mhs
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Posts posted by mhs
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You don't need to establish being in a box, you just need to not be out of it. This makes it all clear, right?I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal?Yes. You do not need to land in "B" for the shots to be legal, as long as you are not touching the ground or any other object outside of box B.
And, just for clarity, shooting while leaping is, I suspect, pretty rare, but shooting while moving isn't, and there are times when you are entering a designated shooting area and both feet could be off the ground.
Here's the complete rule:
10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching
the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a
Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an
object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or
Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.
However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any
target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one
procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while
faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots
while faulting.
There is no rule in the book about what constitutes being "in" a box, only what constitutes being out of a box (or faulting a line). A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside.
Hope this helps.
Troy
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In production, my normal practice had been to have a mag with 11 rounds in my front pocket. I changed that to putting the 11-round mag in my back pocket. On empty gun starts I've been taking one round out of the 11-round mag, and putting it in my front pocket. Now that I've really looked at the rules, I guess I'll leave the loose round in my shooting bag. I'd be shocked to be called on a loose round in my front pocket, but it does seem illegal.
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...Also what are your combined thoughts on the matter of carrying loose rounds about the range?
Thanks!
Jerry
5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise
in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed
loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the
competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless
specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may
also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel
pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the
location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of
Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).
Gotta be on your belt. I'm not clear what the penalty would be for doing this during the COF. It seems very extreme, but it looks like it might be a bump to open or even shoot for no score.
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Sometimes Range Officers will conduct equipment check. From right there they'll give you a warning if your equipment is not applicable to your division...and writes a warning on your scorecard...if not, they'll just bump you to open... then the hassle of arbitration comes in.... Buy yourself a cheap barney mag would be the best thing....
How can you arb this? If you've already shot a stage, I don't see a way.
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Aztec,
nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....
Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....
Which rule supports your interpretation?
A few:
5.5.1 Magazines and speed loading devices must comply with the provisions of the relevant Division.6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match,the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.
6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on these matters is final.
Appendix D1, Item 8: Maximum magazine length 6.742” (171.25mm)That lays it out pretty cleanly.....
What I'm not seeing is a rule that says that you can only be bumped to open if your preceeding stages have been compliant with it. 6.2.5.1 and 6.2.5.2 are the only rules you quoted specifically concerning being bumped, and they don't seem to impose any such restriction.
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I think it's a bump to open, if available:
6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other
requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the
competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise
the competitor will shoot the match for no score.
After the bump the competitor would need to comply with open equipment rules.
Hmmm.. that's an interesting question I pondered. If you've already used the equipment, does it mean you have no score, because said used equipment doesn't meet any divisional requirements - or do you have a chance to change it when you get bumped.
We already had that discussion, when we talked about altering your rig - as well as adding a cmore to your production gun. No need to rehash thread, but I agree. Get bumped because equipment is illegal, get a chance to put that 33rd mag in the bag. Shooting in open is already a disadvantage enough - shooting for no score with division legal remedies available would be over kill.
Aztec,
nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....
Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....
Which rule supports your interpretation?
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Found it -- 5.5.1. Then appendix Dx will give you the limitation (say 10) after the start signal. Always learning - guess I can't use my Glock 33rnd magazine to barney for production
Good job! I suspect the Glock may not fit in the box with the 33 round magazine, just like the OP's SS gun will not fit in the box with a 10 round magazine :-)
I don't think the 33 round mags fit the 170+ mag gage, so instead of going to open, you are now shooting for no score. Oops.
Clarifying wides post a little - because I had to look it up - the relevant part of 6.2.5
6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score
I think it's a bump to open, if available:
6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other
requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the
competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise
the competitor will shoot the match for no score.
After the bump the competitor would need to comply with open equipment rules.
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Had a shooter last year at the Indiana SS/Prod match that was using a hi cap Glock with a base pad on it as a barney and putting in his pocket, not a problem.
But after a staged was cleared after ULSC, somehow the mag was out there on the course of fire.....He won open
Why didn't he get bumped to open for just having it with him when the COF began?
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Please explain this to me!
If I am the shooter and someone pastes the target before it is scored I get a re-shoot, correct?
If I am the shooter and I shoot a popper,it does not go down. I call for a calibration challenge but someone touchs it before the challenge and it falls, I lose the challenge.Correct?
I don't see the reasoning here.
I think that anyone who screws up the scoring of a target should get a procedural.
If you are in love with your your buddy enuff to cheat, then take one for him!
What is the difference between me running out and pasting a target you had a miss on to get you a reshoot compared to me running out and bumpimg a piece of steel and voiding the challenge??
This came up at a RO class recently, I didn't like the answer I got so I'm wondering if I am out in left field or not.
Mildot
If someone pastes a target, it must have had a hole to paste. The assumption is that there was a hole, you were entitled to whatever that hole scored, you were denied that, you get a reshoot.
If a popper is standing the assumption is that you didn't hit it, or didn't hit it well. If someone screws up the calibration, the assumption is that you probably wouldn't have gotten anything anyway.
Or so it seems to me.
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Any RO that would bump you to open for loading "one" round (and I mean the mag is now empty)from any mag and sticking it in your front pocket is a horses ass.
You gain no competitive advantage from having it there. Period!
What would you gain from re-inserting it? Nothing.
If it is of no advantage does it make a difference whether you drop it on the ground or stick it up ur butt?
Common sense should prevail.
Mildot
It is an ROs responsibility to enforce the rules as they are written. If you feel that properly performing their duty makes an RO a "horses ass" it is your prerogative, but it makes me question why you would participate in this sport.
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Poppers that have been hit/driven down, esp those as activators, should be setup and shot with calibration ammo after the run. The competitor would chose whether he/she wants to accept the current run (like interference) or have a calibration shot taken. IF the popper fails during calibration then she/he must reshoot. Also, if there is a popper challenge on a hit, where the popper didn't fall, the calibration shot should be taken and If it falls then it should be reset and shot again because we don't know what state it was in after being hit 1-3-x times.
There's to much room for inequity with these targets... I think it's time we did something about it.
That's all I have to say about it....
JT
So if a competitor drives down an activator and is happy with the stage, you think that it should be calibrated, and if it fails the competitor should be forced to reshoot?
Do you mean it should be calibrated regardless, but the competitor decides beforehand if they want to keep their first run?
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So we need to set up a chronograph and do that whole process for a level one match as well. If none of the ammo is checked why check the calibration ammo?
As far as I could tell from reading Appendix C1 it would be within the rules to chrono your calibration ammo/gun combination once, say at the start of the season, and use them all year.
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Maybe hitting the plate rack 6 times in row below one plate, but maybe 2 of those were for the plates on either side?
Then give him 3 FTE. It might not be exactly right, but if you're sure he didn't engage 3 he should get 3 FTEs, if you're not sure about the 2 to the sides he should get the benefit of the doubt.
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It has to be extremely obvious. If the first shot is a miss on the far left, and then the shooter hits it on his second try and then hits the next 4 in a row, not engaging the far right, I would probably call it.
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By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course.
I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this!
How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion?
No more than one mandatory reload may be required in a speed shoot. So those who have said that you can't go back and clean-up without penalty are wrong. As long as there is a reload and then a steel target is engaged, no other restrictions can be applied. That is exactly what the shooter at issue did.
Where are you getting "reload and then a steel target from"?
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By definition, this is a "Speed Shoot" course.
I've soooo been waiting for someone to pick up on this!
How does it being a speed shoot affect the discussion?
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(I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.)
I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away.
Shoot everything, reload off the clock.
Nope, you must reload between arrays.
Where does the WSB specify that?
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(I don't want to drift the thread, but I will later share how I could completely game this as it is written.)
I know exactly where you are going. Draw, fire 2 shots in the direction of the steel, reload and hose away.
Shoot everything, reload off the clock.
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Actually, Flex - the stage description is verbatim - i pulled it up and typed it exactly as it is stated, including NOT translating the ampersand to AND. as well as the "," is exactly where it is. The situation is spot on, if you want shots as they occured they were:
Popper, miss, popper, plate(far left to right), miss, plate, miss, plate, plate, miss, plate (slide lock reload), plate, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper, 2 paper
I am OK with your stage description, your "situation" is what is unclear for me (still).
(this is not part of the discussion, just trying to understand what happened)
For clarity sake...lets drill down a bit...lets say your stage was just the steel (no reload, no paper). And, lets say he shot his gun dry and then stopped. Would the situation call for a procedural for failing to engage one of the plates ?
I think I know where this is going - but I'll play along. Yes. Because in that situation, one plate is standing that had not been engaged, so he'd get 1M 1P for failure to engage. This is no different than firing 4 rounds at the first MPP before hitting it then going clean the rest of the run.
OK...that is different from how I read that you presented what happened. The way it read to me was that he had engaged all the steel, just missed one.
Thanks for clarifying. (I'll have to read again with that in mind...tomorrow.)
It doesn't matter. The WSB didn't specify all the steel.
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Instead of dragging flimsy hypotheticals into the discussion that have nothing to do with this, or classifiers that have no relevance because they have differing requirements, let's try to stick to the situation as presented. A link detailing the stage requirements was offered in post #5.
This stage requires the shooter to engage an array, paper or steel, then perform a mandatory reload and engage the other array. The competitor ran dry on the first array and performed a reload so as to continue the same array. He would still need to perform the mandatory reload prior to engaging the other array. He didn't.
That's a per-shot shot penalty per 10.2.4:
10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.
You added a "then" that wasn't in the WSB. If the WSB had said "then", I'd agree with you. Flex is right.
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For those wanting to understand WTG a little better:
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I've purchased most of my Glocks used, and in all honesty don't know if they are in a "shipped-from-the-factory" configuration. I haven't checked for matching serial numbers on frame and slide, and don't plan to do so. I'll be astounded if a match official tells me that I don't have matching numbers, and that I need to prove that I am in compliance with the rules. I wouldn't be able to prove that, but I'm not losing sleep over it. If my negligance in checking my serial numbers causes me to be bumped to open, I'm OK with it.
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5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).
That, "after the start signal" applies to all of rule 5.2.4. It doesn't disappear for the second sentence.\
If you read all of the posts in this topic you'll note that whether it disappears is not clear to some very experienced people.
Unless one is hankering (desperately wanting to with vindictive intent?) to bump someone to Open this is a rather silly discussion.I'm pretty sure that most, maybe even all of the posters here don't have "vindictive intent", but rather want to figure out the rules and possible arguments at home, rather than on the range.
I think it to our collective benefit to see the forest instead of the trees; the intent instead of the semantical twists.\It's an RO's job to enforce the rules as written, not to interpret them.
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JA:
1. At "Make Ready", a Production shooter pulls a mag with 11 rounds from their front pocket and inserts it into gun and holsters. No problem.
3. A production or single stack shooter has a magazine in their front pocket, but never uses it throughout the COF. The rules state they cannot be forward of the hip bone during the COF, nothing in the rules states whether they are used or not, so someone could call them on it.
These are contradictory.
No - they are not. Read the rule:
5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1Yes - which is why quoting and restating - while eating up tons of space on a page, is critical.
Yes they are, read the second part in red, it states the the mags cannot be forward of the hipbone during the COF. The first part is during the COF, but he says "No problem".
Table Starts
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
1. Yes
2. 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required
by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment
must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match....
Since you'd be using the vest to hold moonclips, I think it could be considered "allied equipment", in which case you'd need to wear it for all the stages. It's a judgement call, so you could check with the RM.