kenjuudo

pjb45: I hear ya' man... but it's hard to control the OCD in me... in fact, I had to type this note 5 times, tap the mouse twice and turn the lights off and on three times before hitting the "Add Reply" button (once)... I'm happy with where this load is at, so... bring on the chrono...

Agreed... my only real concern with ES and SD was reliably making power factor... Well, that's good news... thanks! Dave.

Well, I'm happy to report that I now have an N310 load that is working consistently and making the target PF... and the initial chrono results are (finally!) outstanding. Speer 200 Grain TMJ (tumbled in medium walnut media to remove the slipperiness) Federal SP Magnum Primers 4.5 Grains N310 Assorted Brass, 1.160 C.O.L. Low= 899 Hi= 917 Av= 903 Es= 18 Sd= 4.46 Power factor = 178 (calculated based on a 198 grain projectile, which is the lightest found when weighing the Speer "200" grainers) Tumbling (cleaning) the Speer projectiles made all the difference. The Starline brass is nice, but as G-ManBart correctly pointed out it runs slower than the multi-fired brass due to being somewhat softer. The average velocity from the Starline brass was about 25 fps slower than the assorted, running at 877 fps. I'll use the Starline for local matches but the nationals are on the west coast and the range is approx. 2,300 feet lower in altitude than here at home... so the extra speed / power factor is required to be safe over the chrono. Thanks for all of the input... it's most appreciated...! Dave.

Just a quick update on this situation with high ES and SD's on these loads... I purchased 1000 pieces of Starline brass and fired 20 rounds over the chrono. The average speed of the first string was about 20 fps slower than the 885 fps I've been getting with assorted brass, but the rounds were relatively consistent with an ES of about 32 fps and an SD of 9.8 fps. Having said that, the second string was a complete mess. With a low of 808 and a high of 868 the string only averaged 846 fps (which doesn't make major) with an ES of 60.60 and an SD of 23. SO, between the two strings, the ES is 77 fps, which is unacceptable when considering all the talk (both here and elsewhere) about single digit SD's with N310 and that I need these to chrono reliably at the IPSC Nationals... And so, I'm not sure what to try next. The Starline brass is brand spanking new, my Dillon D-Terminator digital scale tells me the charge weights are all within 0.1 of the target (either 4.2 or 4.3 grains on every dump)... the C.O.L. lands in a 5 thou range between 1.160" and 1.165"... the projectiles all weigh within 2 grains either side of 200... so I'm stumped. I was expecting big things from this load and frankly it's far, far, far less consistent than my Titegroup efforts have been over the past 3 years. I'm down to looking for "weird" stuff... and the Speer TMJ projectiles are my first subject of investigation. I've found a couple of them that, when spun between the blades of a dial calliper, appear to be ever so slightly out-of-round. They "wow" from .400" to about .4015"... but I've only found two in the 50 or so that I measured so statistically speaking that should only be 40 out of the 1000 round box and with all the issues so far I would have had to have loaded most of those already (which doesn't seem likely). The other thing that occurred to me last night as a possible cause of the inconsistency is that the projectiles are "slippery". They feel like they've either got some kind of a mould release agent on them, of they've been specifically lubed before being boxed. Now, it's not like there's a lot of "slip" to them, but enough to make me wonder if they're not getting "gripped" quite the way they should be by the brass. I tumbled a bunch of the projectiles and they feel way "better". I'll load them using the Starline brass and see if it makes any difference. Any and all input, suggestions, comments, criticisms, admonishments etc. would be greatly appreciated. Either I figure this out this weekend (as the Canadian IPSC Nationals are in two weeks) or I'm ditching the N310 and 200 grain and going back to 180 grain and Titegroup. Thanks for listening...! Dave. Edited to corect speling.

I am using an EGW U-die. I'm no scientist, but I do know that brass work hardens... might some of the brass I'm using, some pieces of which have been shot multiple times (and subsequently resized, or "worked) be "stiffer", and as a result producing higher velocities than the less often shot pieces, resulting in some of the variation in velocities? Thanks for this. These are the kinds of SD's I've read about from a number of people but at the moment seem unable to achieve. Perhaps your results are due to the once fired nature of the brass you're using (as opposed to the many times fired nature of mine). I'm going to sort the brass for my next chrono effort by headstamp and see if that makes a difference. The other approach will be to purchase brand new brass and run some of that to see what the results are like. And just an FYI, while I am an American citizen, I'm living in Canada, and in pricing new brass today (which I haven't done in a very long time I guess) I was horrified to discover that 100 pieces (that's one hundred pieces) of new Winchester or Remington .40 brass costs between $33 and $39 depending on where it's purchased...! And as AzShooter suggested I priced out Starline today as well and while less expensive than the Win. and Rem. stuff, it's still $190.00 / thousand.

Thanks guys... I'll sort by head stamp and try and control my OCD over SD's... G-ManBart: Thank you for adding the disclaimer at the end of your post, I should have thought to do that in my OP. AzShooter: After seating the bullet shorter I've had a couple of 10 round strings with an ES of 23-27 and a couple between 42 and 53 fps... For the record, and to reinforce what both G-ManBart and AzShooter have said about being careful with this load... I started this load development with 3.5 grains of N310 and a 1.190" C.O.L... fired 30 rounds over the chrono, checking primers on all the cases, moved the load up to 4 grains at 1.190", 30 rounds over the chrono, 4.3 grains at 1.190"... 30 rounds, checking primers all along. Then, in an effort to tighten up the ES / SD spread shortened the load to 1.175" and 4.0 grains, which took the load from an ES of 80 to the current 45ish range.... then, moved to 1.160 with 4.0, then 4.2... and now, at the 4.3 and 1.160" load I'm getting an average velocity (per string) in the 867 to 875 fps range... primers look well within reason showing some minor breach face transfer while still retaining most of the radius... and good (normal looking) firing pin detents. In talking with someone last night they suggested that increasing the crimp slightly might improve the ES / SD... I'm currently putting about a 1 thou crimp... the calliper reads ~.421 halfway down the seated bullet, and ~.420 right at the lip of the case mouth. Understanding that increasing the crimp will increase pressures I'll take the charge weight down again and work back up... but how much crimp "should" one be running?

Hey Fellas, I'm working up a .40 load using VV N310 and 200 grain projectiles. This isn't a "is N310 any good" or "is N310 safe to load in .40" or "can someone give me their N310 load data" etc. etc. etc. thread... more of a general question regarding what affect, in your collective experience, using assorted (many times fired) brass might have on velocity (consistency) / standard deviation. My load is: 200 Grain Speer TMJ Federal SP Magnum Primer 4.3 Grains of VV N310 1.160" C.O.L. Assorted Brass I'm getting a pretty wide range of fluctuation in velocities round to round, with extreme speeds in the 45+/- fps range and standard deviations between 10 and 15 fps (and in some cases worse). I've read lots in this forum about VV producing single digit standard deviations, but I'm not seeing that. I've shortened the load down from 1.190" to the current 1.160" which brought the SD down from 80+/- fps to 45+/-... I'm using a Dillion 650 (and believe the powder dump to be consistent)... I've confirmed that the loads are within a couple thou either side of 1.160" and yet I'm still seeing high extreme speeds / SD's. Just for information's sake... the load is making an average of 175 power factor over 10 round strings... but I wouldn't want to have to chrono this load at a match hoping that the three rounds they pic are three of the faster ones in a handful. So (at long last) my question is... would using brand new, never fired brass, address the issue...and or, can "used" brass be responsible for wide ranging extreme speeds / standard deviations? Thanks, Dave.

Thank you for your reply... While I've not used a rest, I can readily shoot ragged holes at 15 yards, and keep all rounds in the B zone at 25 yards while shooting for groups... which is why this perplexes me... thank you for the sense that the physical universe may have at least a hand in the matter... you've inspired a physics mini-quest... that start of which revealed some trig that I hadn't considered... POI v. The Hypotenuse... thanks...! Chriss Grube: I would tend to agree, and while I would consider myself somewhat more then passingly skilled with a pistol, I am certainly no expert... I can shoot groups however... and I'm an A class IPSC shooter. This detail isn't offered defensivly, but rather to suggest that I am not asking the question without having thought quite a bit about it... and again I agree with you... I can always use more practice (including shooting groups at +/- 30 degrees aoa ) Thanks...!! Dave.

I'm having trouble understanding why... when shooting at (along) the line of sight, my pistol shoots at point of aim out to about 25 yards... when shooting at targets that are either above or below my line of sight, the pistol (or more likely myself) shoots WAY, WAY low... to hit 8 inch plates at ground level from 11 or 12 yards I have to hold a good 2 inches above the plate... we shot a stage on Sunday that had two paper targets out at 20 yards... they were on the slope of a slight hill, maybe two or three feet (at 20 yards) above my "foot level"... I (thought) I was holding in the A zone... but 2 delta, delta mike suggests otherwise... what the %$# is going on...??? I am MORE then willing to go get my eyes checked... but just before I do... anyone know of a logical reason other then ME that might be causing this issue... Thanks very much in advance for any help...! Regards, David.

This past weekend, at the first outdoor match of the year (Canada you know) a couple of interesting circumstances led me to what might be an insight into loosing yourself in the shooting / moment and just "doing it"... either that, or something unnatural happened, but whatever it was, it was cool... and while "I" was there, the one doing the shooting, I have to say that I can't really recall exactly what happened for part of one stage... is that odd...? Please provide whatever comments or suggestions, insights through past experience, or whatever else you might be motivated to share... 'cause as I mentioned, I'm not really sure what mechanism(s) came into play here. The first stage in question was comprised of two full size poppers, two classic paper targets, and two Texas Stars (or something like a Texas Star... a five spoked frame, mounted on a shaft through it's center, with 5 x 8" plates, one each on the end of the spokes... when you engage a plate and it falls off the spoke, the Star becomes unbalanced and starts to spin or change direction if it's already spinning...). The two Texas Stars were set apart by approx. 30 yards, an equal distance back from the forward charge line (approx. 11 yards). The two full size poppers were straight down the middle, and the two papers were one either side, set just outside of the Texas Stars... on signal, the call was to open a hinged port, engage the two full size poppers down the center, and then proceed to either the left or right side of the barricade and engage the single paper and Texas Star on that side, then proceed to the other side and finish the second paper and Texas Star... well, on the beep, I opened the port, engaged the two full size poppers, let the port fall closed and went to the left side of the barricade to deal with the stuff on that side first... engaged the paper with two rounds, and then started onto the Texas Star... given that the star was stationary to begin with, the first two rounds each got plates... but the remaining three plates took about 7 rounds (approx.) to get... so, after completing that side, I took off running around the barricade heading for the right hand side. About 2/3 of the way around the barricade, with the ground surface being made up of mostly red chipped shale, I took a serious header into the dirt... landing mostly on my right forearm and hip... and wound up lying kinda' on my belly, thankfully with the old Para pointing in a safe direction... the RO ask if I was ok, to which I quickly replied yes, and asked if I could continue shooting, the RO replied "yes, but you should stand up first..." which I did and (dusty as hell now) proceeded the rest of the way around the barricade to engage the right hand Star and paper... which I did in 8 rounds total, and in what seemed to be a mere couple of seconds... all ending in a bit of a cheer from the rest of my squad (which was nice)... so that's 2 rounds for the paper, and six rounds for the 5 plates on the Star (significantly better ratio then I had achieved on the left hand side...) The only difference between the two sides, about 30 yards, some road rash, a lot of dirt in my shorts, and some embarrassment... all of which I would have otherwise expected to degrade my ability to shoot... but not in this case... and as I mentioned at the top... while I know how many rounds I fired (because the mag I finished with was full heading over to the right side, and had three rounds left when I was done) I have no real recollection of having fired those 8 rounds... I'm thinking that all of the stuff other then shooting that was running through my brain just setup enough "distance" between me and my shooting to allow me to shoot "naturally"... or without thinking about whatever it is that I normally think about while shooting... but by whatever means, I wish I could shoot like that all the time... Now, in the second instance, the stage was a very long (approx 60 yards) straight down the middle kinda' thing... two steel from Box A, then proceed forward engaging papers as they became visible (behind staggered barricades down both the left and right hand sides, ending with two steel at the end of the course of fire)... Now at this point I should mention that the club ran two qualifiers last weekend, one Saturday and one Sunday... with the stages being massaged Saturday night, but for the most part (with the exception of actual target placement), the two days stages were very, very similar... so, on Saturday, I shot the course and scored a kinda' dogs breakfast... A's, C's and D's alike... minimum call was 32 rounds including steel... so come Sunday, the stage is for all intents and purposes the same as it had been the day before, except that each and every target position was now obscured by soft cover. They had taken long pieces of snow fence (orange rubberized mesh fencing, full of approx 1.5" square "holes"... I'm sure you've seen the stuff....) Well, they rolled it up into a kinda wide sausage shape, and then stood it in front of each target stand, completely covering the targets. While you could still make out the general shape of the targets behind the snow fence, no way could you see scoring zones, or even really make out where the edges of the target were... kinda' cool... but here's the thing... with the targets covered in this manner, I took almost 7 seconds of my previous days time, and my hits were 24 x A's, 4 x C's (and 4 steel)... all without being able to actually see the targets... so, with the targets completely exposed, a slow dogs breakfast... and with all but a faint outline of the targets covered, a (relatively) quick 24 A's and 4 C's... here again... what's up with that... I'm guessing that the targets being covered caused me to think differently (or less) about the actual shooting, and I simply went out and shot at the targets...