Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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All in favor of N/S Poppers having to fall to count say "AYE!"
All in fovor of scoring a penalty on a N/S Popper if there is a scrtach on the paint job, say :ow, that hurt, why'd you throw that rock at me?"
Humor mode off, but I think that there could be a point in all of this
Jim Norman
See, Jim! I said we had things we agreed on!
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Vince
I would support the change, it's already in the Shotgun rule book. I think we should stick with "Load and Make Ready" when appropriate because there is then no doubt that a shooter has been a command to "Load".
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Further to my post above about the SG rule I've thought some more about the USPSA rule changes.
My personal take on it is that the NROI Ruling started to fix half a problem but in the end has little relevance:
US NROI Ruling: "Any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" the interpretation of FULL OR PARTIAL DIAMETER, that the center of the pattern strikes anywhere on the penalty target.USPSA Shotgun 4.3.1.7 has regretably used the wrong language to deal with shotgun and both it and the NROI ruling ends up being ambiguous. However, there is a ignificant pointer to 9.4.3.
Shotgun Rule 9.4.3 is clear "Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score".
As I said above this is my personal interpretation. I've emailed John Amidon as I said I would, with a copy to Mike Voigt. I've had an acknowledgement and we now must let the cogs grind!
When/if I get some substantive reply I'll let you know.
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Rainman
Firstly a warm welcome to the forum.
I'm going to be there and indeed there will be a number of others from here as well. With most competitors staying in the same hotel it should be fairly easy to arrange a get together.
I arrive on Thursday 25 November and will be leaving on Sunday 5 Decmber.
I look forward to meeting you there.
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Excuse me, but it is my strong recollection that if you strike a N-S popper and leave a mark, you get the penalty regardless of whether it falls or not. (Alas, I cannot cite the relevant rule at the moment.)
Patrick
You are correct with regards to Handgun and Rifle but Shotgun has a different rule.
Actually there was a bit of a error and I think you'll find that the US Handgun rule 4.3.1.7 was accidentally pasted to the US shotgun rule. John Amidon has then tried to fix it with an interpretation. Please see below:
IPSC 4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Penalty metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other accidental reason, will be treated as range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1).
US 4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets designed to fall when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as range equipment failure. However, any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3.
US NROI Ruling: "Any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" the interpretation of FULL OR PARTIAL DIAMETER, that the center of the pattern strikes anywhere on the penalty target.
IPSC AND US 9.4.3 Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score and then will be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value of a maximum scoring hit.
Actually I don't think the ruling is altogether clear and I'll email John accordingly. I'll let you know what he says in due course. I suspect he may have looked up the handgun rule 9.4.3 when he wrote the interpretation rather than the shotgun rule.
The IPSC Shotgun rule is clear. If it doesn't fall it doesn't count.
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Paint the NS popper after each shooter if required.
Set them that same as a Hardcover, in other words, set them not to fall and just count the hits (up to two after 12-1-04)
Or set them to fall and score one NS only if the popper is down. Consider anything less than down the same as you'd consider a hit on the non-scoring border of a paper N/S. After all, if you have to actually knock steel down to score, shouldn't you also have to knock it down to get a penalty?
There, I've stated two opposing positions in on post. Lets see which way the wind blows on this and maybe make another new rule.
Jim
There are sometimes when I'm really glad that I specialise in IPSC shotgun!
The Shotgun rules (only) state that penalty targets must fall to count. There is no alternative to this. If they don't fall then no penalty, even if hit.
As a matter of course I ask ROs to repaint after any visible hit. I've known splashback off other targets to take out a penalty target. If there are no strike marks on the paint of the front of the target then the penalty target hasn't been hit in the true sense of the word but instead has fallen because of splashback or vibration. This nigh on eliminates disputes and is right and proper to protect competitors from wrong calls.
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Mine arrived in the UK yesterday (Thursday).
Green it certainly is. It's good job I don't need it for shotgun matches out in the woods and the fields!
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Maybe the shooter is rude and loud, maybe he hits on the opposite sex without stop, maybe he just pees against the berm as opposed to using the facilities, whatever.
No wonder I shoot alone so much.
Which one(s) apply?
I only reckon on one of them and I'm not really sure that makes me a bad person? Not really anyway!
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(Neil: I think we need to change the word "should" to "must"!?)
Vince
On the face of it I agree but I've got a niggling doubt that we debated this issue and settled on "should" for a reason.
I'll try to reseach it. However, otherwise it does seem to scream out doesn't it?
I've now checked and there is absolutely no change to this rule from the 14th Edition to the January 2004 Edition so I must have been thinking of something else.
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In the UK the RM reports any DQs to our NROI as part of his post match report and as I stated earlier we take action after 2 DQs in 12 months.
Setting the debate of whether to do it or not aside for a moment it should be feasible for WinMSS and EZWin to auto generate a report any DQs as a separate item for auto forwarding to an email address to suit, e.g, the Regional NROI. It is then perfectly possible to maintain and report on the data to set criteria. It could be a feature that is turned on from Region to Region to suit?
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(Neil: I think we need to change the word "should" to "must"!?)
Vince
On the face of it I agree but I've got a niggling doubt that we debated this issue and settled on "should" for a reason.
I'll try to reseach it. However, otherwise it does seem to scream out doesn't it?
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Do you think there would be any justification for timers with floating decimal points?
Is this the stage to send any "floating" range crew to?
The truth of the matter is that in the summer the stream is normally just a trickle of just an inch or two of water. It makes a great natural setting for a stage and the steeply rising banks on either side provide an excellent safety backstop. However, the week before the match we suffered a week of monsoon proportion rain and you can see the result.
Now to me it's a competitive edge. I've been there often before and the more it freaks out the others the more I smile and embrace the conditions.
Besides, skin is waterproof!
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I remember shooting that stage - I was new to the game then and I did wonder what I was letting myself in for ! I took the wet route as well and it was fun, that drop over the log was very deep if I recall !!
So you were still wet behind the ears as it were?
I am shooting Sunday so we may not hook up, I will pick up your prize for you !
I think the weather forecast is too dry to favour my style of shooting!
But thanks for the offer. -
Luca
Perhaps you can see now why the conditions for the ESC match last summer were a culture shock for the Brits. I'd been telling them for years it was the same as the UK everywhere else as well.
The targets that had to be shot prone were a real b*tch!
Cooper Tunnels could be tricky as well! Happy days! Think of the fun you can have with the briefing:
"On the start signal follow the marked river........."
or
"The permitted safety angles are 90 degrees either side of the raging torrent"
or
??
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A couple more:
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Dont you just love Shield in the winter !!
Will you boys be playing at Harlow this weekend - last one of the season and time to really go for it !!
Mike
That was the summer about 3 or 4 years back.
In the winter the water gets deep. Not like the trickle in the picture.
I should add that this was the quick route but there was a dry route along the bank, only it was definitely slower.
I'm shooting the Harlow match on Saturday.
Does anyone think we need to change the rules from "walk through" to "walk or swim through"?
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FAILED TEST
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looks like the MS match this past weekend.
do you get extra points for the most leeches?
lynn
No leeches over here, thankfully, but resetting the plates has its moments!
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Hi,
Here in NL a shooter gets banned from participation in IPSC matches after 3 (?) DQ's in a year, until he (or she) has passed the basic training & test again.
But that does not exclude this shooter from participating in dynamic shooting at his/her own local range, for instance practice sessions held NOT under IPSC sanctioning.
Arvid
We operate a very similar procedure in the UK except that it's 2 strikes in any 12 month period and you have to re-rest.
The effect of having to book a re-test creates a suspension period.
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During the set up process it's important to check the position of the targets for shootability!
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SiG Lady
Nice!
This is building into a really good collection. More please, folks, they're all good.
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Luca, Nice picture.
Sometimes you just have to be in the right place at the right time!
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Happy birthday Brian.
Have a good one (or two).
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In the UK we have always used red to designate penalty targets. I guess the logic has been red is the stop sign colour and red for danger. Regardless of the reason every club uses adopts red in this way which makes life very easy.
Please note that there are a couple of variances in the SG & R rules. In 4.1.2.1 we permit white targets for both disciplines. In 4.1.2.2, for SG only, we permit metal targets to be left unpainted providing they are left unpainted for all. This is so that ROs don't end up as painting contractors instead of their real job!
SG & Rifle 4.1.2.1 The scoring area of scoring paper targets must be of a typical cardboard color or white.
SG Only 4.1.2.2 The entire front of scoring metal targets may either be painted a single color, preferably white, or may be unpainted.
No Shoot Poppers
in Stage Comments or Questions
Posted
Metal penalty targets remaining upright when hit isn't new. It was there in the 14th edition with different wording but the same thing.
The old IPSC rule left it to the match organizers decision as to whether it stayed upright or fell. The US rule changed to this "must stay upright".
The option continues in the 2004 IPSC rules, i.e. it can be declared as must fall to count, sadly (IMHO) this aspect has been changed in the US version.