kellyn
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Posts posted by kellyn
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I typically would not dial especially if using a 300 y zero if shooting out to 400 yards which is a hold over of about 13 inches (about 3 MOA) with your load. If presented with a shot at 500 I would consider dialing the sight but I would try to make it the 1st or last shot on my array.
Your wind value which is good for 300 would not be good for 500. My program shows 10 in (3.2 MOA) of wind drift at 300 and 30.6 in (5.9 MOA) of wind drift at 500 with your load. Almost twice the value.. If you have a good idea of the windage, I would dial windage compatible for the majority of presented targets and then use Kentucky windage for the rest. I would NOT dial windage between shots, it simply takes too long. But keep an eye out for wind shifts.
The targets that you are shooting at sound pretty big so you can get away with some slop.
A lot of this depends on the stage description, if you simply had to shoot targets from 100, 200, 300, 400 and then 500, I would consider dialing for the last 2 but if you have to reengage targets in different orders from different positions, dialing and keeping track of where your sight is becomes pretty difficult.
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Yes it was, I hope to see popup targets on every stage that I ever shoot again.
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The crew at Rio did a fantastic job of putting on the 1st major 3 gun of the year. The match was traditional SMM3G, the drag race of 3 gun. I thought the stages presented a good balance of skill tests, albiet a bit pistol light.
Stage 10 was one of the most technical shotgun stages that I have ever faced. Stage 9 presented the shooter with a host of 40 to 50 yard rifle offhand shots. Stage 2 was a true barn burner in the finest SMM3G tradition. Stage 5 was a great stage with 330 yard rifle shots, slugs out to 70, followed by a pistol hose fest. Stage 1's moving platform was a challenging prop to manage. Stage 7 was cool with the shield, the host of hostage shooting probelms and the light requirement . And it was nice to see a buckshot stage.
What didn't I like?
First, the match presented the shooter with a few 9+ target shotgun arrays, meaning that a guy with a traditional 8+1 tactical shotgun was going to get stuck with standing reloads whereas those with the big magazines on their tac shotguns did not. This is a huge deal on 20-30 second stages. It must cost the 8+1 shooter nearly 10 match points for every standing reload. I think that shotgun stages should limit the target arrays to no more than 8 targets otherwise the 8+1 shotgun is obsolete.
Second, Richard and I will have to agree to disagree about the utility of military popup targets in the match context. But I know that I am not alone in my views.
Finally, it's Rio Salado! We should have more relevant pistol shooting at SMM3G.
But those are quibbles, thanks for all the hard work. That was a great way to start 2012!
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Sometimes I do fix people's spelling, usually Kurt Miller's, sometimes my own.
Since we are on BrianEnos.com not SuperNinjaTactical.com, I would steer new shooters looking to buy ARs towards ARs which are geared towards 3 gun and practical rifle competition. There are a whole host of good ones being produced now. That Stag 3G looks like a good rifle out of the box for both the new and the experienced shooter. Same with the Loki and Firebird. Lots of good choices.
But you can't beat a JP.
GunGoddess, if weight is a concern, JP makes a JP15 with light contour barrel. It is only $4-500 more than the Daniel Defense V7 that you are contemplating but it will have a better handguard, a comp, and a better trigger so it is really a better deal in the end.
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If I was a sponsored top shooter (will never happen) I would want to be squaded with as many different people as possible. Part of their job is to show what great guys they are and what a great product they are representing. Spread them out between squads would be better for them and for us.
Bill
I, for one, like computer sign up and payment as opposed to snail mail.
Matches need to have a certain set number of sponsor slots however OR there will be little or no sponsorship.
As for squadding, I like to shoot with my amigos, who I oftentimes only get to see at matches BUT I am a firm believer in divisional supersquads, especially in 3 gun. The top shooters in each division should shoot the match in roughly the same environmental conditions if at all possible. For example at Camp Perry, they squad all the Masters and High Masters on the same relay so they are shooting in the same conditions. If you don't do this, people start questioning whoever won on the internet.
I like the idea of spreading top shooters around in theory but not so much in practice due to this reason.
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I strongly recommend buying a low powered variable scope (1-4Xish) and shooting Tac Optics. It will be tough to get a good system for $200 though. But I'm sure you can give it a go with a sight like the aformentioned Weaver 1-3X, Colts' cheap 3-9X, Redfield's 2-7X, Simmons 1.5-5X, or Leupold's 1.5-4X Mark AR scope. These are pretty affordable scopes and will get you up and running.
Your Sportical is going to be very challenging to use with iron sights on targets of any difficulty. The wide stock front sight post combined with short sight radius is simply going to kill you. If the matches that you are planning to shoot are inside 100 yards give it a go with the irons but if you are going to be shooting 150-300 yard shots, I would not even waste your time and ammo (which costs $$ too). Some things are false economy, I think struggling with an inadequate sighting system falls into this category.
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The Winchester Practical 1300 was the best heavy metal shotgun ever. We should make Winchester produce them again. I have to borrow Angus Hobdell's every time I shoot heavy metal.
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+2
Unless you are competing against me. Then I want you to shoot a piston driven SBR with a 11.5 inch barrel.
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And yours works!!
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Remember that is only good for 5X (the top end of magnification) as it is a second focal plane optic.
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While Kurt "Mr. Weakhand" Miller converted me to the weakhand style (which is not really weakhand for me as I'm left handed but shoot right handed), I can't say that you need to do it to win. Daniel H usually loads stronghand off the caddies.
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The Pris is a great little optic for Limited. Did you get the DCD reticle or the Circle-Plex? If you got the DCD you have the ticket, if not, it’s not bad inside 200 yards on larger targets but the dot is way too big for long shots. Quite a few of us in the Limited class used these last season very successfully. The fact that you have an etched reticle gives you a more crisp edge to use for reference on long shots. The DCD has an approximately 3 MOA center dot, it sound big but you wouldn't really want it any smaller or you wouldn't find it. There is a big difference between an etched dot and a reflex dot. The 3 MOA reference gives you a lot of information out at range so long shorts are very doable. The parallax is less touchy than reflex dots as well at long range and the dials are repeatable. This means you can get your ballistics figured out and reliably adjust your zero as needed. I showed up to one match this year with a 325 zero and after looking at the stages spun it down the prescribed number if clicks for a 200 zero and it was right on.
In short, it is a great optic for our game, as long as you have the right reticle.
Hope that helps,
James
+ 1.
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I can't think of a better choice for this application than the JP that you are looking at. JP wants to get deeper into this market and is producing tactical guns as good as anyones and better than most. And yes, there are a lot of other good options out there but in my experience none is better.
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If I finish 2 of 4 iron shooters, ho hum.
Depends on which 4 fishes are in that pond!
If you beat Kurt, James, Kelly, West, Scott, Kelley (Patrick) and there are others, that sir is no "ho hum". Look at what these guys do in other classes, namely TO when they are forced to shoot that division with minimal train up time. I might also say this, go look at some of those matches and take the raw scores of the TI winner and drop it into TS. In most cases, their scores are still top 5 (at least top 10) even though they were using 1x or irons. There are several overall stage wins in the match by these guys as well. Yep, smaller pond, but the fish are just as big.
Also, the respect these guys show each other is pretty amazing. Being in a smaller pond and knowing the actual three or four guys they are chasing (or are chasing them) brings about a dynamic that does not occur in in TS. In fact I might be wrong (I only shoot TS) but I think some of the appeal of the smaller divisions is this direct competition dynamic.
At our local matches, Limited is in 2nd place for number of participants behind TO. We are getting some LE and Mil with their Eotechs, Aimpoints and such. It appears to be an equal split between irons and 1x optics in that class. However, some of the newbies have 1x optics on the way since James stomps all the local competition with a Pris!
Want to really grow Limited? Make it a special category in TS and pay out cash to 5th place with irons or 1x in addition to the prize table and set the match up with all easy to see 4 MOA targets. Sorry, bad idea!
I don't know what you're talking about, I hate all those guys, especially James.
There is a positive dynamic in the TI pond. Is it better than TO, Open or HM? I don't know. But it is funny, in TI it seemed like Kurt, James and I were all rooting for each other in the 3GN point series. While I would have obviously liked to have won, I'm kinda glad a guy shooting irons sights did actually win.
From a sponsor perspective, it does open the door for Eotech, Aimpoint, Vortex and Leupold etc. to field shooters with their 1X optics which are otherwise not as competitive in TO.
From a personal persepctive, 3GN did pull me toward TI once 1Xs were allowed as I could compete with a Leupold Prismatic otherwise as a Team Leupold guy, I would have stayed in TO. 3GN will obviously drive the boat on a lot of shooters' choices depending on what they do. There are obviously pros and cons to that.
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I can speak to the breakdown as to the winners.
Kurt Miller walked away with $5K from Hornady winning the 3 Gun Nation Tactical Iron point series. He shot irons (extended sight radius/skinny post on a JP rifle with 20 in barrel). Kurt won Rocky Mountain 3 Gun, Texas State Multigun, Fort Benning, USPSA Nationals, CMMG and Ozark 2010. He was 2nd at Superstition Mountain (after bending his front sight).
Next up was James Casonova who won FNHUSA and Ozark 2011. He was also 2nd at Blue Ridge, USPSA Nationals, Rocky Mtn. 3 Gun, and MGM. He shoots a Leupold Prismatic with DCD.
Then there is me, who won Superstition and Blue Ridge and was 2nd at FNHUSA also with a Prismatic and DCD.
Travis Gibson won MGM but I don't know the sighting system.
SO on the basis of that, I would say that irons pose no disadvantage to the Tactical Limited shooter (as long as his name is Kurt Miller!) winning at least 6 of the aforementioned 11 matches. Four were won with the Pris.
As to the entire breakdown of division, I have no idea. I do know that this division has increased participation at the local level in Phoenix.
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The SPR reticle sucks. The CMR-2 kicks ass.
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+1 on that!
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Like a Led, I mean Lead, Zeppelin.
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I would run a bipod in Open as well depending on the stage. If they were required to be on for the whole match, I MIGHT change my mind.
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Safety, Safety, Safety.
If the shooter's guns aren't zero'ed- no big deal. If they don't know how to clear a malfunction, I'll help them with it. If the muzzle is pointing anywhere other than down range or they are not following trigger discipline- we have a problem.
I think it helps when dealing w/ new shooters to only focus on the requirements- muzzle, finger, load and make ready, unload and show clear. If you start trying to go over too much, their eyes become glassy and they start shaking uncontrollably. Make sure they can finish their first match w/out DQing and they'll be back.
YES!
At Rio Salado we give a 20 minute newbie class before every one of our monthly matches.
We also recently held an "Introduction to 3-Gun" clinic that went pretty well. It took 4 hours in all; 2 hours in the classroom, followed by 2 hours on the range running through a 3-gun stage. This lets the newbies get familiar with the safety rules, scoring and the real reliability of their equipment in a relatively benign environment. You can download the slides we used here.
YES, which we are doing late February here in Colorado, using what they prepared. I've not decided yet if I am going to impersonate Richard or Kelley yet, but I have both face cut-outs ready.
I'd go with the Richard mask, myself.
I agree with the safety, safety, safety comments.
That being said, you also want them to have some success so a zeroed rifle is a kinda must have accessory.
New (and not so new) shooters seem to struggle with 3 things the most:
1) Safety: Moving with their fingers on triggers, 180 violations (which can be easy with the long guns too), etc.
2) Equipment manipulation: shotgun loading, gun transitions, loading/unloading process
3) Thinking their 50 yard rifle zero makes them ready for a real 3 gun rifle stage (if they've bothered to zero at all!)
I hope our 3 gun class at Rio was a success. That class really showed me how difficult 3 gun really is as there are so many things to try an master.
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I'm against bipods being allowed in Tactical simply so that we can keep some distictions between an Open rifle and a Tactical rifle, which are very close in performance anyway.
IF we allowed them, I think they should have to remain on the rifle for the entire match.
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If you want to force mag changes have a standards stage. (Gasp!!!)
Given that 30 plus round magazines are easily and readily available, I'm mildly against any sort of cap on mag limit in Tac or Tac Limited/1X/Iron Sight/Limited division. Stage design will easily nullify any advantage that high cap mags have anyway.
Making 20 rounds the limit to prevent monopodding will simply make me build up the bottom of the 20 rd magazines.
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Hey Isto, you should give me the 1st plate silver plate from the 2009 European Rifle Championships because I had to shoot one of the LR stages with 5.63 mph more wind than you did. Had it not been for that I would have had 9 more match points crushing your score. Ergo, I should have been Euro Rifle Champion. Ergo, the plate is MINE!
Email me and I will send you a shipping address for MY silver plate.
Why not a Benelli M4?
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted · Edited by kellyn
We always win. Eventually. Bwhahaha ...... Bwahahahahahaha ....... Bwhahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!!!!