Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Art Yeo

Classified
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    195

  • Joined

  • Last visited

 Content Type 

Posts posted by Art Yeo

    My M&P9

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    I am wondering if anyone has tried the fairly new Apex Tactical Grade Bbl?

    What kind of results are you getting at 25 yards, compared to a CZ 75 and Beretta 92?

    Accuracy is coming...

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    Increase the shooting distance

    I would like to see the groupings for various test results shooting at 25 yards and 50 yards by hand on sandbags.

    If any of you have the drop-in Apex bbl, let's see the groupings as well.

    And, let's shoot it with heavier loads 9mm. Light loads used for competition is not the norm for 9mm. The Army Marksmanship Unit had tested the 9mm to death and the most accurate loads are the heavier loads.

    As I have reported previously on this website, at close range, you cannot see much difference among all the bbl (Old style OEM , New style OEM, Storm Lake, etc.)

    You can only see the difference when you increase the distance.

    So, let's see those.

    Randy,

    If you have test results that meet the above requirements, please post them.

    Also, if you can comment a little on why you changed the twist rate to 1:10, if would be great.

    What's the Remington recall turnaround?

    in Precision Rifle

    Posted

    If you have not shipped it yet have you thought about buying an aftermarket trigger instead? I cannot directly answer your question only speculate that with the numbers involved it will not be quick.

    I have already sent it in.

    Then, I realized that I can buy the Timney trigger directly from their website.

    Oh well ...

    Bar-Sto Barrel from Apex Tactical preview pic

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    These will be a 1:16" twist, same as Bar-Sto uses across the board. These barrels should handle the 147gr bullets like a champ.

    Scott @ Apex

    What is the twist rate on these? I am wondering how they will handle the 147s.

    How could it make any difference if the twist rate is this slow?

    a) Almost all of the European manufacturers who are producing service pistols have twist-rates around 1:9 - 1:10

    B) S&W has already switched all of their current production bbl to 1:10 twist rate and they shoot nice and straight.

    • I want to know what kind of technical advantage this new bbl brings before I even think of spending another single $0.01.
    • If it's just durability, it's a tough sell.
    • If it needs a smith to fit, it is also a tough sell because the current factory bbl shoots accurately and it is drop-in.

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted

    I recently purchased a new barrel for my M&P 9FS from Midway. (Midway has the new barrels for the 9mm FS) I was thinking of marking my old barrel so I wouldn't get it confused with my new one but after looking at the rifling inside the new barrel I realized it was drastically different from the old one. I won't be getting these barrels mixed up as the increased twist rate of the new barrel is quite obvious.

    I've yet to test the barrels against each other for accuracy. I've got about 25k rounds through my old barrel and thought I would try a new barrel.

    I am sure we would love to see if you have seen any difference between the two bbl in terms of shooting at 25 yards.

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted

    I am not trying to argue it all the way here so bear with me.

    Using the Indian/Bow allegory again, if the bow-and-arrow is only accurate in the hands of a GM or a SEAL Weapon Instructor, they should advertise it that way.

    That way, let all who recognize themselves as mere mortals can avoid such products and gravitate towards products made for mortals.

    Fortunately, I have competed in IDPA myself, gone through the military and met & talked with experts before. So, I am not exactly pulling things out from my derriere.

    Okay Art as you seem civil enough, I am taking my mere mortal Indian and his M&P bow to the range with Fed and Win Wally World arrows this weekend. I'm going to shoot groups at 15, 25, and 50yds if I can get the space to. I'll post my results good, bad or ugly. If you're right, then you're right. I've fired my M&P exactly six times so far so I am not very familiar with the platform. My credentials are this: IDPA dropout, USPSA and ICORE c class revolver shooter (inactive), Military Sealift Command(civilian mariner) M9 handgun qualified (best in class twice 239/240). I'm not a noob, but still very mortal.

    You've picqued my curiosity about the capabilities of the platform. So let's check it out.

    Forrest,

    If yours was acquired recently, you might be in luck and have the 1:10" twist-rate M&P9 (see my post today).

    Please let us know the results of your shooting excursion.

    Thanks,

    Art

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    The CORE, and the newer M&Ps 9mms have a significantly faster twist rate on the barrels. This is resulted in a significant increase in accuracy.

    I've got nine S&W .38/.357 revolvers across three frame sizes, plus my 2008 production M&P FS 9x19. All use the same rate of twist. All of them stay under 2" at 25 yards. There are apparently a few M&P 9s that shoot poorly out there, but it's not due to the rate of twist. My guess is that S&W just had a bad batch of barrels.

    Show me the spec sheets that give the twist on those, because that is not what S&W says..

    Mark - For the last hundred or so years, the rate of twist in S&W .38 revolvers has been one turn in 18-3/8". It works for bullets from 95-200+ grains. In the 60s and 70s, Winchester offered a .38 Special "Super Police" load using a 200 grain LRN that didn't break 600 fps from a snubbie, and there weren't any problems with stabilization (admittedly not the same as accuracy). When S&W came out with the M&P 9, the reviews noted that the rate of twist was the same as the .38 revolvers...IIRC, the Model 39 also used the same twist, but I can't swear to that. Colt did almost the same thing - their revolver rate of twist is one turn in 14", and the 9x19 and .38 Super factory 1911 barrels used a 1-16" twist.

    I checked in the S&W website, and couldn't find the M&P 9's rate of twist noted anywhere. I dug the M&P 9 and the first relevant S&W revolver I found (M19-3 4") out of the safe and looked down the bores, and they sure look like they have the same rate of twist. I also have a SIG P6, a Beretta 92 Brigadier, and two CZ-75s, and they have obviously faster rates of twist - I believe it's 1-9.7". The Beretta and one of the CZs are honest 1.5" at 25 yard guns, and the others run in the 2" range.

    S&W may have unscrewed the problem with 9x19 barrels so that they all give good accuracy, and they may have changed the rate of twist. I'm just saying that there's no relationship between the two occurrences.

    revchuck,

    I agree with your logic about the success of the slower twist-rate .38spl revolver days and actually Elmer Keith has also talked about it.

    However, on the 9mm semi-auto platform, there is clearly a difference between the sharp shooting higher twist-rate European made ones and the M&P9.

    I may be wrong but I cannot come up with any European-made 9mm semi-auto pistol that has a slow twist-rate as the old M&P9 or the .38spl revolvers.

    Twist-rate changed

    I wrote to S&W and the official confirmation came in this morning.

    The current twist rate for the M&P9 has, indeed, been changed to match the European competitors and it is now ... (drum roll, please) ... 1:10"

    I'd be very curious to know who has just bought an M&P9 recently that has the faster twist-rate rifling and have tested its accuracy at 25 yards or further.

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted

    The CORE, and the newer M&Ps 9mms have a significantly faster twist rate on the barrels. This is resulted in a significant increase in accuracy.

    That's an interesting factoid. Did S&W release the numbers for the latest twist-rate?

    Was this only changed for the M&P9 or also for the M&P40 ?

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted

    This thread reminds me of a young man that once said his gun just wouldn't shoot right. His father took the pistol and proceeded to obliterate the x ring at 25 yards. I have kept my father's lesson in the front of my mind when accuracy testing any firearm. I have seen imperfect arrows, but far more often I have seen, in my own reflection, an imperfect archer.

    I am not trying to argue it all the way here so bear with me.

    Using the Indian/Bow allegory again, if the bow-and-arrow is only accurate in the hands of a GM or a SEAL Weapon Instructor, they should advertise it that way.

    That way, let all who recognize themselves as mere mortals can avoid such products and gravitate towards products made for mortals.

    Fortunately, I have competed in IDPA myself, gone through the military and met & talked with experts before. So, I am not exactly pulling things out from my derriere.

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    Bone stock 2009 vintage M&P Pro (9mm) at 15 yards...... The gun is far more accurate than I am. I have a new 2013 vintage Pro that is just about as good.....

    ph265oto.jpg

    Like I have said many times, at close range, almost all of the 9mm guns shoots about the same.

    Try it at 25 yards.

    At 25 yards or further, you will see which brands produce a more consistent product.

    M&P Pro Accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    I would have your gun fired by a GM or other "expert" not your friend or fellow range mate to remove the operator from the equation. I just spent a week with SEAL T6 weapons instructors and Bill Rogers shooting over a dozen MP9's. In capable hands the MP's shoot -1". Ever gun these guns shot the Sigs, MP's, Glocks, 1911's, and a few others they all shot at, or less than, 1" regardless of ammo or set up.

    You can always send it to Bill Rogers or Dawson or visit Manny Bragg or one of several others. Then, and only then, will you know without a doubt. You also can maybe even try a KKM and see if it really makes a difference for you. The cost of the KKM is cheap and if you find that you shoot the same you can always sell it for what you paid for it to the next guy who thinks he can buy tighter groups. Buy the KKM but that said, I'm confident that your OEM barrel will shoot 2" or less with the factory barrel in good condition. I'm now convinced, more than ever, it is more the indian than the arrow in most of the cases.

    I'd consider the fact that the Indians shot around 1" using a decent 1911 loaded with 45ACP and did the same thing with a Beretta 92-series and a CZ 75-series at 25 yards.

    I have never been a Glock fan. Lately, I am more and more convinced that, if 9mm is the cartridge in question, Glock has mastered a consistently accurate plastic gun more than S&W. I thought this was a myth until I shot it myself. And, you do not need to get a G34, even the regular vanilla G17 produced a close pattern group at 25 yards. Yes, Glock ergo is no where near the M&P but they are more accurate at longer distances.

    mp pro 40 5" horrible accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    [...]

    After all of my testing and frustration, I think that the primary issue with accuracy is due to the angled portion on the under side of the slide where the next round in the magazine pushes up on the slide. The .40 M&P's have a slight ramp on the under side of the slide in this area and the 9mm M&P's don't.

    [...]

    Quite many of us (including Hilton Yam of the 10-8 Performance website) have found that the M&P9 is the weakest link of the M&P product line. My understanding is that the M&P product line was designed with the 40SW in mind and the rest of the caliber support were evolved in design from the M&P40.

    Here was my long road to my search for accuracy in my M&P9 and M&P9 Pro 5" (pre-CORE):

    http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=157995&hl=

    BTW, you guys have convinced me not to pursue getting the M&P40 Pro. My policy for gun ownership has always been this: "fast is fine but accuracy is final." I cannot live with an inaccurate gun, it drives up the wall. One long journey with the M&P9 is enough for a life-time.

    mp pro 40 5" horrible accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted · Edited by Art Yeo

    If 9mm Luger is the caliber in question, there are a few other guns I have tested with consistent high accuracy at 25 yards or further:

    1. CZ 75 series
    2. Beretta 92-series
    3. Glock G17 and G34 (very pleased with them at the current prices)

    I have to highlight that the G17 and G34 do not need an Apex kit nor KKM barrels. Their triggers are not gritty and the reset is audible and can be felt. The factory bbl are very accurate right out of the box. And, I do not work for Glock nor have I received a single cent from Glock.

    Accuracy of .40 Caliber M&P's

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted

    Sorry to raise this thread from the depths ... I am looking into M&P40 with caution so bear with me.

    Did any of you shoot your M&P40 (Pro or regular) at 25 yards or further and still able to see a clear correlated pattern in the holes or are they pretty much scatted at this distance?

    mp pro 40 5" horrible accuracy

    in S&W (M&P, etc)

    Posted

    Your recoil spring is probably to weak. I believe Cha-Lee messed around with lighter recoil springs and as soon as he bumped them back up he had instantly better accuracy. Even my Open M&P setup uses a 15lb spring.

    I am not understanding the technicalities of recoil spring and accuracy.

    By the time the slide hits the recoil spring, the bullet has long left the bbl, isn't it?

×
×
  • Create New...