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cb60130

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Posts posted by cb60130

  1. zzt... You're spot on. Of the 18 combinations I've chrono'd and shot my favorite few have been 155 and 165 with moderately quicker burning powders. They seem to produce the favorable dot movement.

  2. 4 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

    Just curious   .....     WHY a .40 Major?

    I enjoy shooting my local outlaw matches on Thursday nights. At this time I really have no aspirations more serious than that. Most stages can be run without consequence of reduced capacity since the match director seems fond of throwing mandatory reloads in to stage design. I wanted to tinker with an open gun. Regardless of how many people do it, I wasn't real comfortable loading 9 to make major. I have everything I needed to load 40. I didn't want to have the added expense of setting up to load 38 super. I have a Tanfo in 9mm that I have grown quite find of so I am comfortable with the platform. I race motorcycles too which takes up my weekend time and money budget

  3. 4 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

    Just curious   .....     WHY a .40 Major?

    I enjoy shooting my local outlaw matches on Thursday nights. At this time I really have no aspirations more serious than that. Most stages can be run without consequence of reduced capacity since the match director seems fond of throwing mandatory reloads in to stage design. I wanted to tinker with an open gun. Regardless of how many people do it, I wasn't real comfortable loading 9 to make major. I have everything I needed to load 40. I didn't want to have the added expense of setting up to load 38 super. I have a Tanfo in 9mm that I have grown quite find of so I am comfortable with the platform. I race motorcycles too which takes up my weekend time and money budget. I suppose if I decide to thin my current herd of 3 motorcycles in the garage I may end up with a 38 super and aspirations of big matches.

  4. 1 hour ago, kneelingatlas said:

     

    Yes, there is a point of diminishing returns.

     

    A book load listing more pressure does not necessarily produce more down force with the comp (the pressure drops faster with faster burning powders as the volume behind the bullet increases).

     

    Yes, the noise comes from burning powder exiting the barrel.

     

    No, you're not the only one :cheers:

     

    Like you said, your setup is unconventional in a number of ways, so  you won't see the same results as others shooting Open guns with:

    -smaller bores

    -fewer holes

    -better comps

     

    There's no nice was to say it: the comp on the V12 Gold Team is terrible.  Comps serve two functions:  to divert gasses upward, reducing the "muzzle flip", and to provide a bearing surface to catch gasses and pull the gun forward, reducing the "slap in the hand".  The two tiny ports in the V12 comp don't do a very good job of either, made worse by drilling 0.420" holes in the baffles.  The majority of the down force comes from the 12 ports in the barrel which do very little to mitigate that "slap in the hand".

     

    Given all that you may find a different balance between muzzle flip, noise, and violence than someone shooting a 9mm or 38 super with a better comp and fewer holes.

     

    If I were in your situation my focus would be on predictable dot movement, I suspect your fastest times will come not from your flattest load, but the one which allows you to watch the dot lift and gets it back on target fastest.  Hint: springs and firing pin stop angle will do as much to that end as will the powder or bullet weight.

     

    Thanks for your insight. Kinda reinforces what I've been finding through my experimentation, especially after really looking at other comps and noting that they are mostly WAY different than the Gold Team comp. I feel like I'm getting real close to where I want it to be but it's just so far from conventional.  But taking in to account the fact that my set up is like a special unicorn, it's starting to make sense.

     

  5. 13 minutes ago, js1130146 said:

     

    And he's got a Tanfo Gold Team V12 which is the loudest and most obnoxious open gun you can get

    I'm not sure, I think I read somewhere that Tanfoglio is Italian for "we hear you"

  6. 26 minutes ago, drewbeck said:

    I would say that by using .40 for open you are outside the bounds of "conventional wisdom" and discussions regarding open reloading in general.  Key factors that contribute to this is the fact that the majority of open guns are built in .38 or 9mm based on the fact that .40 is at a disadvantage of mag capacity size limitations that WILL cost a person time over the course of a match.  Maybe not every stage or even that much time but there will be opportunities that someone can exploit or have less risk in a stage that will impact their match score.  This fact pushes people to .38/9 variants.  If there was a 20rnd mag limit in open, I think you'd see a lot more .40 shooters but since there isn't a mag limit we get forced into .38/9mm

     

    So now we have to work within the .38/9mm case limitations and the requirements of making power factor and keeping loads within length limits that fit magazines.  .38 has far less limitations from a reloading stand point as the larger case capacity is easier to work withing the pressure limitations of the case.  However, 9mm is a much smaller case and to achieve PF you have to deliver a smaller bullet within a totally different velocity range than a typical .40 heavier bullet would require.

     

    So then you get into how to do this within the pressure limits of the case.  Reducing the volume, increases increases the pressure (think balloon) if everything else remains constant.  Bigger bullets decrease case capacity which increases pressure developed from a specific weight load.  Increasing pressure will increase velocity up and to the point that the pressure is too great for the case to handle the spike as the powder burns.  If the spike is too fast this increase in pressure overcomes the strength limits of the case quicker than the time it takes to relieve the pressure spike of ignition.  The pressure spike is reduced back to zero by increasing the volume of the case which happens as the bullet leaves the case and continues to decrease as the bullet leaves the barrel.

     

    So to the way to push smaller bullets to higher velocities, we have to overcome and decrease the initial pressure spike from ignition to be within safe limits.  To do that, you have to slow the burn rate down so it burns and develops pressure slower and continues to develop pressure for a longer period of time than a fast powder would.  As the bullet starts moving, volume is increasing as the powder is still developing pressure which allows for a higher amount of total developed energy while still working within a more confined starting point.

     

    What this really means is that the majority of open shooters are forced into a very small range of possible options that meet all required criteria of playing the game.  With .40, you are at a huge advantage of options and choices for what you can try and find works best for you.  More gas works the comp better but comp design efficiency is also a big part of that equation.  

     

    I'd say you're a pioneer and there hasn't been nearly the focused effort on determing the ideal setup in .40 like there has in .38/9mm so do whatever feels best to you.  The other thing is people saying fast powders won't work the comp just isn't true.  The comp is used to focus the release of energy in a way that offsets a force so you get the most benefit from all the energy developed.  Most comps are designed to maximize the use of larger volumes of gas because that larger volume of gas is developed by the requirement of getting the velocity needed to make major.  What this really means is that most open comps won't work on less gas because they were never intended to do so.  Looking at comp designs that were developed for different pressure requirements, there are comps that will work, we just don't use them because they don't work with the crap ton of gas we develop as a byproduct of making major velocities. 

     

    I think WST would be awesome recoil feel with 180's if you can find a comp to maximize the use of the small volume of gas being developed

     

     

     

    Thanks for the inspiration on the Pioneer front. You may be on to something about conventional wisdom not applying to my journey. There is not nearly the treasure trove of information available for loading open 40 that there is for 38/9. It also seems that there's a lot of tinkerers who spend a lot of time and effort creating a perfect compensator to work with the load they want to shoot. My approach has been to find the load that works for the comp I have. And...the journey continues.

  7. 6 minutes ago, Open1215 said:

    That's because wsf is a fast powder. It's not generating enough gas to work the comp. It's the opposite of loading soft for non comped guns. No comp, heavy bullet, fast powder. Clays, wsf n so on. With the comp you need a light bullet and sloooow powder. I loaded 10++ Vv N105 under a 115g bullet for supercomp. 8.4g VV 3n38 for 9mm. Both are pretty slow powders and full cases. It's going to be very loud (double plug) and you will have to work up a load that works for your gun.

    Get some slow powder and try it with the lightest bullet you have. Do a load ladder. You will find the more powder the less rise in the barrel. It's reverse logic. The cup pressure is just pressure acting on the bullet not gas pushing on the comp

    Sent from my SM-J700T1 using Tapatalk
     

    I tried WSF because the Tanfo has all those ports in the barrel. The logic is to go a little faster to get the bullet moving before I hit the ports and start bleeding pressure. I'm not sure I'd put in the same group as Clays? Clays is #9 on my burn rate chart and WSF comes in at 37. Autocomp is 43, 3N38 is 48.

  8. 1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

    It's not the slower powders that does it, it's the higher charge weight you use. The gas being made is directly proportional to the charge weight of the powder you have loaded the case to. The slower powders are just more dense, and therefore weigh more than the same volume of a less dense powder. 

     

    Open guns are loud. There is no such thing as a quiet open gun.

     

    Take your WSF load with the 165 bullet...drop that to a 135 grain bullet and what is the CUP pressure? At the same charge weight, it will be substantially lower. You are comparing apples to oranges...

    I see what you're saying with the same charge and two different bullet weights...

     

    I guess what path I'm going down is thinking same powder and different weights to make major... for instance with WSF. I can get major PF in a 165g bullet with 6.1g of powder. If I go down to a 135g bullet I'm going to be running something like 7.5-7.6g of powder. I am finding the recoil impulse much more pronounced with little perceived difference in muzzle rise. Not to mention the accompanying shock wave that follows. That's where I question the point of diminishing return.

  9. Being new to open, I'm actively sponging as much wisdom as I can from the folks who have been doing it longer than me. I'm hoping someone can shed some light about gunpowder and how it relates to the way a compensated pistol shoots. From what one can easily gather, the general opinion is slow powder + light bullet = magic. Full disclosure here, I'm shooting a Tanfo Gold Team in 40S&W so that changes the dynamic somewhat on the specifics of load recipe but the concept remains the same.. Make major + Shoot flat = Happy shooter!

    I have about 1500 rounds out the snout of my gun, a whole bunch of which are over the top of a chrono with different powders and bullet weights in search of "THE ONE". Since I am shooting a "40 in OPEN" and it's "NOT a 2011" my approach is clearly unorthodox, but I'm having fun learning and I like to tinker.

    Without getting overly specific I want to share my impressions and maybe some of you wily veterans can help me make light of my observations. I've tried loads with 6 different powders in varying weights and 3 different bullet weights.

    In spite of conventional wisdom I have found that with the lighter bullets and slower powders I do not like the recoil impulse and I find the loads obnoxiously loud.

    Heavier bullets with faster powder (my go to load for my non comped gun) shoot almost like my limited gun.

    But heavier bullets with a powder that falls somewhere in between (WSF to be exact) seem to be my happy place.

     

    All that said... On to the question(s)

     

    Let's take 2 loads right from Hodgdon's load data and compare:

     

    135g bullet, 8.0g Winchester AutoComp lists 26,600cup pressure

    165g bullet, 6.1g Winchester WSF lists 27,600cup pressure

     

    Both loads just barely squeak in to major PF to the best of my recollection. I'd have to look at my spread sheet again to verify. When shooting these loads, The Autocomp load was obnoxiously loud and the recoil was much more stout. Muzzle flip feels about the same with the WSF load but I didn't video and watch in slow motion (yet) to verify my suspicions. The WSF load is much kinder to both my hands and ears. The general consensus of opinion says Autocomp would make "more gas to run the comp" but according to the specs it makes less pressure. All things being equal (same barrel length and diameter) isn't the comp essentially just redirecting the gas pressure in a different direction to obtain the desired result of less felt recoil and muzzle rise?

    Is there a point of diminishing return with the slower powder? In other words, am I just needlessly using more powder to get the same pressure gas to exit the comp?

    Does that obnoxious noise come from the slower powder still burning as it is being vented out the comp?

    Am I the only guy in the world who lays in bed at night wondering these things?

     

    Thanks for reading through my rambling thoughts and any insight would be appreciated.

  10. I got in touch with Bill at Higher Capacity about a big stick for my gold team in 40s&w. Nobody lists 170mm new in 40. I sent him 4 complete mags last Monday and today I had 2 big sticks waiting for me when I got home from work. 9 days turnaround with shipping. I'm pretty excited to see how they run. He sent them back with grams springs in them too. 

  11. I have a Gold Team in .40. Love the gun so far, have about 1500 trouble free rounds down the pipe. Never really put much thought in to it before but I was at my local Thursday night match and after I finished a stage the guy picking up brass looked at me and said "How the hell does your gun throw the brass forward?" Since I'm the only outcast who shoots a Tanfo out there on Thursdays I really don't have anybody to ask. Do you other guys have this same thing going on or am I a special case? If this is not normal does anybody know what I should be doing to resolve it?

  12. My multi-purpose bench top has served me well for 10 years at this point although it is due for perhaps a sand and refinish. I mounted some cabinets to the wall in the garage then I went to Home Depot and bought a 4'X8' sheet of 3/4" pressboard had them cut it in half (2'X8') laid the 2 pieces on top and fastened to the cabinets. I put a coat of urethane sealer on top, caulked the back edge to the wall, and fastened a piece of aluminum angle to the front edge. Since It's not a dedicated loading bench I mounted my press to a 12" long 4x4 and just clamp it in my vise when I load.  I have a solid bench that has taken every bit of abuse I have thrown at it for a decade.

    IMG_1480-2.jpg

  13. Quote

    ok... so I have a question. How do you keep your magwell from walking around? I just got a Gold Team a couple weeks ago and it just knocked everything loose the first day. I went thorough and squirted loc-tite on everything that rattled loose the first 2 range sessions (C-more mount, grip panels, slide racker and magwell) Everything stayed in place but the damn magwell tonight. Wondering if I'm the only one or if there's a secret.

     

  14. 5 hours ago, highhope said:

    I tried, not so easy to remove that finish.........

    I have used easy off oven cleaner to remove anodizing from bicycle rims with good results... It may just work on base pads too

  15. Just to be clear... Especially as a noob around here. I replied to the op simply with my experience with a very entry level open gun he expressed some interest in. I was reluctant to admit that it happens to be in .40 cal because I have seen the general disdain for open guns of that caliber in the past. It wasn't my intention to set off a day and a half of debate on the subject.

  16. 26 minutes ago, 3djedi said:

     

     


    Interesting....... I wonder why .40 is not used much in open. Can't but just be the round count, right? Seems like it would produce plenty of gas to work the comp. Plus safer to load ammo. Kind of seems ideal for a guy that shoots limited and just wants to get his feet wet in open.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
     

     

     

    That was exactly my thought... And why I landed there. I didn't want to have to get into loading another caliber with 38 super. And looking at what it takes to run 9 major ... Frankly kinda scares me.

  17. 34 minutes ago, 3djedi said:

     


    Is it in 9mm? And are you talking about minor loads?

    I really like the gold team myself! Cool looking gun!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
     

     

    Dare I say out loud that it's a .40. It was the first trip out with a brand new gun and chronograph so I shot my go to plinker load with my old gun to get familiar with the chrono and software before I shot anything out of my gold team. I shot a magazine of that same ammo for comparison sake out of the gold team before I started working through my new loads. Came in at a pf142. 

    What I can tell you is that out of the box, the gun cycled everything I put through it that first day with zero trouble from a pf133 to a pf172. And I was able to make major pf fairly handy with published load data. 

    Now I'll go back to the special island for people that shoot open with a .40

  18. On 2/18/2017 at 6:03 PM, 3djedi said:

     

     


    Thanks....... nope never tried a TS. Had a elite limited that was nice. I like the look of the EAA Gold Team but all those holes scare me a little lol.

    Do 9mm 124g coated blue bullets work for 9mm major? Have a bunch of those already. Also have about 18lbs of CFE Pistol sitting here. I was hoping those two would work for the time being.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
     

    Being brand new to open guns myself I can't add a whole lot to the comparison between 2011 and CZ and Tanfo or short vs long .... BUT... like you,  I liked the looks of the gold team. I bought one last week because darn it I like the way they look and my accountant said I could!
    After cooking up some loads and running them over the chronograph... the difference  between my 5" 1911 and the Gold team with identical loads was 50 FPS. All those holes didn't have nearly the effect that I initially thought they would.

  19. 3 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

    Welcome aboard :)

     

    What reloader did you buy?

     

    p.s.   OPEN is  F U N.    9mm or .38 super?

    Thanks guys... I have a Dillon SDB that I've had for a little over 20 years. The last year or has certainly seen an up tick in use. 

    I actually got a .40 (I know I know) but I figured since I didn't get a 2011 I might as well go full rogue. I have a whole lot of learning to do before that extra few rounds in the mag will hold me back.

  20. Hi All!

    Been lurking around for a while now, decided to finally make it official. Started shooting competition last summer out at Ben Avery with the Cactus Combat guys. Mostly the Thursday night shoots but have also shot a couple of the Sunday steel challenges and a USPSA classifier. I have been shooting Limited with my Glock 17, Tanfo Witness in 9mm and a RIA 1911a2 in 40. I just couldn't take it any more and I drank the kool-aid... I picked up a Tanfo Gold team so I can play in the open class. Now I gotta got out to the bench and start putting some loads together and see what I can make work!

     

    Chad

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