Neil Beverley
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Posts posted by Neil Beverley
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that hubba-hubba serving espresso at Terni
She was worth 3 black eyes.
As was the team mascot on legs.
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On one of the first stages the ROs shot, Pepper Poppers provided too much momentum and leverage and accelerated the charcoal briquettes to 60 mph and beyond the 180 in about one half of a second. So US Poppers went in place of the PP.
On the pistol/shotgun stage with the door, swinger, and trolly, where you were supposed to shoot 3 poppers and 3 clays/charcoals, a certain RO who shall not be named was the first shooter and he ignored the disappearing targets before the slugs.
The same RO shooter was first again on the next stage, the shotgun/pistol side-to-side with the low tombstone-shaped port on the left. And again he ignored the flipped, disappearing charcoal.
After a few more ROs did this, the M.D. decided if the pre-match RO shooters weren't going for the disappearing targets, the real-match shooters wouldn't go for them, and he replaced them with static targets.
Unless disappearing frangible targets are declared as being worth double points (i.e. 10 points) then they are likely to be (should be?) ignored by all serious competitors. This particularly applies when you have to reload extra rounds to complete the C of F (or the shotgun element of it).
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10.8 Match Disqualification - Scaring Women and Children
10.8.1 Competitors and match officials will be disqualified from a match for actions which the Match Director, Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Witch Doctor or another Holy Man deems is likely to scare women and children. Examples of such actions include, but are not limited to, large American men doing a hakka, sumo or similar dance, Scotsmen displaying their "meat and two veg", purple pachyderms ventilating their nether regions outside the confines of a porta-potty and Kiwis engaging in lewd acts with farmyard animals (including "platonic" kissing). The Range Master must be notified as soon as he stops barfing.
This gets my vote except that banning "platonic" kissing is a bit harsh.
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I support the rule for single gun matches but can absolutely see sense in allowing the rule to be over-ridden in MG.
I would guess it's been overlooked so far but as Bruce has pointed out on more than one occassion the MG rules are a trial set and I'm sure he will be taking note.
Anyone who has ever been involved in the process will tell you it doesn't matter how hard you try some stuff can slip by. There are around 550 rules in the IPSC rule book, per discipline, if I remember correctly, and about 150 of these are different across the 3 disciplines. Human nature being what it is people focus on the 5 or 6 rules that they don't like and barely mention the rest. C'est la vie.
Finally I would mention, that contrary to the urban myth about the rule book getting bigger the IPSC 2004 Shotgun rule book dropped by around 60 words. I seem to recall that Vince had similar statistics for the handgun rule book.
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Vince
Isn't that why we changed the rules (IPSC) for Strings/Standards so it can't be done? What you shoot is what you get, per String.
But then we've already discussed the merits of our case!
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I thought about starting a new thread rather than posting this here but then I decided it probably is relevant to this subject. However, Moderators, please feel free to split this off at your discretion.
I must also state that this isn't anything that IPSC has been discussing in any way. It is simply a query from me.
In IPSC rules, strings are scored, timed and taped separately. Strings in a Standard excercise can be scored separately as an option in the US variant of the rules.
In these cases is it necessary/desireable to insist that Fixed Time must be fixed number of rounds? Instead, if we give say 4 seconds, should the shooter be permitted to shoot as many rounds as they can within the 4 seconds? The number of scoring hits to be limited as in Comstock.
As far as penalties are concerned we would only be left with overtime shots and any hits on penalty targets. If adopted in conjuction with disappearing targets then scoring becomes very simple.
It could only be feasible if the strings are scored separately. Personally I quite like the idea of allowing fixed time to be either fixed rounds or unrestricted. Either or!
Edited
I would add that the IPSC Shotgun and Rifle Rules for 2002 and 2003 stated: "No restriction on the number of rounds that could be fired".
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David
Excellent post! I couldn't agree more and I feel strongly about this subject.
There is no honour in cheating and how can anyone walk away from a prize or trophy table with something truly won by someone else?
Integrity is priceless.
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I am going to take the opportunity to be the first to welcome Tim Andersen to the BE Forums, who joined today.
Tim is a long standing member of IPSC and is a very active handgun and rifle shooter.
More importantly Tim is the Chairman of the IPSC Rifle Rules Committee and his involvement here should prove very beneficial all round.
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Hi All
The rule below is relevant to these discussions:
5.1.10 The rifle must be fitted with a stock enabling it to be fired from the shoulder.I seem to recall that the Rifle Rules Committee debated this very same subject but I don't want to be too hasty to state my recollections of the final outcome on the matter.
Hopefully Troy will find his way here some time soon and he might be able to shed some light but in addition I will email the topic to Tim Andersen, the Rifle Committee Chairman, to ask him for a comment.
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Hi guys,
My primary concern is that it looks like we need to address the issue of sound suppressors, one way or another, but I believe the optimum solution would be for Handgun, Rifle and Shotgun disciplines to each deal with them at Division level in the Appendices by either:
1. Changing the existing "Compensator" line in each Appendix table to "Compensators and/or suppressors permitted" ............... Yes/No.
OR
2. Adding a new line in the tables with "Suppressors permitted" ............... Yes/No.
Of course it might be expedient, for Handgun only, to add the word in bold below:
5.1.10 Handguns with suppressors, shoulder stocks and/or foregrips of any kind are prohibited.
In any case, we'd also need to add a new definition of the respective items in each Glossary.
Comments?
I made a note of this topic early this morning and I'm sure we should deal with it.
I lean towards Vince's option 2.
For SG I would permit them in Open and Modified but not in Standard.
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Kurt
Very many thanks for your kind words.
At the end of the day the better man won the Division. There was no way I could justify keeping that trophy with any sense of decency and conscience.
What I also know is that you have just as much integrity and honour and if you had known what I had intended I'm sure you would have fought against me sending it to you. The CD with the photos was just the ruse to get hold of your new address.
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Neil,
We would love to start with all guns loaded. However, isn't there a rule about being more than a meter (or meter and a half, can't remember) away from a loaded firearm? If so, on all the stages, in a loaded condition, competitor's would have been DQ'ed.
For the record, I'm for starting with all guns loaded, safeties on, etc. I'm also for grounding loaded guns so long as they are pointed in a 'safer' direction (i.e. towards a berm or in such a way that competitor and RO's will not cross the muzzle).
Thanks for the info.
Rich
First I would say that a loaded magazine and empty chamber is still classed as a loaded gun so as a number of the stages required an empty chamber start the gun is still defined as being loaded within the rules.
There was a discussion on the subject of distance from a loaded gun at the start of a stage on the USPSA/IPSC Rules Forum. By the way the distance is 1 metre.
In a nutshell if you are instructed by the range briefing and therefore the Range Officer to place your gun at a certain position and then instructed to move away you are responding to their direct authority. This overrides the 1m rule up to the start signal. One the start signal is given then the competitor becomes responsible for each gun they then use from the point they start using it (including carrying it if applicable). However the IPSC Rules committee have it noted to discuss a change to the existing rule to make the situation clearer. Please see below a proposed change from Vince Pinto which I will be supporting:
10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter (3.28 feet) of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and <snip>
For the record I'm all for the guns starting loaded as well. As well as sometimes unloaded and sometimes with mag loaded and chamber empty. Mix it up I say, it's all good.
As for grounding the gun still loaded? Well we've already discussed this and personally I'm happy with it.
However, Bruce Gary made a very valid point a few weeks back which I support wholeheartedly. Basically he said lets's get this first match done and see what works. Then build on it. I can't fault that as a concept. It sounds to me that the Board is listening and is progressing things. I'm sure next year's match will be that much better as a result of this year and the feedback being generated.
The MG rules will be tweaked. The scoring program will be modified. To me the more important issues to be resolved seem to be competitor and RO training and ability. Not a ctiticism, just an observation.
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I've seen 3 or 4 comments now which raise the issue of empty chamber starts.
For clarity, and based on the 2004 Shotgun and Rifle rules, I would advise that the default is that the safety catch (to be applied) is only a requirement for a loaded chamber start. If the chamber is empty then the safety is optional at the competitors discretion. Please see below.
(SG) 8.1.1.1 Loaded (Option 1): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber(s) loaded, hammer and/or sear cocked and safety catch engaged (if the shotgun is designed to have one).
(SG) 8.1.1.2 Loaded (Option 2): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber(s) empty and the action closed.
(SG) 8.1.1.3 Unloaded (Option 3): fixed magazine must be empty, detachable magazines removed and chamber(s) must be empty. The action/bolt may be open or closed.
However, please note the rule below which gives scope for an organiser to insist on the safety catch being applied if specifically stated in the written briefing. ROs can't make it up as they go.
8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing.
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Hi All
I'm pleased that you have, in the main, enjoyed the match.
Well done to the guys at the top and well done to the others for surviving the match
! Commiserations to those that didn't.For future reference:
2004 Rifle and Shotgun rules:
9.4.1.1 In order to recognize a difficult shot in a course of fire, a small number of metal and/or frangible targets may score double value for a hit. The use of such targets is restricted to not more than 10% of the total number of targets in the match. Their use must have been approved during the course review process and they must be clearly identified in the written stage briefing.
9.4.4 Each miss will be penalized twice the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of disappearing targets (see Rules 9.2.4.5 and 9.9.2).
By applying these rules a miss will cost you minus 30 points and that shifts the balance dramatically. In the example discussed by gmw2b 6 misses would virtually wipe the stage. Virtually but not quite because if 6 targets are scored double then for the same number of targets on the stage the max points goes up to 190.
Actually I think he meant to say 4 misses? Even with 4 misses on double value targets the score would drop significantly:
150 points scored minus 80 penalty points so 70/44.44 = 1.58 HF,
compared to
190 points / 80 seconds = 2.38 HF
A stage (results) difference of 64 points.
The rules above were introduced specifically to tackle stages like this.
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I'll add my birthday greetings to Skywalker's.
Many happy ones to come!
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Flex
Out of curiosity I entered the search string "award certificate templates" in Google and loads of stuff came up. Most sites require a purchase but I suspect if you search through you'll find some Freeware.
The site below offered loads of choices with a 30 day free trial:
You could design your own based on inspiration from some other example. Try: Word - Format - Borders and Shading. Also you can download a number of borders from "clip art".
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Flex
You might be able to adapt one of the templates from the Microsoft Office Downloads website: HERE
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outerlimits - Good luck at the match.
Indeed good luck to all. It looks like a lot of fun and deserves to be a success.
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outerlimits
5.2.1.2 provides for the gun to be carried without the need for a case of slip, as does US 5.2.1.4.
There is no rule that stipulates that guns can only be removed from cases in safety areas or alternatively on the line under RO supervision.
5.2.1.5 states "at all times" (except when in a safety area). This includes in cases and slips. Initially there were one or two queries about why the flag is required while in a case but it is because guns can be (are permitted to be) removed from slips off the line and outside a safety area. The safety flag provides an extra measure of safety and provides a visual reference to this fact.
It was discussed whether to stipulate that flags were to be only required for uncased shotguns but we didn't want shooters fiddling about trying to insert a flag every time they uncased their guns.
The bottom line is: come to the match with the safety flag fitted and leave it fitted at ALL times at the match unless on the line or doing something to the gun in a safety area.
Hopefully this reply more than answers your question and attempts to give some logic to the concepts.
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The team event we did was a relay. The empty shotguns for both shooters in each team were placed on tyres. The target array was 4 banks of 3 targets for each team plus a stop plate. The competitors stood about 5 yards (metres) behind the guns. On the beep the first shooters from each team ran forwarded, loaded for 3 targets, once down they had to put unloaded shotgun back on the tyre and then leg it back it to tag the second team member and then repeated until the final array and stop plate.
It only required 2 ROs because there could never be more than 2 shooters hot at a time and the shooting position was static.
Actually a great many things would work but the tagging relay seemed to work well and made for a very visual race.
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I've been undecided whether to post this or not, but what the hell. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
A long (long, long) time ago when I first was starting out I went to my first shotgun match.
The organiser had his own thoughts on getting everyone to mix and bond a little.
He organised a Man v Man side shoot where pairs of shooters competed against other pairs. He drew the names for each pair completely at random out of the hat so forcing new and old shooters, and shooters from north and south to shoot with each other as a team. They worked as a relay team with only one of the team shooting at a time but dependent on each other for the result.
It wasn't intended to be too serious but instead a bit of fun and with the primary intention of getting people to mix where otherwise perhaps they wouldn't. He sponsored a small (silly) prize/trophy. I don't remember what it was, it doesn't really matter (I know I didn't win it).
What I do know was that it was well supported and appreciated by all and it achieved it's aim of getting people to meet. The guy that won the match ended up partnering a newbie (not me). How bad is that?
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As promised please find below some images of chamber flags.
The first one is excellent for rifles in particular and is available from the IPSC store and many gun shops (I'll ask BE if he sells them an add a link if he does).
The next 2 images are my creation from a frisbee as discussed above.
Any device that fulfils the function is OK.
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I've already posted this once before, a few weeks ago, but with the release of the new USPSA Shotgun & Rifle rules I think it's worth bringing this up again.
I've prepared a document, on a single page, which identifies any and all rules (IPSC) that have a rule difference in one or more of the three disciplines. The format is easily understood.
Download the document from HERE
This only deals with IPSC rules. If someone from the Board wants to update the document in line with the US changes then I would be happy to make the original available. Actually Mike V., John A. and Arnie have all been sent, or had access to, the document.
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Neil,
Does that mean that you'd consider a cable lock ---- akin to a bicycle lock --- to be an acceptable flag? The cable would pass through the loading port and the ejection port on a shotgun; through the magwell and the ejection port on an AR.....
Nik
Yes! Bright colours would be best but anything like you describe is perfectly acceptable. The rule actually reads:
5.2.1.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the shotgun is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Rule 2.4.1).It is not a requirement to use a device that fits inside the chamber, only a device that prevents the action from closing fully and/or prevents a round from being chambered.
! Commiserations to those that didn't.
IPSC ROs
in USPSA/IPSC Shooting
Posted
Under this new topic heading I'm going to add the text from a notice that we posted at a match a few years back:
SHIELD SG CHAMPIONSHIP MATCH
24 – 25 OCTOBER 1998
NOTICE
DUE TO A SHORTAGE OF ROBOTS SOME OF OUR RO’S HAVE BEEN REPLACED BY HUMANS.
THEY MAY REACT UNEXPECTEDLY IF PROVOKED!
Actually I think I recall that we decided to make this match a "Politeness Personified" match.
The ROs dressed in suit and tie, some with bow tie. Everything was over the top polite. Everyone had a good giggle and one competitor remarked that the ROs looked smarter than most of the people in his office. And this on a cold damp autumn day.