Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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It shouldn't i called the LaMarca's to get the dates so I could schedule it. unless they've changed the dates of SMM3G that they told me, mine will be the weekend before.
I would also liketo take a second to thank, R&R Racing for their generous offer to supply plates for the match, so now we have a large quantity of 4" plates to take the place of most of the clays, and they are the same size.
Thank you R & R!!!!!!!!!!
trapr
Hi Trapr
You might know anyway, and you might not care, but just in case .......
4" plates aren't legal as targets in either IPSC or USPSA. Minimum for square or oblong plates is 6". Minimum for round plates is 6" IPSC and 8" USPSA.
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Ouch again... my bad and old memory makes me remember things that don't exist. I will definately remember that Finland team was gold medalist at standard division at ESC 2006.
Now that I can agree with. Raine was a very worthy winner and in fact anyone that can push Kurt Miller into 2nd place is a real quality shooter.
ESC09 will be another match to remember, as indeed will be the PanAm in 2010.
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Ouch, my bad mistake. I meant European Championship of course.
Sorry, but that doesn't stack up either. The results show Dirk second in the Europeans on 82.44% behind VACLAV VINDUSKA of the Czech Republic.
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Yes it can but Dirk Frey world champion of IPSC shotgun open division uses Molot Vepr shotgun.
IPSC hasn't yet held a world championship for shotgun so while Dirk is good the statement above is incorrect.
There are discussions in hand to possibly hold a shotgun WS in 2011.
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Neil, Where'd you find the new rule for this? I've haven't seen anything else but slugs at paper yet.. just wondering...
In the January 2008 Shotgun rules
All I see is this..
9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper
targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best
hit to score in the case of slug ammunition or with the best two hits to
score in the case of buckshot ammunition, i.e. the two highest scoring
strikes of any pellets from any buckshot rounds fired
Dave
Dave
You're still looking at the first set of rules. If you check out the USPSA website you will fiind 4 sets of revisions. Basically a number of USPSA HG rules had been revised for 2008 and these revisions were then applied to the SG and rifle rules. Trouble was the the revised HG rules didn't always work for SG and Rifle (surprise, surprise). Add to this that the HG rules were brought up to date to take on board a great many of the IPSC 2006 HG revisions but the 2004 SG & R rules weren't updated to stay in line at the same time. This then created a number of anomolies. I haven't checked the latest set thoroughly but they're better than they were but unfortunately there have been some sacrifices on the way.
9.5.1 now reads:
9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best hit to score. Metal targets must fall to score. Frangible targets must break with a visible piece missing or separated from the original target to be counted for score.
2.1.11 has been changed to read:
2.1.11 A competitor must never be required to shoot at paper targets using birdshot or buckshot ammunition.
A heap of other rules have been changed as well.
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Neil
In truth I don't think this was the issue.
After the first set of USPSA 2008 SG rules were released I had a quick look through and found some significant problems that needed fixing. It's a long story and there is no need to go into it here. However, I want to see stand alone shotgun matches develop wherever and whenever and so I emailed Mike Voigt and John Amidon with a list of the problems. Some of these were related to buckshot.
Disappointingly, The fix that has been chosen is to remove the option to shoot buckshot at paper targets. I wonder if this is to make the integration with 3-gun easier? The number of hits on paper no-shoots was one such issue. It does seem a little as if a sledgehammer has been used to crack the nut and of course it is a shame to lose the target option.
On a brighter note the IPSC style shotgun match put on by Trapr and Kurt, and discussed HERE, has been a great success and with more similar matches to follow. I also think the Level IV PanAmerican match will be a revelation.
As long as people are pulling a trigger then it can't be all bad.
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I'm not sure how many of you may have spotted that the USPSA SG, rifle and 3-gun rules have all been revised very recently (2nd set of rules for 2008).
One significant change is that you can no longer select buckshot to be shot against paper targets.
If this is something you want to do/try then you still have an option to run an IPSC Shotgun match in the US, which allows (even encourages) this as an alternative option.
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So, for those of you that hadn't tried IPSC style stages before, how was it?
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Yes Neil, it is just a USPSA thing. Open just isn,t open over here! I believe it is a 10+ 1 limit. Most any IPSC open gun wouldn't be Division Legal in USPSA...who said we were freer than you
KURTMThats to bad amigo, I hope that gets changed before the 2010 match, im sure the drum mags will be in abundance in Germany this July.
By the way I have booked the Hotel in Philippsburg for everyone including you guys, im looking forward to the European tour this summer
N
Neil
The 2010 match is the IPSC Level IV PanAmerican championships and as such will conform to the IPSC rules.
Just a thought guys, please remember that you have a choice of rulebooks. The USPSA is still the authorised Regional body responsible for IPSC shooting in the US. Therefore it is perfectly feasible for any of you to run an IPSC shotgun match (Level I - III). Open will be Open and Standard Division starts with 9 in the gun but after the start signal anything goes. The IPSC shotgun rules really aren't so different as Trapr and Kurt can verify.
Indeed the the USPSA Board is on record in having said they would like to see both USPSA and IPSC matches on the US calendar.
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I'm using Office 2003 and Acrobat 8 professional and I've had a problem with printing to Acrobat.
Actually I had written a VBA script to print to PDF and automatically save the file with a unique file name (incorporating date and time) to a specified directory. The script fell over every time with Acrobat and part of the problem was returning the settings back to the default printer. I found from an advanced techy forum that it was a known problem with Excel and Acrobat.
The solution for me was to install PrimoPDF as mentioned by warpspeed. It's really good software and works perfectly in the routine. Fast and efficient. I call the printer, output the file and return the system back to status quo.
Funnily enough the software suggested as an alternative fix (instead of PrimoPDF) was CutePDF.
Sometimes it isn't worth the time fixing a problem when it's much easier to step around it. If it works don't fix it!
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Benny what lenght barrel? I run a 24" for Open. Fed and the Winchester Ranger low recoil seemed to pattern about the same.
I have never shot a match that required buckshot on paper, but reviewed the stages from the 06 European SG Championship and noted the match required buckshot hits on paper. I am thinking of trying it out at some of my matches (buckshot on paper) regarding scoring hits on no-shoots are you penalized for every buckshot hit?
In the UK we've been shooting buck on paper targets for 20+ years and it can certainly add an extra dimension to the stage. We will often add overlapping no-shoots but you have to be careful to not push the targets back too far because of inconsistent patterns biting the competitor. On the other hand if you set the targets too close then you create 2 problems to consider. Firstly buckshot can quickly destroy a paper target and secondly you get a lot of holes to patch. There are steps you can take to minimise these issues so that paper targets can still be included on a buckshot stage without any significant issues.
If you don’t add a no-shoot then by all means push the targets back and this results in less hits and less target damage.
On scoring targets you simply score the 2 highest scoring hits and ignore the extras, i.e. with 00 buck: 1 shot = 9 holes but only = 2 hits for score.
We don’t very often include more than 4 paper targets on a stage. I've seen more but you need to crew the stage appropriately. Next you could use disposable targets and I specifically created the A4/A and the A3/B paper targets that can be replaced per shooter. Simply create the template and then copy (xerox) enough for the match. The cost can be easily absorbed from a match entry fee.
Unfortunately there are some issues with the USPSA SG rules, particularly the new 2008 USPSA SG rules. I wrote to John Amidon and Mike Voigt about 2 weeks ago with a couple of pages of what I see to be problems. Some of these are new to the 2008 rules and some were there in the 2004 rules. I'll only discuss the ones concerned with buckshot. I haven't heard back from Mike yet and I couldn't tell from John's reply whether he will be issuing amendments who leaving things as they are. I hope it's not the latter because there are some fundamental issues that I think need attention.
Without wishing to open up old sores the principle reason the IPSC shotgun rules set a limit of a maximum of 2 hits to count on a no-shoot is because of the problem of multiple strikes from buckshot. The max-2-hits limit has been removed and so a single screw up with a paper no-shoot with buckshot could wipe out a stage under the revised USPSA rules. You could be penalised for (say) 9 hits for a single error. I have asked John and Mike to reconsider this aspect. One way around this is to use a metal no-shoot in front of a scoring paper target. Metal no-shoots in SG MUST fall to score and so the multiple strikes aren't the same problem.
Unfortunately the USPSA rules have also removed the option to nominate the maximum number of pellets per cartridge for reasons of match expediency. It is the norm in IPSC on buckshot stages to set a limit of 9 pellets max for 12 gauge with a separate limit for 20 gauge. The USPSA rules allow a limit to be set but ONLY for reasons of safety.
This brings you back to disposable targets and metal no-shoots or run the match to the IPSC rules and in all honesty I don’t think the differences are anywhere near those as for the HG rules. The USPSA supports both sets of rules anyway so all perfectly ligit – your choice
Of course for so called “outlaw” 3 gun matches then it would seem that a 2-hit limit could be adopted in any case.
Trapr and Kurt may comment on their thoughts of suitability of the IPSC rules instead of the USPSA rules.
On the other hand Mike and John may amend the rules and then these problems may go away.
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There was another discussion on this of a similar nature HERE
I included some pictures of some alternatives methods of carrying pairs of cartridges.
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I agree with Trapr's comments but add a couple more.
It is fairly common, certainly outside of the US to set a maximum of 9 pellets per cartridge. This is because in helps with match expediency when shooting buckshot at paper targets.
Secondly - Don't over choke the gun. Full choke for example constricts the barrel too much and causes the bellets to knock into each other resulting in a less consistent pattern. Yes the bulk of the pattern may be tighter but you will often see 1 or 2 flyers to are off to the side of the main pattern. This can bite you if there are no-shoots nearby. Personally I try not to shoot buckshot with anything more than Modified choke.
I wrote something on shotgun patterning for the IPSC Global Village and included a number of pictures. The link is below:
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It always amazes me how many ROs shove the timer behind their backs and haven't got a clue about what the final reading should be.
The easy solution and good practice is to ensure that the timer is angled towards the RO for the last shot. It is very easy to see the time of the last shot fired and make a quick metal note, even if only to 1 decimal point. After the unload-show clear, when subsequently recording the score, the RO simply verifies that the time displayed is the same as the one remembered. If it isn't and it is higher then the timer has picked up an extra shot, or has been bumped. It is then that the RO steps through the timed shots until the one viewed in conjunction with the last shot is displayed.
Certainly we are not getting errors every time, far from it, but I personally believe it happens often enough and the biggest worry is that the ROs concerned haven't got a clue that there is an error.
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I know this question was intended for handgun but for interest's sake and in particular for MG/3G shooters please note that the shotgun rules are different. For SG you calibrate from the nearest and best position available to the competitor irrespective of where the competitor actually shot the target from. It may be worth remembering the difference.
SG is written this way to reflect that part of the skill of SG is knowing your choke/cartridge/pattern configuration and it is for the competitor to decide whether to take the risk of a more advantageous shot from a greater distance. The C of F requirement is merely that the target can be succesfully shot from somewhere in the permitted area available to the competitor.
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Please note that this is one of the sections that I Have suggested needs to be reworked in the 2008 USPSA SG (and rifle ?) rules for a mumber of reasons. If my concerns are taken up by JA & co then, as one of the possible changes, you should see metal targets in the configuration of paper targets available as scoring targets as well for SG, i.e. not just as no-shoots.
Please bear this variation in mind if it comes to pass.
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Must the cartridges be individual? Could I glue several together, and load them as one unit?
I've seen it done and there is no problem with it.
Several cartridges glued together and loaded as a unit??? Pictures?
In truth I don't know of anyone who has tried "several" but the first time I came across this was at the 2003 Europeans where members of the Swiss contingent glued pair of cartridges together to assist loading. I guess it will only help with certain techniques and with certain guns. The Benelli Nova is one that quickly comes to mind. I don't know how successful it is.
Sorry, no pictures but you can see in the other pictures above that setting up "pairs" of cartridges for loading is quite common. As are the breast plate contraptions you see, for holding the rounds together in pairs. It's not for me but some of the guys using this kit are getting reasonable results. None of the top guys use these, however.
Incidentally the concept of gluing the cartridges together was brought to me to consider from a rules perspective. Was it legal? The only possible consideration, without writing a specfic rule to bar the practice, was whether the glue could be considered a "loading device".
I was and am of the opinion that this does not constitute a loading device, nor do I see it as against any other rule or principle governing these divisions, and as such, as far as IPSC is concerned, I'm happy to allow the practice to continue in the Standard Divisions (and therefore in all divisions).
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I think it's pretty clear. You can use loops or clips that hold each shell. but not a dump pouch. Which leads me to a thought. Cowboy shotgun rigs have belts that hold two shells in each position to facilitate all the two at a time reloading. So am I led to believe a Cowboy belt isnt allowed ? I guess I was wrong maybe it isnt so clear after all.
Where does it say you can't use a pouch? Actually the rule names a pouch as a specfic option. It's no problem.
Why do you believe there is a problem with cowboy belts?
The bottom line is almost anything goes.
From the 2006 Europeans ........ Variations on a theme ...........
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Yeah, but ........... !
I already have. It's not a problem in the IPSC rules. Never has been. Open is open!
Actually I have been helping a bit back channel with the updating of the USPSA SG rules but I think you're stuck with the 10 round mag limit.
Having said that I KNOW the rules are still being worked on so if everyone was real quick and made enough noise ...... maybe, just maybe.
Likewise for Standard Division - start with 9 at the beep thereafter anything goes. It's MUCH cleaner.
They only listen to me on the boring stuff, but you guys might have a chance?
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Must the cartridges be individual? Could I glue several together, and load them as one unit?
I've seen it done and there is no problem with it.
I've already made a note to improve the wording of this rule (IPSC rules). Thanks for bringing it up.
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This merely emphasizes that "individual cartridges" are OK. It does not prevent attaching a tec loader or any other form of speed loader fro being attached to the gun.
You're good to go.
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I've just sent a brief email to Mike Voigt and John Amidon to let them know my fears.
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I've only just had a chance to have a decent look at the new USPSA SG Rules and quite frankly it's not looking good.
These rules need a lot more work before they should be released for use.
I urge you to take a detailed look and then contact your AD to request that the rules are discussed once more. Any further detailed discussions are probably more appropriate over on the USPSA Forum rather than here. If you fail to act then you will end up paying the price.
The Shotgun and Rifle rules need and deserve specialists and dedicated persons to look after them!
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The last 2 European Championship matches have both seen 21 stages shot over 3 days. Both considered 24 stages, i.e. 8 per day instead of 7 but opted for the safer bet.
ESC03 in Italy was just over 240 rounds and slightly over 50% was slug! In truth the amount of slug was over the top, IMO.
ESC06 in Greece was just over 300 rounds 15 stages of birdshot (233 rounds), 4 stages of slug (34 rounds) and 2 stages of buckshot (36 rounds - 9 ball). This, IMO, was a better balance but personally I might have been tempted to change another stage or two to buckshot.
I've pasted a link to the ESC06 website - CLICK HERE
I've also added below a late (but not the absolute final) copy of the ESC06 C of F and the ESC03 C of F.
ESC03 was an open and easy C of F with speed being the key element. ESC06 was VERY technical and need a good degree of accuracy as well as speed. Knowledge of how your gun patterns was a big help. At ESC06 some of no-shoots were very, very tight.
KURTM
Moved to the Moderator Forum:2010 Pan American Shotgun Championship
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
Posted
I'm looking to book my flights in the next day or so. I've seen some negative comments about transiting through Newark, with Philadelphia being recommended instead. Is it really any big deal?
However, I've also just found a good flight with US Airways that transits through Charlotte, NC. Any likely problems if I opt for this route? The timings and UK airport are much better for me.
Many thanks in advance for any advice/tips.