rmills
-
Posts
259 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Forums
Profiles
Events
Store
Posts posted by rmills
-
-
Roy -
It isn't that we misunderstand the rules. Its that we think they're bogus. Illogical. Silly. I understand and agree with the basic spriit and premise of IDPA, but the rules, the interpretation of the rules and the application of those rules is often contradictory to the stated intent of the sport itself.
And, please, don't you misunderstand a healthy debate of therules as bashing. You are insulting the intelligence of many experienced and wise people here and there is no grounds for it. We don't agree with this ruling that Ken has handed down and we're stating reasons for it. Don't make this out to be any more than it is.
Dave
Big Dave:
You state that IDPA rules are bogus. If this is the case, why shoot IDPA at all? I don't shoot USPSA anymore but if I did, I would follow the rules to a T as that's their rules. If one comes from USPSA and attempts IDPA and then bashes it becuase they attempted to do something they would do in USPSA that isn't legal in IDPA, who is at fault, the sport or the individual?
-
I beg to differ that both organizations handle rules and changes to them in the same manner....Never have I seen a MD, or CRO or anyone else interpret the rules at a USPSA match...they are always quoting the rule book and it is there for all to see...the other group will gladly interpret on the fly when it suits their purpose and time constraints.. been there, seen that ...more than a few times with both organizations...
Thats' not what I saw at the Area 5 in 1997 and the Area 8 in 1998. My last "Big Matches" due to no continuity in the rules or their applications. Rules definitions changed day to day depending on whether one was on the Super Squad or not.
-
No Tightloop, the reason airgunning is not allowed is because it's a sight picture, period. Because it doesn't meet your understanding of a sight picture means nothing. Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn set the rules for this sport, period. Your misunderstanding of the purpose and procedures of IDPA is no reason to become emotional. I would suggest going to the IDPA website and downloading the "white Paper" on IDPA's purpose and foundation. Once read, if you find that you don't understand or agree with it, fine, no one is forcing anyone to shoot IDPA.
Mark....................This topic has run it's course and has very much turned into an IDPA bashing event. Is it time to close it?
-
Why was the "No-Airgunning" rule invoked? It's very simple. In IDPA competition, the shooter is expected to be completely ready to perform on demand. When one comes to the line and the LAMR command is given, no sight pictures may be taken, period. If one needs to take a sight picture to check their sights or for whatever reason, they are not ready to shoot (just as if a competitor takes a long time to load and make ready due to practice draws, studying the stage too long before acknowledging Ready, etc., in which case they will be asked to unload, go to the back of the line, and be ready to shoot next time up). Competitors started trying to get around this rule by "air gunning" when pasting targets or while waiting to shoot to try to gain an advantage. When one air guns they are still going thru the motions of developing a sight picture, just without a gun. That is why it was ruled illegal (or if you will, the no sight picture rule was clarified).
It's a very simple concept. The rule is: Don't take a sight picture, period (either with a gun or not). The keyword is sight picture.
-
As with USPSA, when rule changes happen, a new rule book is not immediately released, but the information is disseminated via e-mail, section coordinators, etc.
A slight clarification, if I may:
With USPSA, the rules are the rules. Clarifications, interpretive rulings, etc., are disseminated through the USPSA website, and "Front Sight" (the "official newsletter of the org").
*New* rules (or substantive changes to existing rules) are not disseminated in this way because there is no way to ensure that every member is aware of them. We want to always be sure that pulling the curent rulebook out of your pocket at a match will yield "correct" information. So when we add or change rules in some substantive way, they only become effective when a new rulebook is printed.
Bruce
Gary, you are correct in your statement and I apologize. With IDPA the rules are the rules. However, HQ does issue "clarifications" for such things as the airgunning issue (non-issue for most of us). Any of these clarifications are available at anytime from HQ. Thanks for helping me "clarify" the verbage. It would appear that both organizations handle the issue exactly the same.
-
Matures....definetely.
I think the fact that they need rules clarification is the greatest understatement of the year.
The fact that it needs to mature are when well known USPSA shooters shoot IDPA Nationals, and are handed penalties up the ying yang, such as with Taran this year.
Any sport that doesn't want to do something because they dont want to be like "that" sport, once again, greatly needs to mature.
And yes, I would rather it change to my liking, and I'm also pretty sure I would have the interest of furthering the shooting sports driving me....unlike some.....
Obviously, Taran and the other USPSA shooters violated stage procedures or the rules to be given such penalities. How many IDPA matches had he shot before attending the nationals? Was he fully aware of the rules? Did he attempt to "game" around the COF procedures?
We need more specific information on each penalty before the situation is painted with the often used "IDPA Tactical GODS picked on a USPSA shooter" brush.
Taran is very, very, talented shooter and does well in USPSA, but IDPA is a different sport with different rules and skill tests.
-
"By the way, airgunning is still against the rules"
Where is it written that airgunning is against the rules?
Sight pictures, yes.
DA Dave
At the 2003 Nationals (correct me if I'm wrong as to the year) it was announced that "air gunning" was illegal. This decision was made by Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn, etc., the people who determine the rules for IDPA. As with USPSA, when rule changes happen, a new rule book is not immediately released, but the information is disseminated via e-mail, section coordinators, etc. If you need a document defining that air gunning is illegal, please contact HQ and they will gladly sent out a correspondance confirming this issue.
If anyone has any other questions, don't hesitate to e-mail IDPA HQ and they will respond in a timely manner with the answer.
-
Roy,
Rob and I aren't the problem. I can only assume you single us out because he is an USPSA Area Director and I am a Section Coordinator.
You don't like USPSA. We get it.
The point I'm making is a logical one. Rob and yourself have expressed opinions quite often in regards to IDPA. My question is simple, have either of you shot a match or a number of matches so that you truly understand the rules and how shooting IDPA differs from USPSA. I participated in USPSA for 12 years and feel that I have a good working knowledge of the organization and it's rules. How can one make comments as to the infrastructure and operations of another organization of which they have no experience other than the heresay posted in forums?
You should not take it personally, but go get some IDPA experience before you post comments without foundation about the organization.
"Practice is practice. "Air-gunning" is practice and IDPA is about application, not practice. That's how I see it. "
Precision40, you are right on tract with your statement!
-
Until the IDPA BOD gets their heads out of their keesters and realizes that they need to accept input by their members, the sport will NEVER mature no matter who is shooting it.
"Customers" might be a better word than "member", since these "members" are not permitted to vote on who will run the organization. But then, hotels charge you and still use the term "guest", not to mention country clubs calling their customers "members", so the use of the term "member" may not be too much of a streatch.
Again, someone tries to compare IDPA to USPSA. IDPA HQ, just like SASS, Bianchi Cup, Steel Challenge, and GSSF, sets it's own rules, period. People who join any of these organizations or compete at their matches, know going in that the rules are determined and set by the owners or directors of those organizations.
If one looks at the number of members who vote in the USPSA elections, it's a very small percentage. And when those members ask questions of the BOD such as how much money was lost on the land deal and how much money was spent on so called publicity, no answers are given. So much for being responsive to the membership.
Rob, Kyle, have either of you ever shot an IDPA match? If so great. If not, how can you even comment on the issues or the structure of the organization?
It's time to stop the IDPA bashing. If you don't like IDPA for whatever reason, please don't put yourselves out by participating in it. Rather than spend time in this forum looking for problems that don't exist, use that energy to improve the USPSA organization.
-
As Duane T. has reminded me, it's just another sport with another set of non-realistic BS rules and the standard quota of Nazis.
Wow, there's some serious paraphrasing.
I think I actually said something like, "I don't agree with every rule in IDPA, but I still follow them." Well stated Duane!
-
Kyle: I no longer shoot USPSA for the similiar reasons that posters here have stated that they no longer shoot IDPA, period. It's nothing personal, I just like the sport and the simplicity it brings back to competitive shooting. As far as USPSA shooters go, I've seen many come to IDPA matches totally unprepared and unaware of the rules. As a result, they hosed the targets, talked about how fast they were, and then complained about how far down the results list they appeared due to poor hits on the targets. They receive a procedural for not using cover and try to argue that there was no need for cover as they shot the threat so fast that cover was unecessary. These are the shooters we see attempting IDPA and quiting since they cannot compete (or do not want to) in the framework of the rules. If one doesn't wish to compete under IDPA rules, then don't come to IDPA matches and then complain.
Michael: Yes, attendance at our IDPA matches over the last few years has grown and continues to grow. At the local matches in our area, we don't see all of the problems that are discussed here. If there is an issue, it's discussed, and a ruling is made. I've never seen anyone get upset and leave. Yes, there have been poor calls, stages, etc. at many IDPA matches over the years JUST like there has been at USPSA matches. As long as humans are running the matches, mistakes, personalities, and other factors sometimes create less than perfect results. This happens regardless of the sport.
As Forest Gump said, "that's all I've got to say about that".
Sorry Mark for the rant................................. I'm done.
-
Tightloop:
I guess our roles are reversed. The feelings and opinions you have against IDPA are exactly the same ones I have against USPSA. The rationale used by those who come from USPSA, attempt to shoot IDPA, and then get disgruntled because they can't game their way to a stage win vs. shooting well, is irrelevant in this forum.
We can agree to disagree on this issue.
Far too often this forum is used by USPSA shooters to bash IDPA (maybe I'm a little guilty of that in the USPSA forums).
I'm issuing myself a moratorium in regards to the USPSA forums. I'll no longer make comments on those forums as I no longer shoot USPSA.
By the way, airgunning is still against the rules!
-
The Jentra OT Stop looks to be "gimicky". Should the set screw that holds it on the trigger bar ever loosen up, it's possible that trigger function could be inhibited.
The Lone Wolf solution would appear to be more stable as does the Ghost Rocket connector.
-
Rmills,
In my experience trying to get a rules decision from headquarters is akin to pulling teeth out of a hippo. I understand that after almost 4 years there are going to be some out of date rules, but almost any organization I have been a part of has been able to figure out how to rewrite a 50 page book every 1-2 years. For hell sakes IDPA could at least update the webpage. IMHO it is a poor excuse for an organization to impart on its members the responsibility of chasing down the lates rules. Not to mention how do I give out a procedural or enforce a rule with respect to a relatively new shooter who is following the LGB but has not become savvy enough to carry around a notebook of updates.
Craig
In our area we see none of the incidents that everyone is refering to. When we ask for a ruling from HQ, we receive it and then present it before the match starts. It's never an issue. For what it's worth, I quit shooting USPSA after 12 years due to all of the reasons stated above concerning IDPA. Issues such as 40 rounds from one shooting position in one string, shooters being able to argue why they should not be penalized for completely circumventing the stage procedure (and winning the argument most of the time), made it apparent that the organization was loosing all credibility.
The number of competitors at our matches continues to increase each year.
Anyway, back to airgunning...................
-
rmills,
With all due respect you say IDPA is a different set of rules, yet you quote Ken's Corner for the rules. Ken's Corner is not the LGB and therein lies the problem of objectivity. Too many times an FTDR or procedural is given based on what someone has read in a magazine/interpreted/been told/dreampt up/etc. As an active IDPA shooter (I actually shoot both IDPA and USPSA) I see this as a problem our sport needs to address. If IDPA wants to be different than USPSA so be it, but the subjective interpretation/application of the rules is going to continue to haunt us until we fix our own house. Also IMHO if the prevailing attitude of "IDPA is different, if you don't like it tough &*^%. " continues, we will be sending a negative message to those who would normally try and possibly continue to support the organization.
Take care, Craig
IDPA Headquarters has ruled that "airgunning" is not allowed. If one requests the new rule in writing, just e-mail Dru at headquarters. Just because the organization has not printed a new rule book recently does not mean that the rule doesn't apply. If one truly needs to "airgun" to prepare for a stage, they are missing one of the basic principles of our sport, being ready to shoot on demand.
-
On another note, since we try in IDPA to create possible real world scenario's, is it proper to have a steel popper, that when hit, opens a window or door to allow access to the targets behind?
Your thoughts................
Two things here:
1. Knocking down a popper (bg) could cause the other targets (bg's) to react...thus, opening windows and doors.
2. "since we try in IDPA to create possible real world scenario's" It seems that lining up two targets for a shoot-thru would be a departure from RW? I could see it as a shooting test in a gamey competition, but maybe not the best idea to simulate RW? Even as a shooting test, there are likely other ways to provide a similar challenge?
In the old days (real world) when we used .357FMJ ammo to hunt dear, it was typical to see the other side of the beast blown out. Yes, hollow points do seem to want to enter and stay put. Again, just putting the idea out to to what other's thought of the idea since it is legal (unless the COF description says otherwise).
-
I personally prefer the "solve the problem" stages over the choreographed stages that are common place in IDPA. To me the ideal stage is start here and finish there, all IDPA rules apply. It's a shame there aren't more of those type stages....
At our monthly matches, we typically have 1 to 2 "Standard Excercise" stages and the the other four are typically freestyle.
-
Freestyle is really not much of an issue in most cases because dance steps are everywhere. This was the very first CoF example I encountered from the USPSA course book:
“STAGE PROCEDURE
On signal, engage T1 - T4 ONLY from Box A; move to Box B
and engage T5 – T8 ONLY from Box B; move to Box C and
engage T9 - T12 ONLY from Box C. Targets may only be
engaged from within a box.”
The Internet gives us access to thousands of published CoF's for both IPSC and IDPA. The type of stage you describe is very uncommon in either discipline. Any requirement of the stage is a dance step. Some have fewer than others but they nearly all have them. Target order is a dance step, required number or placement of rounds is a dance step, movement is a dance step, choosing a port is a dance step. In Bill’s example: “a car behind you that you had to retreat to and use as cover” is a dance step and the use of cover requires a certain target order (in IDPA).
In the tango the upper body is just as important as the feet, and just as carefully choreographed. If you know your partner well the process requires no communication beyond following the music. At a club match the description, “Move to cover and engage the remaining threats” can work well if everyone knows how to fill in the blanks (slice-the-pie, reload behind cover, etc). When there is more at stake designers tend to fill in the blanks for you so as to eliminate argument.
geezer
I agree. The IDPA rule book states that shooting boxes should not be used if possible and the the COF designer should use vision barriers, etc. to create the scenario. The shooter should have freedom to move as they see fit while using cover, etc.
I too tired of the "From Box A engage ONLY T1 and T2, etc.".
-
This was a stage the Springfield guys put on at Hancock County.
Imagine this if you can. In a semi circle starting on the left side of the bay. 1 target at contact distance that must be engaged from retention. Then freestyle for the rest.
Target placing going from left to right, a target at 5 yds or so. A swinger with some hard cover and no shoots. 2 five foot targets straight down range with two Poppers in front of them. A drop turner. Then 2 more targets toward the right side of the bay. There were hard cover and no shoots sprinkled around to limit where you could see some of the targets. At the signal engage the contact target first and the rest in any order. They were all about the same distance. Either Popper would activate both the drop turner and the swinger. There was a car behind you that you had to retreat to and use as cover after you got there. All shots had to be fired while retreating or from cover. It was fun. One of those stages that you just wanted to shoot again to see if you could improve your score. Bill Nesbitt
Looks like a fun stage!
-
This takes the fun out of the sport for me. My buddies still shoot mainly in IDPA and they have a good time. More power to them, but ouside of a few local club matches I'll be saving my shooting budget for other sports.
I feel your pain bud. Come on over to an objective competition. I did and I am better shooter for it.
What I find ironic is that there is no subjectivity when it comes to the shooting in IDPA (COF's set in such a way that there is only one way to shoot it). However, the IDPA rules and their application are totally subjective, which is inherently contradictory IMO.
The comparison of IDPA to another shooting sport seems to be appearing here again. IDPA is not IPSC or USPSA. Different set of rules.
-
I have seen more than a few shooters "scan" the targets after I assume they were done with the gun. I didnt believe that this was a rule infraction. I actually thought that it was very much in line with the overall scope of what IDPA is about. Making sure.
Scanning the targets with the pistol after the last shot is fired is 100% OK as one wants to make sure that all threats are neutralized. However, after the unload command is given the shooter may not take another sight picture with the pistol. As always, airgunning sight pictures are never allowed.
-
Sight pictures of any kind (before or after a stage) are illegal in IDPA. I've only seen procedurals given for them up to now. What were the specifics as to why the SO gave a FTDR? If the circumstances warrant it, then a FTDR was the right call.
Where did you get "or after a stage" from?
The book says :
There will be NO sight pictures allowed on any IDPA range. Doing so will result in a 3-second procedural penalty.and from
Vol 8 Issue 3 : Ken's Corner
"Please note that in IDPA, there are NO sight pictures allowed. If you take one, you will get a three second procedural. Checking your shooting position by 'air gunning' is considered taking a sight picture by IDPA. I have had people tell me that since they don't actually have a gun in their hands that they are not violating the rule....whether a real gun or imaginary gun, you get a three second procedural. You can 'air gun' if you want, but be prepared for 3 seconds added to your score."I'm sure both apply to anything before the LAMR command.
We have a couple of guys that reload and 'cover down' on the targets after their last shot is fired , are you saying they should get a PE for this practice?
Mark
Mark: I was just making the point that NO sight pictures are allowed at any time.
-
Keep in mind that in designing a stage that would allow shoot-thru's, the shooter would need to move to a point that would take more time to get to. It would be the shooter's choice to fire rounds from relatively close positions or move to other positions farther away and shoot less rounds but adding extra time for movement.
Again, this topic was to generate ideas (pro or con) in regards to the shoot-thru scenario.
On another note, since we try in IDPA to create possible real world scenario's, is it proper to have a steel popper, that when hit, opens a window or door to allow access to the targets behind?
Your thoughts................
-
Sight pictures of any kind (before or after a stage) are illegal in IDPA. I've only seen procedurals given for them up to now. What were the specifics as to why the SO gave a FTDR? If the circumstances warrant it, then a FTDR was the right call.
I think I actually said something like, "I don't agree with every rule in IDPA, but I still follow them." 
Please define "air gunning"
in IDPA Shooting
Posted
Other than Standard Excercises, IDPA COF's don't dictate reload types or shooting positions. Reloads must be performed as outlined in the rulebook in regards to not dropping a mag with any rounds in it and reloading from behind cover. The competitor may engage targets as they appear while using any available cover. When multiple targets are present, they must be engaged in a proper defensive order (Tactical Sequence or Tactical Priority depending on the position and cover available) as outlined in the rulebook. No, one cannot stand in the open with cover available and hose the targets.