New to handguns, but not to shooting sports

[Bluehorn]

My daughters and I are avid shotgun sport enthusiasts, but in the past couple of months I have really developed a passion for shooting handguns and hope to start competing soon.  
 

In my quest to learn to handgun practical shooting I really gravitated to a few people on the internet like Scott Jedlinski, Ben Stoeger and others.  listening to those guys helped me realize that a lot of what I used in shotgun sports could be incorporated to a handgun with a red dot.
 

I was wondering what you all think of a technique that I have come up with to find the dot on my target instantly almost every time. I have devoured everything on the internet from the Modern Samurai Project and a few others regarding shooting pistols with red dots. The Mordern Samurai project is very big on proprioception, and that is the way you shoot shotguns. While I am new to hand guns, I have been shooting shotguns since I was 9, and my daughters shot competitively for years. Both did well in the Texas State Championships and won events, and one of them actually tied for HOA. In shotgun sports like trap, skeet and sporting clays, new shooters are often taught to use the index finger of their support hand like a pointer to point at the target rather than focusing on the front sight and target at the same time. In fact, when I taught my daughters to shoot, I took the bead off the front.  The reason for this is that when you shift your focus from the target to the bead, you will end up shooting behind the moving clay target every time.

I have taken this technique, and incorporated it with my draw and initially finding the dot. What I do is that I use the wave technique taught by the Modern Samurai Project and then use the thumb of my support hand to point at the target. When I do this, the dot almost always appears in the middle of my window with the dot on or near the spot I am aiming at.

I am curious what more experienced shooters think of this technique for quickly acquiring the dot on target.

[CC3D]

Welcome! Not a pro by any means, so take this with a grain of salt. What your referring to people here usually call your "index". It's arguably one of the most important things to develop for practical shooting. Basic concept is being able to look to a point on any target, and when you bring your gun up or transition to that point, your dot/ sights will be lined up right where your eyes are looking. This sounds like what you're referring to, although I may have misinterpreted. You hit on an important point though, aiming does not exclusively require use of the eyes, proprioception is very important. Look into predictive vs. reactive shooting and index if you want to hear more educated/ in depth discussion on these ideas. 

 

Welcome and best of luck on your journey!

[Bluehorn]

Thanks CC3D!  It is good to here that I am on the right track.  That really cool to hear about indexing.  I would definitely like to read more about those techniques.

 

Also, what is predictive and reactive shooting?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

17 minutes ago, Bluehorn said:

Thanks CC3D!  It is good to here that I am on the right track.  That really cool to hear about indexing.  I would definitely like to read more about those techniques.

 

Also, what is predictive and reactive shooting?

 

I was going to mention the concept of index, but I see that's already covered.

 

Reactive shooting: your brain reacts by triggering the shot when it detects an appropriate sight/target relationship

 

Predictive shooting: your brain triggers the shot before the appropriate sight/target relationship is detected based on the pattern and timing of sight movement against the target.

[Bluehorn]

6 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I was going to mention the concept of index, but I see that's already covered.

 

Reactive shooting: your brain reacts by triggering the shot when it detects an appropriate sight/target relationship

 

Predictive shooting: your brain triggers the shot before the appropriate sight/target relationship is detected based on the pattern and timing of sight movement against the target.

Are there any good YouTube videos or authors that talk about reactive and predictive.  I would also like to dig more into indexing.  All three sound a lot like the the types of training that make for the best shooters in shotgun sports

[Johnny_Chimpo]

57 minutes ago, Bluehorn said:

Are there any good YouTube videos or authors that talk about reactive and predictive.  I would also like to dig more into indexing.  All three sound a lot like the the types of training that make for the best shooters in shotgun sports

 

I don't know that I ever found a useful video on how to develop an index.  It needs a high level of attention to proprioception and visual feed back as well as a lot of repetitions to build an good index.  I still work on it on every dry and live fire session.

 

 

[Bluehorn]

25 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I don't know that I ever found a useful video on how to develop an index.  It needs a high level of attention to proprioception and visual feed back as well as a lot of repetitions to build an good index.  I still work on it on every dry and live fire session.

 

 

Thanks.  Drawing and firing with the laser to a Mantis Laser Academy target daily has really helped me develop my index, I just didn’t know what I was doing.  Having spent thirty years or so doing it with a shotgun I am sure helped a lot as well.  Using the thumb as a pointer just came natural for me.  When I shot with iron sights I always shot with both eyes open and a hard target focus.  Having a blurry front sight felt normal to me since that is what I had always done with a shotgun.  When I put on a red dot it felt like cheating.

 

[Faith02]

Welcome to the forum !

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, Bluehorn said:

Drawing and firing with the laser to a Mantis Laser Academy target daily has really helped me develop my index

 

I would suggest not using that laser any more and start using the sights (whatever kind you have) exclusively to call your shots.

 

Using anything else besides the sights for knowing where the shots went is very likely to train you to target gaze and target gazing will severely slow your transitions and make up shots.

 

I came to practical pistol from the same background as you did

[Bluehorn]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I would suggest not using that laser any more and start using the sights (whatever kind you have) exclusively to call your shots.

 

Using anything else besides the sights for knowing where the shots went is very likely to train you to target gaze and target gazing will severely slow your transitions and make up shots.

 

I came to practical pistol from the same background as you did

I am using a laser bullet.  It only flashes for a second, but the Mantis Laser Academy App logs the shot onto the target so you get to see where you are hitting.  It’s a really neat set up that allows you to take dry fire training to a new level.  It’s like going to the gun range.  The only draw back is that you have to rack the slide after every shot and there is no recoil.

[CC3D]

Someone already covered predictive vs reactive shooting so I won't comment much more on that. I see it really as a mindset, are you reacting to your sights being on target, saying "okay, we're lined up, fire the shot"? That's going to be slow and inefficient. Relying on not just sights but index and proprioception, and using those things in conjunction with your sights to call shots is predictive shooting. Ben Stoeger and Joel Park's new book "practical shooting training" covers this stuff really well. I'd recommend it. 

 

As far as the laser thing, as others have said, I wouldn't use it. It's going to train you to look at your target for the information needed to call your shot. This information should come from the sights, not the hole on the target. 

 

Either way, I personally find a lot of the dry fire accessories gimmicky. If they make you want to train more that's great, but sometimes that money is better spent on ammo than the latest dry fire gizmo. A timer is a good thing to spend money on as well and can be used in dry and live fire.

[Bluehorn]

3 hours ago, CC3D said:

Someone already covered predictive vs reactive shooting so I won't comment much more on that. I see it really as a mindset, are you reacting to your sights being on target, saying "okay, we're lined up, fire the shot"? That's going to be slow and inefficient. Relying on not just sights but index and proprioception, and using those things in conjunction with your sights to call shots is predictive shooting. Ben Stoeger and Joel Park's new book "practical shooting training" covers this stuff really well. I'd recommend it. 

 

As far as the laser thing, as others have said, I wouldn't use it. It's going to train you to look at your target for the information needed to call your shot. This information should come from the sights, not the hole on the target. 

 

Either way, I personally find a lot of the dry fire accessories gimmicky. If they make you want to train more that's great, but sometimes that money is better spent on ammo than the latest dry fire gizmo. A timer is a good thing to spend money on as well and can be used in dry and live fire.

The laser isn’t on so you don’t see it but for a split second after you file it.  The laser bullet from Mantis is only $40 and the app is free and the targets are free to download and print out 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Bluehorn said:

The laser isn’t on so you don’t see it but for a split second after you file it.  The laser bullet from Mantis is only $40 and the app is free and the targets are free to download and print out 

 

Working on index from the draw is fine, but there is much more to dry fire than draws and trigger manipulation.

 

If I were you I would work all of these areas on a rotational basis through the week, and even within a dry fire training session:

1. Transitions between targets
2. Entering a position ready to shoot (gun up, sights where the target is going to appear).  This involves movement from A to B
3. Leaving a position while still shooting at a target.  Same as 2 in reverse.
4. Engaging targets on the move
5. Reloading the gun
6. The draw

The order in which I listed them isn't random.  They are in the order that you can gain the most benefit from when shooting a stage.  Or said another way, when done incorrectly they cost you from the most to the least time.  Free advice, worth what you pay for it.

 

If you haven't done it, buy one of the dry fire training books from Ben Stoeger and put what it says into practice.

[Bluehorn]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Working on index from the draw is fine, but there is much more to dry fire than draws and trigger manipulation.

 

If I were you I would work all of these areas on a rotational basis through the week, and even within a dry fire training session:

1. Transitions between targets
2. Entering a position ready to shoot (gun up, sights where the target is going to appear).  This involves movement from A to B
3. Leaving a position while still shooting at a target.  Same as 2 in reverse.
4. Engaging targets on the move
5. Reloading the gun
6. The draw

The order in which I listed them isn't random.  They are in the order that you can gain the most benefit from when shooting a stage.  Or said another way, when done incorrectly they cost you from the most to the least time.  Free advice, worth what you pay for it.

 

If you haven't done it, buy one of the dry fire training books from Ben Stoeger and put what it says into practice.

Thanks for the help.  This is some really good stuff.  
 

what discipline would you recommend for a beginner?  USPSA or IDPA?  Also, what is minor v major and does that apply to both uSPSA and IDPA?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 minutes ago, Bluehorn said:

what discipline would you recommend for a beginner?  USPSA or IDPA?   Also, what is minor v major and does that apply to both uSPSA and IDPA?

 

USPSA without a doubt.  USPSA will test your skill much more severely, which will make you grow much faster if you take the challenge.

 

Power factor exists in both sports.  It's the multiple of your ammo's bullet weight and muzzle velocity divided by 1000. 

 

In IDPA it serves nothing more than to have a certain minimum level of recoil the shooter must deal with.  Each IDPA division has its its own minimum power factor and they are not all the same. 

 

Power factor in USPSA has the same purpose: to provide a minimum amount of recoil that has to be dealt with.  That power factor is known in USPSA as minor power factor and it is 125.  It applies to all divisions and if your ammo is found to be below 125 PF, your match score will be 0.  But in some divisions (open, limited, revolver, and single stack) power factor also provides a scoring advantage if yours goes above the threshold for major power factor (165).  Major power factor doesn't exist in production, carry optics, or pistol-caliber carbine divisions.  In them everyone is scored the same regardless of PF as long as it meets the minimum.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

I would say don't worry about power factor now.

 

Take a look at the handguns you and your kids plan to compete with and find a division where they fit.

 

If you want a recommendation for which division to start in USPSA, just post here the kinds of pistols you have and the modifications (if any) that you've done to them.

[CC3D]

USPSA by personal preference but if you're very new to pistol shooting the format of steel challenge is likely the most beginner friendly. Major v Minor is referring to power factor. They are two different point systems for the same target. In USPSA, the scoring system for minor is A = 5, C= 3, D=1. For Major, is A = 5, C= 4, D = 2. Major rewards "more recoil" with more points for your non alpha hits. This changes your aiming scheme and acceptable sight picture a bit. Minor shooters are punished more by non alpha hits compared to major shooters. Theres a lot more to be said on this but I am trying to be concise. 

 

Power factor is determined by multiplying bullet weight by bullet velocity and dividing by 1000. Cut off for minor is 125, for major is 165. Different divisions have different rules for major and minor. Some divisions are "minor only", meaning no matter what you shoot you are scored minor. Other divisions like limited have a minimum caliber for major, like .40 SW, which is why .40 is still popular(ish) in USPSA. Open allows major to be achieved with 9mm caliber bullets. 

 

I don't think IDPA has major scoring, but they definitely have a minimum power factor for ammo so people cant shoot bunny fart loads. Could be wrong on that. 

 

I hope that helps sorry for the word vomit

 

Edit: several people responded at the same time sorry

Edited February 24, 2022 by CC3D
addendum

[CC3D]

5 hours ago, Bluehorn said:

The laser isn’t on so you don’t see it but for a split second after you file it.  The laser bullet from Mantis is only $40 and the app is free and the targets are free to download and print out 

It's difficult to explain why the laser could hurt in the long run. That split second of red showing up on the target is programming your brain to get information about your shot placement from the target, not the sights. You want that information to come from your sights.

 

Regardless, for now if you enjoy using the laser and it helps you train I don't think anyone will condemn you for it. Just keep in mind when you get to the point where "shot calling" is something you want to start working on, the laser won't help for that. 

 

Check out "That shooting show" by Steve Anderson. Great podcast with lots of USPSA shooting philosophy there. He explains shot calling (and anything else discussed in this thread) better than any of us can. I personally think his podcast is the best "instructional" one out there. He has a bunch of podcasts geared towards training tips for new USPSA shooters, I'd start with one of them when you have 20 mins to spare. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, Bluehorn said:

The laser isn’t on so you don’t see it but for a split second after you file it.

 

That's the most important split second in shot calling and your attention is not where it should be.

 

I get it, it's fun and cool, but too much use will hurt your performance.  Bank on it.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Bluehorn]

4 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I would say don't worry about power factor now.

 

Take a look at the handguns you and your kids plan to compete with and find a division where they fit.

 

If you want a recommendation for which division to start in USPSA, just post here the kinds of pistols you have and the modifications (if any) that you've done to them.

I have a Glock 19.5 with an Overwatch Precision PolyDat trigger shoe and a green dot.  I also have talon grips

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 minutes ago, Bluehorn said:

I have a Glock 19.5 with an Overwatch Precision PolyDat trigger shoe and a green dot.  I also have talon grips

 

Green dot?  Is that green fiber optic front sight or a reflex sight with a green reticle?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo
spelling

[Bluehorn]

4 hours ago, CC3D said:

USPSA by personal preference but if you're very new to pistol shooting the format of steel challenge is likely the most beginner friendly. Major v Minor is referring to power factor. They are two different point systems for the same target. In USPSA, the scoring system for minor is A = 5, C= 3, D=1. For Major, is A = 5, C= 4, D = 2. Major rewards "more recoil" with more points for your non alpha hits. This changes your aiming scheme and acceptable sight picture a bit. Minor shooters are punished more by non alpha hits compared to major shooters. Theres a lot more to be said on this but I am trying to be concise. 

 

Power factor is determined by multiplying bullet weight by bullet velocity and dividing by 1000. Cut off for minor is 125, for major is 165. Different divisions have different rules for major and minor. Some divisions are "minor only", meaning no matter what you shoot you are scored minor. Other divisions like limited have a minimum caliber for major, like .40 SW, which is why .40 is still popular(ish) in USPSA. Open allows major to be achieved with 9mm caliber bullets. 

 

I don't think IDPA has major scoring, but they definitely have a minimum power factor for ammo so people cant shoot bunny fart loads. Could be wrong on that. 

 

I hope that helps sorry for the word vomit

 

Edit: several people responded at the same time sorry

I have been leaning toward starting with steel challenge.  It seems like it is less complicated, but then again I know very little about the differences between the disciplines.

[Bluehorn]

4 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Green dot?  Is that green fiber optic front sight or a reflex sight with a green reticle?

Same as a red dot reflex sight, but green.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 hours ago, Bluehorn said:

Same as a red dot reflex sight, but green.

 

Carry Optics division is what you seek

[Bluehorn]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Carry Optics division is what you seek

Is that one of the hardest divisions?