Alan Adamson
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Posts posted by Alan Adamson
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if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during.
It is not, and therein lies the problem. Rulebook defines it quite clearly, just like it defines facing uprange, dropped gun, etc. The rulebook is your friend, do not fear the rulebook.
I'm surprised that with that much discussion, someone did not break out the rulebook.
Oh, you can be assured the rule book was out... but here's the rub... The rules says (paraphasing as I'm too lazy to go find it). that at no time during "load, unload or reload" can the finger be in (on) the trigger (guard)... The phrase that you quote is around *reloading*, but to do a reload, you have to "do all three".
Alan
ps. ok, I went and found it...
8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s
fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun
must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction
authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).
Alan
So the question is really, is pulling the trigger on a known empty chamber, if sandwiched on one side by an unload - where the finger was clear, and a load - where the finger was clear - part of reloading.
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if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during.
It is not, and therein lies the problem. Rulebook defines it quite clearly, just like it defines facing uprange, dropped gun, etc. The rulebook is your friend, do not fear the rulebook.
I'm surprised that with that much discussion, someone did not break out the rulebook.
Oh, you can be assured the rule book was out... but here's the rub... The rules says (paraphasing as I'm too lazy to go find it). that at no time during "load, unload or reload" can the finger be in (on) the trigger (guard)... The phrase that you quote is around *reloading*, but to do a reload, you have to "do all three".
Alan
ps. ok, I went and found it...
8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s
fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun
must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction
authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).
Alan
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- Shooter wants to check/cycle the gun, so he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion
Did shooter tell the RO what he was doing?
Yes, but not sure that really matters, I find no rules that suggest that needs to take place... obviously a nice thing to do, but not sure it really matters to the question at hand?
Alan
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Here is the definition of Reloading from the rulebook. Did this happen?
Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional
ammunition into a firearm.
From your description, he dropped the mag, cycled the gun with no mag in it, did not replenish or insert additional ammunition, then when satisfied, took a mag and inserted it. Was his finger where it should not have been when the mag was being inserted? I don't see that from your comments.
I don't see cycling the gun if there may be a problem to fall into the reloading cycle. By the comment made above, anytime a shooter drops a mag and cycles/checks the gun - which may include pulling the trigger to see if a trigger spring is broken or there is some other issue, then they should be DQ'd. I do not agree with that. Dropping a mag is dropping a mag. It does not signal the start of the reloading cycle. It can, but does not always.
Had a stage where I thought my trigger spring broke. Dropped the mag, cycled the gun and pulled the trigger repeatedly? Should I have been DQ'd?
Additionally, is "reload and holster" a range command or a courtesy?
When he inserted the mag, his finger was clear of the trigger guard.
"reload and holster" is a courtesy, there is *NO* range command specifically for *between strings* although that is *strongly* recommended by most of the RO class instructors...
Alan
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At the very least, he/she should have been given the extra shot penalties for the classifier as well as the extra time the shooter took making the extra shots on the 1st string. (I am pretty sure it was a Virgina Count classifier)
Was the shooter aiming at the targets when shooting the extra shots? Was the shooter aiming down and hitting within 10 feet of himself (10.4.2) or sending them over the berm (10.4.1)? 10.4.3 covers the person firing during loading, or after If Finished, unload and show clear. 10.5.8 covers shooting while clearing a malfunction and clearly not aiming at targets, and 10.5.9 covers shots during reloading...
Without being there, it seems like several f the rules above could have/should have sent the person home...
First of all, there was no extra shot... sorry If I suggested other. The only issue was after he completed the first string, between the 1st and send, while getting ready for the second, he dropped the mag, ejected the round in the chamber and dropped the hammer, then did it again, then put a magazine back in and reloaded and holstered and then walked to the next string start positions.
Alan
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Ok, I've puzzled on this for a few days, still not sure I have the appropriate answer.
Scenario:
- Shooter is shooting a multi-string classifier, 3 shooting line/box positions
- first string is 4 targets, 2 on each, reload 2 on each
- first 8 shots are fine, reload is fine, on the second set of 8 shots, partway through, shooter notices gun is acting up
- shooter manages to finish string
- Shooter wants to check/cycle the gun, so he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion
- The above step is repeated
- then the shooter loads a mag, racks the slide and moves to string 2 location
- at some point, during the above the RO gives a "reload if necessary and holster" command in preparation for moving to the next shooting location
The issue is the RO felt that the above step was *reloading with finger in the trigger* and wanted to DQ the shooter. It was a level 1 match and there was enough question about the events that it was agreed to allow the shooter to continue.
I'm sure this is documented, but when is unloading, loading, reloading *complete*. And here's why I say this.... All the above happened, during the COF, if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during.
BUT
How many of you have had a shooter at the end of shooting, before the IYAFUSC command, drop a mag, rack the slide and pull the trigger? Was his finger in the trigger guard on an unload during the COF?
This can't be as difficult as I'm making it out, and there must be an easy answer... It has to have happened a million times, but it sure caused a bunch of us to puzzle at a match this weekend...
So steer away oh great collective mass of DRL's
Alan
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I have a ? I call myself looking at this thread so if I over looked the answer I am sorry in advance . Will this program work for scoring a steel match like steel challenge .i really like what I have seen so far just playing with it
Thanks
Jason
No, not yet, but they have lots of scoring formats in the hopper to work on, but instead of trying to do a little for everything, right now they are focused on uspsa match scoring with SASS, MG, steel challenge, etc in the *want list*
Alan
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After cleaning the *yellow* grit out of my guns everytime I shoot Silhouette, I stopped... besides I *much* more like the feel and dot track of RamShot True Blue in my 5" open guns (and found it just may become a favorite in a shorty I'm shooting).
7.85gr of true blue behind an MG 124 jph at 1.165 is better than AC, better than HS6, better than SP2 (yes I've got 25lbs of SP2 and like this load much better), better than Sil, etc... and yes I tried 115's with Sil as well (need to do that with HS6 too as it's becoming a rather well referenced load out of Shays guns).
Alan
Alan,
What weight recoil spring are you using with this load? I've run 8, 9, and 10 springs and the heavier spring seems to keep the recoil under control best. The 8lb was pretty wild.
Thanks.
As an update, while I wasn't fond of HS6 with 124's, I do kinda like it with 115's...
...Either way, I run an 8lb recoil in one gun and a 9 in the other. Can't tell much different, but the 8 in that gun corrected a 1-2 oclock dot track back to a 12 oclock track...
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Noticed that you've got a zerk there? From dillon or something you did yourself? Just the one, or are there others?
Nice!
not to hijack, but Dillon had a kit to retro an old 650 with the new style bolts with Zirts.... It's in the threads, look for posts from Gary (dillon) for the PN.
Alan
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I have been shooting 38 sc in my open gun using auto comp and works great. This year I have decided to shoot production with a CZ sp-0.
I have 10 lbs of auto comp and wanted to see who is using it for minor loads. Thanks
Try 4.8gr behind a MG 124 JHP at 1.090... The SP01 will run that just fine, it will make approx 130PF and it shoots cleaner and softer than titegroup
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It was a far bigger deal doing this than I had imagined (Pronounced Pain-In-The-ASS...).
On the scale it's back to 2#, but I've got to admit, at least in my mind(?)
it seems not quite as nice as it was before.. This may be because of the fact
I used a white lithium grease this time and it feels a bit static-y.. if that makes any sense..
I have since, pulled it down again & replaced the insert w/ an Enos Short, Top Curve shoe which turned out to
be... Wait for it... Too damned short for me.. Lol..! 3rd try'll be a charm; Medium Top Curve...
If I had it to do over again... I would not go through this again, I would stick w/ the factory trigger for sure..
I have also tried the "Tri-Glide" (Not in this gun) and truth be known.. Didn't feel like enough difference to bother w/ IMHO...
I recently got the magwell from a board member here and it was rough... But man did IT clean up nicely..!
I hate the looks of the white insert, so.. If anyone has a Black one they'd like to trade for a white one, I'm the guy..!
But, but, but.... On the Benos curved inserts... They only have one... . If I'm wrong, I'd love to know, I shoot the only what that I know of and would like a slightly longer version (top curved in this case)...
I just checked sviguns to verify...
Alan
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All, just remember, a kindle fire, ipad, iphone, or cheap *color* display on either an android or an ios device is going to *SUCK* in the royal sense, when used outdoors in bright sunlight.... Especially depending on the color pallet used. This whole idea over a Nook Simple seems much more plausible given both indoor and outdoor shooting. They use an e-ink display and the battery life is approx 3-4X what the color units are, not to mention they are *way* cheaper.
I'm off today to find a nook and root it.... from all I can tell with a the 1.1 firmware which has been officially release, and a little time, they root pretty easy....
Now what I *don't* know is how sluggish the e-ink display feels.... but we'll soon have an assessment of that....
from an ipad and android owner/user who lives with both every day, color in daylight/sunlight and readable is an oxymoron...
Alan
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thinking of trying one of these.... 3.5 or 7 moa if you usually shoot a 6moa cmore?
Alan
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NOTE: just heard from Ken, his touch's are actually gen2's not gen1's... so iphone gen1 and ipod touch gen1's won't work as the min ios requirement is 4.2...
Ok, I'm kinda confused on one topic.... you say that you have practicscore running on Gen1 ipod touch's....but I just tried to download it to a gen 1 iphone and it says that it requires IOS version 4.2 or higher.... 4.2 or higher won't run on the Ipod touch's, or the iphone, so how do you have this loaded on gen 1 ipod touch's?
Yes I know I'm mixing apples and oranges... but I figured that if you had it running on gen 1 ipod touch's that it would run on the gen 1 iphone... but alas it won't... latest version of ios software for the gen 1 devices is 3.1.3.
And as mentioned above, when trying to get to a gen 1 iphone it says it requires a mininum version of 4.2....
...gen2 ipod touches are no great deal, even on ebay.
Curious minds want to know...
Alan
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^^^ Ramming in the magazine. Depending on the size of the mag catch slot in the mag, the relief cut in the ejector and the fit of the mag catch it is easy to have the mag/round contact the ejector when pushed in hard.
Yep, this is right... Funny thing is, I use these magazines with 3 different guns and no issues, I've also ran them in this gun for almost 2K rounds... it just when they were down loaded to 8-10 rounds each and used, something went *tink* and off came the ejector tip... broke it right at the base of the little arm that sticks out... When we fit another one, we'll remedy that, plus as mentioned, I'm going to try one of the Posi-lock releases from DP in hopes of preventing it...
Alan
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I got bit last night and while not necessarily a tip.... Be *very* careful of your mags and over inserting them... I shot a funky stage and it was the last of the night, had 20 bullets left needed at least 6 in each mag for a 3 box 6 shot bill drill on 3 targets.... somewhere along the line, I broke the tip of the ejector completely off and it was rattling in the bottom of a mag.
But that caused me to make this post.
A critical component to keep clean and functional (beside the ejector obviously) is the extractor.... I'm not going to try to describe how it needs to be fit, but once it is you need to have a 22lr barrel cleaning brush around and a short aluminum cleaning rod. Pull the extractor at about every 1000 rounds and push that brush through to clean all the crud that gets in the tunnel out. Then clean up the extractor, lube and clean the springs (if using an aftec) and then put a thin coat of oil back in the extractor tunnel and live for another 1000 rounds.
Derek at MCG just reminded me of this issue when I sent in a year old gun for a check up...
Other key tip... get yourself one of the extractor removal tools that Dawson makes, they make removing one a *breeze*.... I've had really good luck with getting DP stuff from Sean at Power factor shooting where he runs sales from time to time and carries most of the good stuff from DP.
9Major is well known for using powders that aren't the cleanest in the world, so it's important that you remember this area and keep it clean... once those springs on the aftec get crud on them, they will change the way the extractor tension holds to the brass rim, a key thing with 9Major and getting rounds clear of the scope/mount.
Anyway, figured I'd sent this note along to save someone some frustration...
Alan
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Figured it was time for an update and some new information.
After changing the primer punch, the primer bushing, the shell plate and cleaning up and lubing the press... I got to the point of going to 300-500 rounds before a primer crush, same way as before, but at least I'm back to where I started (remember I was at 10-12 before a crush).
So, while at the Shot show this past week, I found Dillon and talked their ear off... Guess what, they have made a change to the primer bar, and from all accounts is just may resolve my problem once and for all (at least my figure are crossed).
Quick summary first....
a) my 1050 *never* missed a primer on pick up, so it's not an issue with the alignment of the primer tube/magazine to the primer bar feed hole as some have.
my issue is one where the primer as it's being seated in the brass, would start to go in, and then would roll over to about 30 degrees and one edge of the primer would pouch out and get stuck and then you'd crush the primer, almost turning it inside out (see pictures above). Usually this would not stay in the case, and so you'd have to clean the entire press up before you could continue as the messed up primer would stay in the primer bar.What Dillon has changed is the amount of bevel on the top of the primer bar, this will support the primer for alignment for a slightly longer duration and not allow it to roll over so soon. Between that and a tweak on my swaging station, I hope this remedies this completely this time. They sent me a new primer bar yesterday and I may have it tomorrow, if so, I've got a match this weekend that I'll use it to load with.
I know I probably have the patience of Jobe, but I really like the 1050, just wish mine would run and run and run and run.... but alas it doesn't....
So here's hoping... once I get the new one, I'll try to take a picture of the two hopefully it will be obvious of the differences so others with this same issue can try this change.
Alan
Got the new part today, there is a pretty significant difference in the amount of taper between the flat level of the primer slider and hole... Going to put the new part in tomorrow and crank out a few rounds... I've got my test case all ready... WIN brass, all hand sorted and CCI primers.... That, at one time, I would crush 1 out of 10 on before Gary helped me with the primer punch swap, since then I've been doing hand sorted Mixed (minus S&B and some other oddities) and it's been running at about 300-500 before I crush one, I'm hoping this puts me over the top with some margin, if that's possible... if not, I know exactly what I'm going to do to fix it (and yes, it still means I'll keep it
... ).Alan
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I have not read the entire string so I apologize if this has been covered.
You are likely having a stability issue with your mounting of the 1050. I searched for a year to solve similar problems on me RL1050 before I shored up my table. Once I got the table completely solid these problems went away.
Thinks like carpet under the bench legs or lack of wall attachments can cause these issues.
Oh trust me, it's *NOT* that, my bench is anything but loose, it's affixed to the wall and the floor and basically a rock...
Alan
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Deleted by author
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Mark, did you ever release the sketch to the 3d warehouse, just looked and couldn't find it from you? Would like to see it in sketchup if possible?
Thanks,
Alan
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Figured it was time for an update and some new information.
After changing the primer punch, the primer bushing, the shell plate and cleaning up and lubing the press... I got to the point of going to 300-500 rounds before a primer crush, same way as before, but at least I'm back to where I started (remember I was at 10-12 before a crush).
So, while at the Shot show this past week, I found Dillon and talked their ear off... Guess what, they have made a change to the primer bar, and from all accounts is just may resolve my problem once and for all (at least my figure are crossed).
Quick summary first....
a) my 1050 *never* missed a primer on pick up, so it's not an issue with the alignment of the primer tube/magazine to the primer bar feed hole as some have.
my issue is one where the primer as it's being seated in the brass, would start to go in, and then would roll over to about 30 degrees and one edge of the primer would pouch out and get stuck and then you'd crush the primer, almost turning it inside out (see pictures above). Usually this would not stay in the case, and so you'd have to clean the entire press up before you could continue as the messed up primer would stay in the primer bar.What Dillon has changed is the amount of bevel on the top of the primer bar, this will support the primer for alignment for a slightly longer duration and not allow it to roll over so soon. Between that and a tweak on my swaging station, I hope this remedies this completely this time. They sent me a new primer bar yesterday and I may have it tomorrow, if so, I've got a match this weekend that I'll use it to load with.
I know I probably have the patience of Jobe, but I really like the 1050, just wish mine would run and run and run and run.... but alas it doesn't....
So here's hoping... once I get the new one, I'll try to take a picture of the two hopefully it will be obvious of the differences so others with this same issue can try this change.
Alan
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I talked to STI at Shot, they had their new Aluminum grip there, it's available now, replacements for the cracked old version and they will warranty you to the new one. The one I saw as black, and they were pretty confident that it wouldn't crack.
Figured I'd follow up on this tread with that info.
Alan
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I wound up pulling bearing kit off and sending it to another member to try...I just didn't like it I guess. In any event, since it was time to tear down my press for its annual deep cleaning and lube - i just started clipping down the detent spring until the shellplate ran like I wanted. Runs very smooth now.
The problem I have with cutting the spring is that the detent may not *index* correctly. Most likely this will show itself after some use and crud getting into the spring/ball, etc.
I've not seen a 650 that didn't benefit from just the bearing upgrade... but it does take a little touch to get the bolt to the right tightness/looseness to benefit from it. All my 650's have it and I load 9Major on one and couldn't do that with the powder that I use without the mod.
Alan
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I've been toying with creating a match as below. Just curious what others would change/tweak on it?
2 primary goals
- no long waits to shoot - I don't know how to define that just yet.
- 40+ shooters, done in one day, preferably by 2-3p
Would you think this if feasible? Fun? Interesting, etc?
Note, yes I know it's similar to the Prairie Dog shoots that some organization do, it was based upon that as a starting point.
Thanks for looking/commenting... I'm most likely going to run a test squad in the next few days/weeks to see what the overall squad timing becomes to help determine how a typical match might flow/last.
Alan
Practical/Tactical Rifle Match
Overview:
A Par-time based, points only Practical/Tactical Rifle Match with distances
out to 600yrds. Organized in Squads of 5 shooters, utilizing either a Prone, standing
or a Seated shooting position designated by stage description. Utilizing a common firing line.
Distance targets will be some form of *flashing* steel. At each
distance a unique *colored* flag will be placed to be visible from the
firing line. These flags will be utilized in the stage descriptions to
designate engagement of specific targets - order of targets may be
specified. There will be at least 4 and hopefully 8 different distances
designated, and each will be highlighted with a different colored flag (ooh, means I have to come up
with 8 colors... hmmm).
There will be 4 courses of fire (stages) that each squad will have to shoot.
Each stage will be composed of at least 3 different colors of flags
(distances) that can be engaged. One of the colors for each stage will be
designated the *primary* color. The Primary color distance will score 5pts
for a hit, and -5pts for a mike. The other 2 colors will score 3 points
each and will be scored as hits only with no penalty for misses. Each stage
will be Par-timed for 15 seconds (TBD based upon testing). Overage shot
will not count for hits, but will also not be penalized. Only one hit per
target will score. The combined total of the hit (or miss) on each color/distance will be
counted as the shooters score for that stage (primary + bonuses).
Some stages may specify a start position that is not at the firearm and some
may allow loaded vs. unloaded starts. Each, however, will specify a start position.
Final scoring will be the summary total of all stages, sorted with the highest
point score by division.
Shooters requirements:
Some form of bolt or repeating rifle utilizing center fire cartridges.
Grouped by less than 30 caliber or greater than 30 caliber. Divisions will
be created for optics vs. irons and maybe bolt vs. auto.
Spotters requirements:
We will need at least 3 spotting scopes/binoculars and shooters who are not
shooting in the current squad will be utilized as spotters calling hits on
the associated targets for the current squad.
NOTE: given this approach, we *may* be able to shoot 2 squads at the same
time (on different colored targets/distances obviously), if this happens we would need
at least 6 spotting scopes/binoculars and spotters.
...
my issue is one where the primer as it's being seated in the brass, would start to go in, and then would roll over to about 30 degrees and one edge of the primer would pouch out and get stuck and then you'd crush the primer, almost turning it inside out (see pictures above). Usually this would not stay in the case, and so you'd have to clean the entire press up before you could continue as the messed up primer would stay in the primer bar.
Load, unload, Reload - finger on trigger Q
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
Chris.... Thanks, finally a *clear* answer to this topic.... Everyone else kept stepping around it and I couldn't seem to steer the topic correctly, but you just hit the nail on the head...
Thanks!
Alan