applies for facing downrange, hands relaxed at sides. If you include anything else regarding what direction you face or where your hands are, the default is null and void and the shooter is free to do anything you did not specifically state in the WSB. Am I wrong in thinking this?