rmills
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Posts posted by rmills
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A "Thanks" to Joyce Wilson and others for their efforts in this new rule book. Yes, it's been a long time coming but the end result will justify the wait. The fact that HQ took the time to carefully consider, analyze, and then modify the rules vs. constantly changing them in a knee jerk manner is admirable.
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Does anyone know if the Chevy Sportsman's Challenge is still going on?
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The LGB says on page 18: "Non-threat targets shall not be located so that they will be hit when threat targets are struck."
There was a state match a few years ago that was a complete procedural/no-shoot trap.
I think that's why no-shoots are limited now. Bill Nesbitt
Bill, you are correct (as usual).
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well, here we go again, I still say if we shoot the same gun a 1911 for instance, and you only have to make 125 while I have to make 165, even if you don't call it major, there is major / minor.
just another idea not really thought out by the cartel.
You only have to reach the 165PF floor if you choose to particpate in CDP division. You would not be competing against another 1911 shooting in ESP division utilizing the 125PF floor. The two divisions are completely separate, period. There is no "match winner" in IDPA, only division winners.
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"Honestly, why do people say "well, then we'd be like IPSC and we don't want that?". IDPA is a whole lot more like IPSC than it is to any other shooting sport. Why is that bad?"
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Because IPSC and USPSA are different shooting sports with a completely different set of rules even though both IPSC and USPSA appear to mimic IDPA.
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"I too noticed that in both IDPA and CAS the participants pretend that other things (tactics, costumes etc) are more important the scores or winning. I suggest that you remove all methods of scoring and call the SOs TCs. (Tactics Counselors) And then it becomes a controlled training session and all the aforementioned problems go away. But I guess we would have to come up with something to combat trainsmanship. And Failure to Train Right."
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In IDPA there is no pretending. Hitting the targets with accurate and fast shots is the goal. While IPSC and USPSA provide a pretend scenario where one can use custom race guns to emulate battles with virtually unlimited targets that pose no threat as well as allowing virtually unlimited ammo, IPDA gives the competitors a place to evaluate their skills using real world practical pistols along with the requirements of using tactics similiar to what one may use have to use in a real world confrontation such as use of cover.
And no, IPDA is not training. Experts such as Ken Hackathorn provide real world training. IDPA gives us a chance to practice what we have learned.
What would I do to improve IDPA? Provide a better means of educating the masses as to what IPDA really is.
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Divisions rules would stay the same except that single stack 45's would need to play with everyone else even if other guns hold two more rounds. If you want to shoot a single stack that is the game. If you feel at a disadvantage not having the extra two rounds, maybe you should carry something else.
Huh? So, eliminate CDP, the second largest division in the sport? Monkies will fly out of Madonna's butt before that happens.
Didn't she already do that at a concert?
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More realistic is a NT behind the target that forces shooter to change position to avoid shoot thru in any case.
Great idea! Truly a real world possibility. This opens the door to some very creative COF's.
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Many good comments and voicing, but most, likely a waste of time. The tail does not wag the dog. The Organization IS run from the top down. We all have vote in National Presidential Elections. Does it really cause immediate change?
If you don't like IDPA, shoot IPSC. If you don't like that shoot NRA Action. If not that there is PPC and Bullseye. Free pistol, rapid fire etc. No shooting event can ever be all things to all people. Thank goodness we are all diferent, and sometime really different. I have to eat different foods to satisfy different tastes.
TACTICAL? You do not create the COF to be tactical. You figure out the best likely tactical way to shoot the COF. There is a huge difference, and what may be tactical from a survivability standpoint for you may be slightly or significantly different for you than it is for me. We have differing body sizes, physical abilitities and shooting skills. What may be safe or easy for you, may be almost impossible and dangerous for me. There are fundamentals, but survivability sometimes violates fundamentals as the situation changes. Tactically, smoke can change vision significantly when there is more than one shooter and one of those shooters is SHOOTING at you.
You want real tactical? Most PDs need help, and certainly there are plenty of tactical matches in Iraq and Afghanistan for you to attend. ALL of our shooting is a game. Enjoy it for what it is, because that is all that it is. It cannot be made into something it is not. Yes, improvemnets may be able to be made, but spend that time shooting. More trigger time and less keyboard time. You'll be amazed at how much you can learn with your finger on the trigger than you can with your fingers on the keys!
BTW, I read a fair amount here but post little. I am a master, high master, grand master in five different pistol disciplines. So I have tryed a lot of stuff. It is all shooting, but they offer different things for you to overcome, and yes there are as many different guns too.
If you want your own organization, just do it! Complaining about this one is not likely going to accomplish anything. By the way, that green grass on the other side has to be mowed too!
Be safe, shoot lots, life is short!
MJ
Ditto...............
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If you insist on making a shooter have a knee on the ground, knee pads should be allowed -even with shorts.
Allow more steel in COF. Steel is a reactive target, as are threat targets in real life.
Revise the classifier. It is easy to shoot the classifier at a higher level than you are capable of competing at in a real match. Most COF in matches are field courses. Less emphasis on shooting while advancing as this is an unrealistic situation. It is defensive pistol, not offensive pistol.
Boost COF round count from 18 to 24 rounds. Keep repeating -This is a game and most want to shoot ALOT. Get rid of stages with only 6 rounds in them unless several strings are involved. And let everyone carry an extra mag or speedloader if they need to. THIS IS A SHOOTING GAME SO LET US SHOOT!
Less COF specifying type of reload or when. Let the shooter determine where to reload and what method works best. That is exactly how it will be in real life.
Let folks wear what they want to wear. If you are going to allow some of the obviously gamer vests worn by some of the "shooting club teams" ,get off the backs of others with certain footwear or baggy cargo pants.
Got to be some standardization of training and proficiency level for SOs. Just because someone wants to be an SO and attend training doesn't mean they can do it right. Most are great but many have no clue to what the rules are so they just wing it. I've even seen the SOs argue between themselves over the rules and course description for a stage. Doesn't make a shooter very confident in those running the match.
Actual physical line or barriers to do away with the inconsistant SO interpretation of use of cover. Yes, a foot fault to make sure shooters stay behind cover is better than the being at the mercy of an SO who is not viewing the targets the same way the shooter is.
CDP- any caliber over .40 making the required power factor. Retain 8 rd max loaded mag capacity in all calibers in CDP.
Revolvers- Make it legal if you want to have a revolver modified for moon clips. Not everyone wants to carry a huge 625 on their belt.
Having to stow an empty mag because you still have one round in the pipe needs to go. All this does is cause folks to put an extra round downrange to get to slidelock. If the mag is empty, it is of no use. Dump it! If there are still rounds left in it, there is already a rule regarding that.
FTDR- F*****g Totally Dumb Rule. We aren't a bunch of 2nd graders so quit treating us like one. Reminds me of when Mom says, "Because I said so".
Get rid of the holster list. Make it simple.
1) Must cover trigger and trigger guard.
2) Must retain handgun while moving/running.
3) Cannot be cut lower than the ejection port(pistol) or top strap (revolver)
4) Must not hang lower than designated distance from belt.
5) Must not extend outward from belt per designated distance.
Get a rule book that works and get rid of the anti USPSA garbage. Very unprofessional and juvenile sounding. Actually borders on jealousy.
Plus calling HQ for an inaccurate, inconsistant, and generally unknowledgable answer doesn't cut it. Good luck getting an email response within a week if at all.
Again- Get a rule book that works.
BOD needs to be elected by members for fresh and unbiased input. As an appointed position, there will never be growth in the organization. The members are what make IDPA a success. Keep them from being involved and you will drive them away.
It makes no sense that once you have neutralized targets, you CANNOT do a reload in front of them while moving to the next position. They are Neutralized!!! They are no longer a threat so why the inconsistant rule? As long as the reload is done while not exposed to targets that have not yet been engaged, this should be allowed.
RE: The Nationals:
If you provide lunches, make it worth while. Not the crappy prepackaged sandwich and chips. Maybe those furnishing kegs of beer for the hospitality room can skip providing for the drunks and instead chip in for decent meals on match days that everyone can enjoy.
Match hotel needs to be in a safe, decent and convenient location with enough parking for any events being held there. This has not been the case since the match moved to Little Rock. It was not a problem when the match was held elsewhere in the past.
As IDPA is based on defensive scenario's even the 18 round limit on COF's is extensive. Typically (help me out Mr. Hackathorn) very few shots are fired in a real life confrontation.
Physical fault lines are unecessary. Our sport is based on using available cover, period.
This set of suggested changes makes IDPA look more like USPSA, which is something we certainly do not want. We shoot IDPA because of it's defensive pistol scenario's, not how many rounds the match consists of. If I want to shoot a lot of rounds and utilize hard fault lines, I'd go to a USPSA match.
Two different sports..................................
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Does it allow rotation to to a reverse cant (barrel out front, grip behind)?
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Bruce Lee once said:
"In memory of a once fluid man, crammed and distorted by the classical mess".
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I don’t think there is a snowball’s chance in hell that the FTDR will ever go away. It was adopted as a deliberately punitive measure and is pointed squarely at IPSC/USPSA shooters. This is what Ken wrote in the “Tactical Journal” (I have added emphasis in bold).
"Decades ago, Frank Glover's crew down in North Carolina had come up with the 'Failure to do Right' rule for their Three-Gun Tactical Matches. This FTDR was worth 20 seconds in penalties…which pretty well knocked you out of the competition on the stage you were shooting if you tried to "beat the system". We adopted the 'FTDR' Rule in IDPA as a means of keeping everyone in line. It seems to be rarely ever used. This may be because the threat of twenty seconds added to your score is enough to keep most contestants honest…or there may also be a reluctance to use it because it can be so severe as to knock any major competitor out of the race. My view is that it needs to be used more often. I see too many people, who know better, try to circumvent the Rules, equipment requirements, and argue a procedural penalty that deserve a FTDR. IDPA defines a 'FTDR' as: "Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or techniques".
If you have a background in IPSC and bring your competition habits to IDPA and get penalties, don't be surprised. In much of IPSC/USPSA, the concept of arguing with the RO with the hope of winning or gaming your way out of a penalty may result in an FTDR in IDPA…just a warning folks."
geezer
No, it's not aimed at only IPSC/USPSA shooters, it's aimed at any and all who attempt to circumvent the rules or proceedures to gain an unfair advantage.
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Heinie Slant Pro sights, a polished 3.5# connector, polished stainless steel guide rod, and a Wolff Reduced power striker spring (don't use this spring with CCI primers).
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In regards to Power Factor, I agree with Duane 100%, there is no need for Major/Minor scoring. The playing field is leveled in SSP and ESP divisions in regards to equipment, only shooting skills prevail, not the ability to tune one's pistol to reduce recoil from shooting a major load.
I disagree, only the physical ability to manage recoil relative to PF prevails. If it was about shooting only, we'd all be shooting 22 rimfires.
Why, exactly, is tuning a gun that shoots 165 PF ammo made to feel like shooting 125 PF ammo a bad thing? I don't understand. I'm not suggesting that a 5" 1911 with a 7 port comp, an Aimpoint tube and 170 mm magazines is realistic concealed carry option, but isn't the point for the shooter to be able to deliver multiple rounds of full charge ammo on target as accurately and quickly as possible?
Why go thru all of the trouble of adding Major/Minor scoring with all of the work and complexity involved to integrate it into our sport and then go about tuning a 165PF pistol to shoot like a .22? Why????????
Let's not attempt to fix something that is not broken.
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I don't know what the hell they are thinking, but not answering emails really chaps my ass. I thought I was the only one.
IDPA HQ has always answered my e-mails. Sometimes it takes a few days but they do reply.
As far as forming a new organization, go for it. The rest of us want to keep IDPA as it is and not let it become USPSA "like".
No sight pictures (or airgunning), FTDR penalties to keep the gamers and range lawyers in check, equipment rules that promote shooting ability and not equipment races, and most importantly, friendly (non "I've got to win at any cost") people, that's why we shoot and enjoy IDPA.
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The "Failure To Do Right" Penalty should stay. It keeps the sport a shooting competition and not a "let's figure out a way to circumvent the stage description to save time and win" fiasco.
At a major USPSA match 5-6 years ago, a COF description stated that targets X, Y, and Z needed to be engaged only thru doorway A. It stated all rounds must pass thru the doorway. One female shooter while shooting the stage ran thru the doorway all the way up to the targets and hosed. She was able to "range lawyer" her way out of a bunch of penalties by stating, "all of my rounds did pass thru the doorway, they were on me when I went thru". To everyone's disgust, no penalties were given. The clear intent of the stage description was that shooters would shoot thru the doorway and then move on to the next targets.
This is a perfect example of why the FTDR rule is needed.
Don't attempt to fix that which is not broken.
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First off, I shoot both IDPA and IPSC, and enjoy the heck out of both.
That said, I agree with the previous posters - most of the rule changes proposed in this thread would make it too much like "IPSC-lite." The reason that I shoot IDPA is that it is different from IPSC - if it became more similar I would probably give it up.
- Chris
Right on Chris!
The rules themselves stand on their own. They are simple and need not be changed. The only thing I would ask to be changed is the way HQ handles the rules clarifications. When more verbage is needed to clarify an existing rule, then HQ should send out an official update to each member to be added to their rulebook.
The previous poster who stated something to the effect that IDPA was created for those who can't compete in USPSA is ridiculous.
Everyone should read Hackathorn's pages in this issue of the Tactical Journal (mine came today). He hits the nail on the head with a big hammer in regards to his comments about IDPA not becoming "a grand national organization where creating celebrities was the goal".
For those who mistakenly believe that Bill Wilson created IDPA to sell more Wilson pistols, take a look at the equipment survey for the Nationals, most competitors used a Glock. A very small percentage used Wilson 1911's. Over 50% of the pistols used were non-1911.
In regards to Power Factor, I agree with Duane 100%, there is no need for Major/Minor scoring. The playing field is leveled in SSP and ESP divisions in regards to equipment, only shooting skills prevail, not the ability to tune one's pistol to reduce recoil from shooting a major load.
Michael Bane, as I was watching shooting Gallery the other evening, the instructor at the tactical shooting school that was featured clearly did tactical reloads while clearing several rooms. Why did you not correct him on his poor technique? Just curious.
Keep IDPA as it is. Don't let it become just another "USPSA like" competition.
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Why don't you guys just rename it USPSA Jr. ?
Kneepads - Sorry, I don't like the idea of being at a match with people that look like a bunch of roofers.
Choreography - I agree to some extent. It's all about COF design. You get what the MD wants/likes to do 90% of the time. I like to see people sort it out and shoot it different ways. Sometimes I like to force them to perform a reload to break up the rhythm and make them think. It's all good IMO.
Forced kneeling at low cover is a stability rule and should stay IMO. Same reason why kneeling should be at the end of a COF so you don't put the slower moving folks at a greater disadvantage. Same reason there's a 10yd movement limit.
Speed reloads. Another dead horse topic. How much ammo do you carry? How much are you willing to leave behind? blah blah blah. Or take it away and bump the min round count and see how precious each bullet becomes.
If you have a sport that requires use of cover there's always going to be tough calls to make. Deal with it.
Move 10mm back to CDP for the sole reason that it will shut my good friend John Forsyth up. For a little while anyway.
Great Point Mayonaise!
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On the same topic, geeeeez, you guys can *remember* 1997?
Well, I have an advantage. Since I have no real life, I have plenty of empty spaces in my noggin to file away unimportant trivia.
It rained like a mo-fo on Sunday at the 97 Area 5. I think I saw a couple of ROs building an ark from target stands and sticks.
On Saturday afternoon, the water was up to our ankles on the "Aliens" and "Cheese" stages.
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I had this happen several times over the years with SVI mag tubes. I typically sent them back and they replaced them. That was 4-5 years ago.
Good luck!
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Does anyone have any idea where the Ohio State IDPA Championship will be held in 2005?
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If one comes from USPSA and attempts IDPA and then bashes it becuase they attempted to do something they would do in USPSA that isn't legal in IDPA, who is at fault, the sport or the individual?
Roy,
I think this reflects in many of your posts. You wrongly assume that the reason someone has problems with IDPA is because they are trying to do some kind of voodoo USPSA conversion. I know for a fact that for me and many others, this is not the case. I am lucky enough to have two IDPA clubs and two IPSC clubs within an hour of me, with each shooting on a different Sat. I shoot 4 weekends a month. I have no problem following different rules. However I get frustrated when a legitimate question/problem comes forth and members such as yourself blow it off as simply a "gamer" trying to change the rules for an advantage/dislike/ etc.
IDPA is faced with some serious growth problems. They are legitimate and will only grow larger the longer they are ignored. Bill and Ken need to step forward and clarify some rules and update others. It is very evident to myself and many others that the reason for not doing so does not have so much to do with doctrine as it does personal egos. This is sad. Solutions to almost all the current questions could be easily developed and implemented while still remaining true to the IDPA doctrine. It is only a matter of Bill and Ken stepping up and doing the right thing. Time will tell, but the matters will need to be addressed.
Take care, Craig
Bill and Ken have stepped up in keeping our IDPA game within it's original doctrine. I applaud them for not caving in to those who would wish to move the sport from it's basic premise.
Some of the founder's goals for IDPA were:
1) A stable, non-changing rule book, preventing the need for range lawyers and not allowing shooters to "game" their way to a win.
2) Preventing an equipment race so shooters did not have to spend $3000 on a pistol to be competitive.
Just as IPSC refuses to dilute the Production division by changing the rules to allow for a myriad of pistol modifications, IDPA chooses to stick with it's rules to keep the sport stable and simple.
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Vince:
Great answers to questions in this topic. I don't see why so many are confused with IPSC Production division. It's designed for factory production pistols only, period. If one wants to modify their pistol, that's what the other divisions are for. The fact that IPSC is preventing the division from becoming something else is admirable. As you stated, it's the fastest growing division so the concept is working.
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I shot Area 5 in 1997.
What rule discrepencies did you observe?
One thing that was observed was a member in our squad shooting an SVI with a "Hybrid" rib extending thru the slide. Shooter's connection had attempted to get Amidon's approval during that time to make the setup legal for Limited. He had ruled it was not. At the chronograph, the modification was pointed out and the individual should have been moved to Open class. He was not because the chronograph operators stated that they were not aware of the rule.
In regards to the Super Squad, there was a stage that stated one had to hold a window open with one hand while shooting with another. We had asked if we could use another part of our body (head, shoulder, etc.) to hold it open and were told no. On the next day we observed some super shooters using their head. Same RO's. When asked, we were given no reasons by the RO's why they had allowed this. When we asked for a re-shot, we were told "No".
At the Area 8 a COF stated that all rounds had to pass between the "donkey's" legs. One shooter bypassed the legs and shot below the neck. Once a penalty was applied he argued that he did not receive a competitive advantage (we felt he did because while shooting under the neck one did not have to go down as far) and the RO removed the penalty. This non-advantage took approx. 1 second off of his time, an eternity on a speed shoot. When others asked if they could do the same, they were told "no" as he had made a mistake and recieved "No competitive advantage". When the MD was asked about it, he agreed with the RO. Everyone who had shot the stage before should have been given a re-shoot and those after should have been allowed to do the same.
One of the big issues with USPSA is how penalties are applied. Too often we heard "Well, he did not really gain an advantage so we won't penalize him". This displays issues with USPSA rules and their subjectivity. The subjectivity card can be played in all sports. I'm finished in this topic as there is no reason to keep defending IDPA from IDPA bashers in this forum. IDPA needs no defense. It is what it is. If you don't like it, play elsewhere.
I think that's why no-shoots are limited now. 
IDPA Bashing
in IDPA Shooting
Posted
Interesting, we have seen two solid days of extremely negative comments in this forum in regards to IDPA and also personal affronts to Bill and Joyce Wilson. Are the moderators still on holiday?
It's interesting to note that after many requested a division for 7 and 8 round revolvers, it's fascinating to see so many complaining about it.
No, SVI's and STI's have not been eliminated.
All of the equipment I have been using for years is still 100% legal.
The new rules clarified many things and created a few new questions that need to be addressed. It was a giant step in a positive direction. At this moment HQ is addressing possible "fubars" in regards to revolver weight issues and others.
I wonder what the atmosphere would have been like if IDPA had been the action shooting sport all of these years and IPSC or USPSA was the new sport in town. Imagine the comments..........................
As for the topic "IPSC Membership Drive", please...........................take it to the "other" forums.