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Sauernut

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Posts posted by Sauernut

    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    http://www.doublealpha.biz/bulletfeeder/powder-funnel

    Try the above referenced powder funnel die. It creates more of a pocket for the bullet to sit in. The bullet remains vertical with no tilting from side to side. When I switched to coated bullets it was recommended to me by those more knowledgeable than myself. I have not had any problems with reloading coated bullets using this powder funnel die.

    Thanks for this, I will give it a try.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    Just had a random thought, did you wet tumble your brass? I'm wondering if that could have caused the issue we are both seeing.

    No, dry media only. The only time I see burrs on case mouths is when I trim rifle rounds. I wonder if the place I am buying brass from is trimming 40 S&W?

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    I just ran some thru my 550 as fast I could turn the shell plate and seat a bullet.

    I use a Lee "U" die as the sizing die and dillon for the seating and taper crimp.

    I got no shaving, I even ran some unsized as cast 200's and same result.

    I measured the case mouth and after leaving the powder drop it measures .438

    Thanks a bunch for all your help. None of my problems were the fault of the bullet. See my post. I guess I'm getting a lot of once-fired brass with edges too sharp on the inside. After reaming, I am able to load quickly without damage.

    Since the ID of the Dillon seating die is 0.430, it will swage the 0.438 flare down to that anyway so I set the flare to 0.429 which is still plenty as long as there is no sharp edge on the inside of the case mouth.

    I'll be giving you a call to order another 2200 of these tomorrow!

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    I'm having the same issue with Bayou 147 gr 9mm. If I take my time to seat it just perfectly, then it won't dig into the lead. Otherwise, it will cut lead and coating from the top side of the lube groove. Using Dillon dies on my 550. I've experimented with the bell size from absolute minimum out to way too big. I'm at a loss as well. I have no such problem with the 124 gr Bayou bullets.

    Try reaming the inside of the case mouth. If you are buying once-fired brass from the same place I am, this may solve your problem...it did mine.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    I originally had the same problem when I started using 9mm Bayou 160gr bullets... I was purchasing brass at the time and found out that for some reason there was a sharp edge on the inside of the mouth of the brass. Using a Redding deburring tool helpped greatly. Ultimately, I changed to a different brass supplier and the problem went away. Here is the deburring tool I bought.

    http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1443

    I also found that using case lube seemed to help in my situation. I use One Shot, but I suspect any case lube would be better than none.

    The two solutions above are a bit beyond the normal suggestions for this problem. I waited to see if you could resolve the problems using mechanical options before posting them. They are what helpped me in a similar situation. I also have a thread about this here on BEnos...

    My current setup (1050) is a Lee carbide sizing die - standard Lee sizing die, not their uDie - and a Redding competition seating die. I like the Redding competition seating die because it seems to keep the bullet straighter and is, of course, much easier to adjust for different OALs.

    Currently I get very few rounds with shaved lead in them... maybe one in 200 rounds or so. I just chalk that up to not holding the bullet straight when I pull the handle.

    I measured the ID of the Dillon seating die and found it was 0.430 because I noticed that the flare was less coming out of the seating die...basically it was about 0.430 ... makes perfect sense! So I set the powder die funnel to give me a 0.429 flare. This did improve things but still was getting a damaged bullet about every 5 (2 out of 10).

    Decided to try RaylanGivens suggestion and reamed the inside of several cases and dropped them in the case feeder. This solved the problem completely as I was able to load about 100 rounds without an issue. It will take a little extra time for case prep but still not as bad as rifle cases.

    I sure Thank everyone for all the suggestions and help in this thread! I also Thank Donnie at Bayou Bullets for all of his efforts to help. He took the extra effort to load a bunch of these 200 gr. RN's trying to duplicate the problem I was having. It looks like I must be buying the wrong once-fired brass and no one else is! It is sure a comfort to know that there is help readily available in this sport though. Thanks everyone!

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    u9aqe2az.jpg

    ynasejad.jpg

    Ok, set the flare to give 0.438 at the rim. Placed bullet carefully to be level, pulled the handle, and got the first photo.

    Pulled the bullet to show the second photo.

    Close examination of the inside of the case mouth shows smooth, nothing to scrape the bullet.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted · Edited by Sauernut

    Not all tumbling is the result of improper crimp. Did you post the load your using? Tumbling can also be the barrel or your pushing the bullets to slow. Have you chrono'd your load?

    I have loaded several different 180-200gn coated on a 650 with just about every popular die configuration.

    The crimp is not the issue. The issue is the coating and lead that is being pushed up around the case mouth (inside the bell) during bullet seating.

    The load is Bayou 200 gr. RN @1.182 OAL on top of 3.9 gr. of VV N320 - Avg Chrono (20 rnds) is 840 GPS

    The bullet is being damaged during the station 4 seating. I can see lead and coating inside the case bell. I believe the bullet is tumbling due to this damage.

    I have found that if I take several seconds to make sure the bullet is exactly level I can get a bullet seated without damage. At this point, I may as well break out the single station press for only this bullet. No such problems when I load lead, plated, FMJ, 9mm, 45 ACP, or 223 on the Dillon 650.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    What dies are you using? I am using all Dillon dies but the seating die is Redding competition. I am wondering if the sizing die is making the neck of the case too small. The neck is about 0.39 after sizing but the belling funnel does widen the neck to 0.40. With a 0.020 bell, the bullet base drops into the case about 0.12 which is plenty. But even so, lead appears when the bullet seats.

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    Actually it's quite possible. You could be belling to an extent that the sizing die is squeezing the case down as it goes in the Redding seating die. Redding has their roots in benchrest and they just seem to keep their stuff on the tight side of things. I had to send in a Profile Crimp die to be enlarged because it was swaging the brass down with a cast bullet which usually run .001 bigger than a jacketed. Their CS was great and they had me send the die, 6 bullets, and 6 cases and they would make it work. They did. When discussing it with them all the measurements showed that it should work and they admitted that they really are intended for jacketed, but should work with a .001" over cast bullet. I had them take out .001" and it works fantastic now.

    If you feel any resistance at all as a sized case enters the seating die that is probably what's going on, it should slide in with no resistance or contact at all.

    Good stuff. Unfortunately I have tried the Dillon seating die instead to the Redding. The Dillon was about 0.420 inside dimension so it does not affect the bell at all. It does a better job but still I get lead pushing up inside the bell of the un-crimped case about every 5 or 6 rounds. I pull the bullet and see that the coating and some lead have been scraped upwards from the bullet base on a small area on only one side of the bullet.

    The XL650 is a 5 station progressive so there is always some pressure each stroke from the sizing die in station 1. But I am able to feel what I think is increased pressure whenever a bullet is being damaged in station 4. I do not use a bullet feeder, just by hand trying to set the bullet level in the case bell the best I can. It seems like the only answer is that the case internal diameter is ending up too small for the Bayou 200 gr. RN bullet in some instances, but not all.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    Might try resetting your powder measure / belling die to the least amount to get the bullet in.

    I load 200 bayou's and thats the way my 550 is set up and the bullets are very accurate.

    Might be worth a try

    I have reduced the amount of case bell to the point where the bevel on the base of the bullet rests very slightly within the bell. This is pretty much the setting I started with for the Bayou 200 gr. RN's. I also measured the internal dimension of the seating die and found the Redding to be slightly less than the Dillon seating die so I have put the Dillon seating die on station 4. The combination of these actions has caused a reduction in the frequency that I detect lead showing at the case mouth within the bell, but it has not completely alleviated it. The instructions for both the Dillon and the Redding seating die's say that these dies do not provide any crimp and that a crimp should be done on the next station which is exactly my set up.

    What is a little confusing is that the powder measure funnel actually expands the case mouth internal dimension to about 0.399 below the bell and the bullet itself is only 0.400. Sure seems like this would be sufficient and not too tight to damage the bullet coating or push lead up but that is sure what is happening. The bullets do vary in diameter very slightly but only about 0.001.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    Sauernut- you wrote, "These loads are tumbling so I need to solve this issue." I personally don't tumble (clean in vibratory case cleaner) completed cartridges, but I know some guys do.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist making the feeble joke. Seriously though, are you using cardboard behind the target paper? I've read here that just stapling the paper target to the wooden target frame can make it look like the bullets are keyholing or tumbling. Good luck.

    LOL, I actually do tumble completed cartridges to get the case lube off but that I only use on rifle rounds.

    I think I have seen what you are talking about. But in this case I get nice round holes shooting Montana Gold 180's at the same set up. Exposing lead is not going to work well in the rifling unless the whole lead bullet surface is evenly in contact. I can tell that these rounds I am loading are not removing the coating evenly and neither shaving the lead evenly. I'll pull a few this evening after I check to make sure the seating die is not crimping the case in station 4. Station 5 is the intended crimp die. Thanks for the ideas!

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    Is your seating die also crimping at the same time? Other than not belling the case enough this is the only thing I know of that would case you to see lead and coating when seating the bullets. Over crimping will cause key holing but you need to get your first problem solved first.

    I will check to see if the seating die is crimping. If it is, it is not to the point of bringing the case mouth edge in contact with the bullet but it might be removing some of the bell. The intended crimp is at the next station and that is set to only remove the bell.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    FWIW, I can confirm that 200gr SNS (same bullet profile, same coating formula I'm told) in my trusty old single stage loads with no cutting of the coating or lead at all.

    I know that doesn't help solve your problem with the 650, but it's a vote of confidence for the durability of the coating. I don't think I over-bell the brass. The test I use when adjusting that die is to put just enough flare on the brass that I can pick up the brass with one of the intended bullets.

    What dies are you using? I am using all Dillon dies but the seating die is Redding competition. I am wondering if the sizing die is making the neck of the case too small. The neck is about 0.39 after sizing but the belling funnel does widen the neck to 0.40. With a 0.020 bell, the bullet base drops into the case about 0.12 which is plenty. But even so, lead appears when the bullet seats.

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    200 gr Bayou Bullet keyhole

    in 10mm/40 Caliber

    Posted

    I am loading these 40 S&W on a Dillon 650 using the standard Dillon powder drop and case bell. I am seeing lead and coating being scraped off the bullet during seating (1.182 coal). I have experimented with several belling diameters but this is not the cause. Material is often seen after bullet seating regardless of the amount of belling on the case mouth. The Bayou 200gr RN is right at 0.40 and seems to be unable to be seated in a sized and belled case without material being remove.

    These loads are tumbling so I need to solve this issue.

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