[anybody been in the military?]

First, are your for real? If your original post is real, I'm surprised you weren't fired long ago and I'm glad you weren't working on airliners! I think you should join the military for the honor of serving, not because you need a job. I know some (maybe many) have joined and will continue to join because they have little education, no training, or otherwise see no other options, not because it was honorable but at least they did their duty.

1. Yes, I was in the USAF for 8 yrs 3 mos. First I was enlisted then completed my degree and was commissioned.

2. I was in during peace time (1982 - 1990) so no active "war" mentality. On the whole it was a good experience and I feel every able body person has a duty to serve.

3. If you really truly have the personality you described in your original post, you won't like the military. There are a metric-butt ton of regulations, procedures, processes, rules, etc, etc., etc. If you have a hard time following a PM schedule on some production machines because you think it’s not necessary, you may find yourself very unhappy. If you don't learn the lessons of discipline and team work, figure out how to follow instructions even when you don't like them, and take to hart an attitude of community with your fellow solders/sailors/marines/airmen you'll not do well. With your current attitude, if you end up in a maintenance unit, you'll probably get someone, or a bunch of someone's killed. I can see the incident report now, "a Blackhawk crashed and killed 13 soldiers: cause determined to be improper maintenance."

4. If you allow yourself to learn the lessons to be taught, you can succeed and go far. If not, well then good luck.

[9mm Major Load Data]

FullRace,

Ambiant temp was 90+ deg, shooting from a shaded position.

To keep a 1.17 COL I'll need to toss the 9mm spaces out and get new springs/followers. Not a big deal, just a pain in the a$$.

Thanks,

Rob

[9mm Major Load Data]

Roger that G-ManBart. With the general pressure concerns with 9mm Major, I'm just casting about for ideas before I redevelop loads at a new COL.

Of the loads presentenced in this thread, using that powder, I'd seen COL's of 1.16 and 1.17, both had given acceptable velocity / PF at nearly at nearly the same levels, so I picked 1.17 as the lesser of the two peak pressure evil’s. BTW, that length works ok in 2 of my 4 mags. I had only tested it in one mag prior to the range trip, imagine my surprise!

I guess the real question is, will a COL reduction of 0.01 or 0.015 inch make that much difference? A comfy PF margin of 170+ would call for 40 fps more AVG Vel.

I had initially thought (and it may truly be) effects of different powder lot's but there have been quite a few reports of that charge weight +/- 0.1 grain giving PF's of 170+ and they can't all be loading from the same lot. Most reported bullets were MG but I'm using Zero brand, so maybe there is a bullet brand effect? I've heard of that before.

Oh well, off to do more experiments!

[What were you first classified as?]

I had a couple initial bad classifiers so I started as D in Limited. About the time I was was going to make C via classifiers, I got a match bump to C. That was cool.

[9mm Major Load Data]

Let me start off by stating I'm new to Open guns and 9mm Major but otheriwse an experenced shooter and reloader.

So, here are my results...

This data was from a STI Trubor w/ 5" barrel blank w/ custom milled comp (reportedly done by Brazos).

Brass: Once fired mixed headstamp

Bullet: Zero 125gr JHP

Primer: Fed SP

Loader: Hornady LNL, powder measure calibrated with balance beam scale

COL: 1.170 - 1.175

Charge Min V Max V Avg V Spread Std Dev PF

Ramshot Silhouette

7.0 1196 1239 1217 43 11 152

7.2 1225 1260 1240 35 13 155

7.4 1247 1291 1266 44 13 158

7.6 1271 1294 1284 23 8 160

7.8 1284 1320 1298 36 13 162

8.0 1306 1347 1326 41 13 166

Autocomp

6.0 1108 1159 1134 51 16 142

6.2 1140 1196 1176 56 17 147

6.4 1144 1201 1177 57 16 147

6.6 1181 1256 1223 75 22 153

6.8 1215 1274 1245 59 19 156

7.0 1246 1284 1273 38 13 159

Notes: As you can see I only had one load that made Major PF and then just! I picked a COL of 1.170 to keep pressure down and it seemed to be a common / popular choice but I found that it was just a bit too long to fit in my STI mags with 9mm spacers.

From here I'll try the Ramshot Silhouette at shorter COL's (I've seen several references for this powder / bullet combo at shorter COL's) before I go to a higher charge weight, as I find 8gr is nearly a compressed load.

Overall, compared to results posted here I seemed to be getting ~2.5% - 3.0% lower velocites with the Silhouette and ~6% lower with Autocomp. At first I thought my chrono was mis-calibrated but due to different deltas from the reported data I don't think so. But I could be wrong.

Also, the previous pistol owner told me 8.0 gr of Silhouette gave him 170PF. I think he said COL was 1.170.

Any other thoughts?

[Which one? M&P Pro in 40 or 9 for IDPA SSP]

9mm vs 40 S&W? Depends on what you want to shoot in the long run.

9mm = GREAT for IDPA SSP & ESP, USPSA Production, and OK for USPSA Limited and Limited 10 Minor (Minor is a bit of a disadvantage)

40 S&W = OK for IDPA SSP & ESP, USPSA Production, GREAT for USPSA Limited and Limited 10 Major (fully competiative)

Factory ammo: 9mm is cheaper then factory 40 S&W by 5 to 10 cents / rnd or so...

Reloaded ammo: 9mm is cheaper then factory 40 S&W by 2 to 4 cents / rnd ro so... (most .40 bullets are about 2 cents more expensive)

No matter which cal you pick, if you shoot a lot, you'll want to reload to tune the ammo.

BTW there have been some reports of extractor issues ithe M&P in 9mm (mine had them and I'vre read a few other reports) but I've not heard that about the .40 S&W M&P's.

Bottom line, I suggest 9mm unless you really think you're going to end up shooting USPSA Limited ? Limited-10 a LOT!

[What Is Your Highest Rank In IDPA?]

CDP SS - Match bump at GA State 09

SSP SS - Classifier

ESP SS - Classifier

Have not tried the classifier in SSR yet but I'm pretty close to ES in SSP (off by ~4 sec) I think I can make it.

[What is wrong with the M&P Pro 9 for USPSA production divison?]

I have the 9 Pro. I liked the FO front sight an the trigger was quite a bit better then a stock M&P, plus there was not a 9L in stock.

I use it to shoot IDPA and may some day use it for USPSA production (but I'm having too much fun in Limited and just got an Open gun so it might be a while).

I did replace the safety plunger with the one from SpeedShooters, mainly just because I could, it is better but you can tweak the stock part for the same feel. http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf

Overall, once the buzzer goes off the difference between the standard Pro trigger and a further enhanced trigger is pretty small, IMHO.

The way I look at it, on a scale of 1 - 10 with 1 being the worst, gritty trigger you can ever find and a 10 being a premium 1911 SA trigger, let's assume the stock M&P trigger is about a "3" and the "Apex" is a 9, I'd put the standard Pro trigger at 7 or 8. Not the best for Bullseye but plenty good enough for action sports like IDPA and USPSA.

[Spacers for 9mm in STI mags?]

Ok, I just built / rebuilt 3 ea 140mm and 1 ea 170mm mag's using Grams 9mm followers & springs, Dawson +1 extensions, and 9mm spacers all in plain stock STI tubes. Based in the description of the follower / spring kits on the ShootersConnection web page I got 13 coil springs for all the mags, including the 140mm tubes. The instructions that came with the follower / spring kits indicate they were only for 145mm and longer mags. With all 13 coils I could just load 22 rnds in the 140mm tubes so I cut off 1 coil and now the 22rnd has some room but I can't get in a 23rd round. The 170mm tube will hold 28 rnds ok but not 29.

Does this sound like a reasonable out come?

Thanks,

Rob

[9mm/glock 34 load data - overload]

The other side of this coin is that because heavy bullets move slower, so does your gun's recoil system and the amount of time you experience the recoil event. That can have a big (if not bigger) impact on how you feel the recoil and your timing for second shots.

That's a good theory, but is proving less than completely reliable in actual tests. I know some folks doing slide speed testing, on a scientific level, and the results aren't always what you'd expect. I think there's a lot more going on that is hard to sort out because much of it is internal ballistics we can't easily measure. Burn rate, peak pressure, dwell time at peak, residual pressure, etc, etc, all come to mind as other factors that could have an impact. I guess that's a long way of saying "it all depends"

Well, ok. True, I've not done high-speed filming to do a comparison. In a gross sense, less muzzle energy has to mean less energy going back in to the gun/slide; else Sir Newton has some explaining to do! I can imagine that different timing of that energy (due to a different shape of the pressure curve from using different powder) causing the muzzle energy to slide velocity relationship to be non-linear especially as springs tend to be at least slightly non-linear.

Do you have a link the referenced research? I'd be interested to read what they're doing.

[9mm/glock 34 load data - overload]

The different bullet weights impact the energy in the recoil and how you "feel" the recoil. As you know, PF is a momentum equation (mass X velocity) so all bullets shot at the same PF will have the same momentum, but not the same muzzle energy (1/2 * mass X velocity ^ 2 -- don't forget to divide by 7000 and 32.17 to convert to ft - lbf ). Because heavier bullets can make the same PF at a lower velocity, you get the same PF at a much lower muzzle energy with a heavier bullet.

Remember powder has mass and velocity and thus momentum and muzzle energy as well. Heavier bullets often need less powder to get to the same PF, that helps reduce some of the momentum and muzzle energy as well. Going from 115gr to 147gr bullet at the same PF will be nearly a 22% reduction in muzzle energy, not counting for impacts due to reduced powder. That's the energy and momentum considerations.

The other side of this coin is that because heavy bullets move slower, so does your gun's recoil system and the amount of time you experience the recoil event. That can have a big (if not bigger) impact on how you feel the recoil and your timing for second shots. Also, your grip is probably the biggest variable in this whole system.

I know folks who don't like 147gr bullets moving slow, it disrupts their timing and they prefer the "snap" of 115 gr bullets. Other folks are the other way around.

As others had said, try them out and see what you like best. As to brand, you need to figure out your cost vs consistency criteria.

JHP have no exposed lead at the base, FMJ do. It can make a difference in smoke and barrel leading.

[3rd IDPA Match and the Unexpected Happened]

This is why many folks modify their mags and followers and slidestops so that the gun NEVER locks back.

Not such a good idea for IDPA. It's most likely your thumb hitting the lever.

+1000, very bad idea for IDPA where you oftern have to shoot to slide lock.

[W231]

Cabela's list W231 in stock.

[W231]

Has anybody heard if W231 is still available? I have been having a problem finding it locally. This is the powder I use in my Super to shoot steel with.

Most places show it being "Out of Stock" right now.

It's hard to find for most people.

Some place's have some but harder to find than normal.

Winchester WST is more available for some reason. But its a little

faster and you would have to rework your load a little.

Also, Hodgdon HP-38 is same as 231 if you can find it, but still hard to find.

Graf & Sons and BassPro Shops have HP38 in stiock, so says their web pages anyway.

[CMC mag problems]

When I was shooting IDPA CDP I started out using a pile of the CMC Power+ Mags and a few Power Mags. After about a year I started having similar problems sporadically then more frequently. A good cleaning and polish of the follower helped some but did not solve it. All the followers seemed to be mounted properly but once I had the sense that a follower came off the spring but during clearing the jam it went back into place. I could not verify that. I was about to start replacing followers and springs in them when I picked up a stainless steel Wolff (a.k.a., ACT or Novak) mag off a prize table and I fell in love with the follower design!

As a side note, I started to build up a pile of the Wolff but then the feed lips started to crack. Kudos to Wolff for refunding me on all the mags I purchased from them. I had read the feed lip problem was mostly in the stainless versions so I got some blued Novak’s. But by then I switched to shooting IDPS SSP with a Glock because there were more shooters locally in that division, so...

If / when I shoot IDPA CDP or USPSA SS again I may look at putting the ACT style follower in the CMC bodies with new Wolff springs.

[TechWear USA 2010 USPSA Area 8 Championship]

I'm in! I need to redeem myself after the VAMD Sectional - actually got 0 points on Stage 1!

[VA-MD Section Match 5/21-5/23 2010]

It was a great match! Well run and excellent stages. Cheers to all of the staff.

The only thing I'd like to have changed was my performance on Stage 1!

Oh well, leaves my a lot of room to inprove!

Rob

[Spacers for 9mm in STI mags?]

Have you tried it without spacers? I have three 9mm S_I guns and none need spacers in the mags with any length ammo. I have a larger number of both STI and SV tubes with a random set of followers and springs and it doesn't seem to make a differnce. I say try it first, if you don't them its one less thing to deal with.

Short answer no, not yet. But I'm shopping for more mags so I'm seeking enlightnement without having to buy stuff twice.

Rob

[Spacers for 9mm in STI mags?]

I'm new to Open and the STI 2011 platform. I just bought a used gun in 9mm major and woder if mags need to have the "spacer" I see listed all over the place.

I will be reloading and expect to be loading long ~1.17+" OAL.

Thoughts?

Rob

[Is everyone going to 9 major?]

I just bought my first open gun in 9mm, its used and I’ve not had it long enough to even get out to the range to shoot it. While shopping for this purchase I considered both 9mm major and 38 super/comp. Factors for me were:

New Brass: 9mm and 38 super/com nearly the same, difference was so small as to be insignificant, both ~ $125/1000 from Starline.

Once Fired Brass: 9mm common ($30+ / 1000), 38 super/comp all but non-existent.

38 super/com cost with reuse: assume you recover 66% every time you shoot, after 6 cycles you’re down to ~125 cases and have effectively gotten ~2700 reloads out of 1000 new cases, effectively your brass cost is ~$45/1000 loads. If your recovery rate is lower, cost is higher. At 33% recovery, its about $85/1000 loads.

Assuming use of once fired 9mm with a 0% recovery rate, 9mm will save $15 - $50/1000 loads and compared to not picking up any 38 super/comp brass, $90/1000 loads (assuming same bullet, primer, and powder cost). I estimate that once up and running with Open, I’ll be shooting ~3000+ rounds /year so 9mm would save me $45 - $270 / year in brass, let’s say ~$150/year. That is not insignificant but it is not a huge number compared to bullets, primers, and powder (~$450 - $550/year) plus cost of ravel, match fees, etc. But with 9mm, you’re not spending time as a range chicken, picking brass unless you like to do that.

For gun shopping, I priced a new Dawson prepared 9mm Trubor and used that as my baseline target of $2900. With the calculations above I assumed in 3 years, 9mm would save me ~$500 +/-. I decided if I found a used 38 super/comp that compared well to a new Dawson prepared Trubor for less than $2400, allowing more for included mag’s, it would be good deal. After three years I’d be reevaluating anyway. I found a number of 38 SC guns in that price range but most had very high round counts so I kept looking.

I was ready to pull the trigger on a new gun, but then I got lucky and found a basic (oxymoron?) Trubor-based 9mm major gun for $1800 with a reasonable round count! Low purchase price and cheaper reloads! But, the right used 38 SC would have worked as well, at least for me.

Economically, if you’re naturally a range chicken, 38 SC has some benefits like a larger powder selection, and possibly few feeding problems (depending on the gun). For me the fire and forget feature of 9mm is a good thing.

Rob

[Classification Calculation]

Ken I believe when you shoot the sixth one they'll calculate the best four of six

Nope, I have six in limited, 1 from 1/07, 4 from 2/07 and 1 from 11/09 and they range from 17% to 83% and they ALL counted. So who knows. Kinda like when you win your class at a major above your average you get bumped up, at least in theory.

I finished 2nd in my classification with a match score in the next classification bracket up - got bumped and have the letter that states such, so it happens.

As I understand it if you shoot 6 classifiers in the same they are ordered highest to lowest such that the 4 highest are the 4 most "recent".

Rob

[2010 USPSA Area 8 Championship-Aug 26-29, 2010]

Shooting the Area 8 on my birthday sounds like a great way to turn 40. One question....Is the t-shirt a Techwear t-shirt? I need a new one to replace the other 2. Still have to look and see if I can get the time off from work but it sounds like I'm going to be there.

Very cool. I'll also be shooting a mach on my B-Day weekend! It'll be the VA-MD Secional in May. Unfortunately mine will be the 50th.

Happy B-Day's to us!

[9mm Major ammo sources]

Rob - Congrats on the purchase. I looked at that gun real hard and seems like a good one to me, I was tempted to jump on it myself. 9 major is just a 9 mm with a butt load of powder in it. Where the trick comes in is tuning the load to your gun, now if your buying ammo then you will have to tune the gun to the load. The dark side is full of gotya's like that. To get the most out of your gun the load and gun have to complement each other. The only way an ammo supplier can make sure you get a mojor load is to pump it way up, and to use a little faster powder than may work well in your gun. Differences in open guns shooting the same bullet etc can vary in the powder charge up to one grain. Non compensated guns also vary but not nearly as much.

I would suggest that you get a reloader and start working up a load that works in your gun for your style of shooting. The best cheap set up I can think of is the Square Deal B from Dillon.

I pickup range brass in 9 mm (try to spot the once fired) I load them once and leave them. I paint them red with Dykem so I don't pick them up.

True enough. The only reason I was looking to "buy" ammo was all my reloading gear (I have a full house Hornady LNL set up w/ case feeder, etc.) is in long term storage and I won't be reloading again until this fall. I fully intend to tune the load to the gun but just wanted something on hand to play around with. I have some lose-packed Speer (almost) +P I'll try out. If it functions the gun (good comp effect or not) I may give Open-Minor a try for a few months until I can get a load worked up.

Glad we didn’t get in a bidding war! If the price went up I probably would have gone for the really nice SVI Infinity that had a reserve for $2250, which is what I think it sold at.

[9mm Major ammo sources]

Is 9mm major brass the same as standard 9mm? The reason I ask is there is a cartridge company I use called Arizona Cartridge company. The guy who runs it is very easy to work with. He will load your components or load his to your specs. I buy my 9mm 124gr minor loads and my .45 185 gr open gun ammo from him until I get my reloading going. It is always very accurate and runs well with no problems. It might be worth giving him a call. Let me know if you need his contact info.

Based on all I've read, it is all the same. I have seen some references that lead me to believe there is some 9mm brass with a custom head stamp of 355 Super but it is otherwise normal 9mm brass. BTW, per Starline’s web page 9mm +P head stamp brass is the same brass just different head stamp so you can see what is a +P load.

[2010 South Carolina Section Championship]

Thanks! Z-land was... confusing!