[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

5 minutes ago, ReconNav said:

That was NOT my experience in Stoeger's  class.  I was one of the worst shooters in the class.  One guy was less accurate than me, but faster in gun handling and movement, and one was slower than me, but a little more accurate than me.  All of us, including the three of us at the bottom of the class, got the same amount of attention from Stoeger, and he was excellent at tailoring the instruction to what each person needed.  

 

I was skeptical about taking the class, because of his rep, but some people I trust told me to ignore the rep, and just take the class.  I left very impressed with how well he ran that class, and came away with a couple of very valuable things that CHA-LEE calls, "solid nuggets," that were well worth the time, ammo, and money spent.

 

 

Good to know thanks

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

2 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

I have taken two classes.  Both about 3 days. Both teachers were very good.

A few years later I was at Taran's range.  He said, "We got all kinds of things to fix here."

I have been a squad mom for multiple super squads. 

Every GM I have met can pick out minor things that make huge differences in your technique.

 

Nothing beats a GM who is a great teacher.  

5 days is too long.  

  good info

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

19 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Ammo or Class $?

 

The answer is both.

Dry Fire will improve gun handling skills, but if you throw Ms and Ds all the time it won't make you an M.

 

Every M/GM I know sent a lot of stuff down range.

 

What classes will do is answer the questions about how to practice for matches.

 

Each instructor has their own strengths, but unless one actually practices what they are taught with live and dry fire, it will only marginally improve your match day.

 

I've asked multiple National and world level GMs and they all said the same thing about ammo, you have to practice the skills with live fire, confirming what was practiced in dry. I would guess on average they went through at least 50K rounds a year, mostly in practice.

 

The question really is how big a budget of practice time are shooters willing to commit to improvement? 

 

I took Steve Anderson's Mental Management class (it was worth the money) and he starts with the idea, "what's the payoff for doing this?"

 

 

Thanns 

 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

22 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

https://www.andersonshooting.com/

https://jjracazatraining.com/

 

Thanks 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

1 minute ago, Part_time_redneck said:

OP. If you’re still on the fence here’s a suggestion. I’ve taken Steve’s & JJ’s classes and they were both great. Different but great. As far as bang for the buck you may look into Anderson’s online Mental Management course. I took it a few years ago and doubt much has changed. It was $250 I think but well worth it. Not the hands on, gun handling type of instruction you were referring to but still, well worth the time / money investment. You may only come away with 2-3 things that really help but some of the easiest low hanging fruit to grab. Just a suggestion. 
 

Have a great day 

-PTR

Thanks for the info i will look into it. 

 

Who are steve and jj? 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

12 minutes ago, old558 said:

Have you tried Forest Lake Sportsmen Club or  St Cloud Area Practical Shooters Association! Both are great Clubs and worth a look.

 

I have not but will have to check them out i know Minnetonka also has a wed night uspsa league im going to try and make that one more this year. They have some GM shooters i could probably observe and shoot with. 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

My advice would be to start attending matches other than your own match that you run and win. Get a feel for how the local "pros" are shooting and what you need to work on. If any of them offer some coaching on the side, book a day with them, otherwise, find a USPSA oriented instructor to get you started.  As others have said, Ben Stoeger has a bunch of media on his youtube page, some are clips of his full classes, some are just rants. Filter out the good stuff (it's very good) and avoid the range politics and his content is terrific. 

Once you know what do practice and how, dry fire 10-15 minutes a day. You don't need to spend 2 hours daily doing this. If you are gripping the gun hard and properly your hands will be sore after 15 minutes. 

 

Where are you located?

Live in zimmerman MN work in coon rapaids MN

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

Well the stoeger books were reccamended and i already have them now so im going to give them a try but thanks all for the input.

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

56 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Here are some things to consider.....

 

1 - We can only absorb a finite amount of training content within a single training session. The quantity of what can be effectively absorbed is WAY LESS than what many people think. When I attend classes, if I come away from it with 2 - 3 solid "Nuggets" of content that I can take home and beat up in my own practice that is a WIN. 

 

2 - Learning how to Learn is way more important than being spoon fed Training Content. Training Content will go in one year and out the other shortly after the class if you don't have a solid process defined on how to implement what was learned. If you don't know what is needed to teach yourself something, then expecting someone else to magically do it for you isn't going turn out well in the long run. Learning how to Learn is a Skill in of itself. Master it.

 

3 - Every round you shoot or dry fire rep you perform SHOULD have a measurable Success/Fail outcome. Force yourself to make every round/rep count and be of value. I see a bunch of people take classes where they shoot 1000-2000 rounds but 90% or more of that ammo was wasted because they are "Mindlessly Blasting" through the drills. Treat each round as if it cost $10. That should change your mindset on making each round "Count". Also realize that X quantity of ammo shot doesn't automatically translate to X quantity of skill or knowledge gained. There are a TON of people that shoot a lot of ammo in practice yet fail to yield long term skill improvement from that time/ammo investment. The gun going BOOM doesn't guarantee success.

 

4 - People usually undervalue Training Content or Classes vs Guns/Ammo/Gear. When I attend a match and look at my competitors. I am not worried about the dude with a $5000 gun on his hip and $500 worth of Training consumed. I am worried about the dude that has a $500 gun and has effectively invested $5000 into their Training. Its hard to beat it into peoples minds that the Shiny New gun they want isn't going to "Fix" their poor skill set. At the end of the day its the Indian getting the job done and not the Arrow.

Your spot in the flashey gun guys at the matches ive been to are rarley the best. You cant buy skill it si earned through time and practice.  

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

2 hours ago, cautery said:

Oops... sorry.  Emanuel "Manny" Bragg.  GM, instructor, past office holder, EXCELLENT instructor, and just one helluva guy. 

Thanks for clarifying  

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

1 hour ago, DougCarden said:

I went to Bill Roger's class in the late 90s.  One of my shooting highlights in my LE career.  It is fast paced and they keep you moving all day, and you do gun handling and dry firing at night as well.  You WILL shoot a lot of ammo.  I was carrying a Beretta 92FS at the time in a security holster and it was a PITA as the 7 steel targets were at human reaction time.

IF you listen to them and use the concepts they teach you will improve immediately, and do well.  If you shoot with one eye closed it will be a long week, but I saw many people figure it out and improve quickly.

Military teams fly in and shoot for 10 days before deployment, so there is real world applications for what they teach there.  If you want to go, go.  Memories for a lifetime.  I treasure my Hat and Pin that I won there.

Having said that, I hosted and took two classes from Manny Bragg and got a lot of improvement from his drills and mindset.  Manny was much more, um, economical too.

If you are going to shoot and compete you will need to start reloading or make friends with someone that does.  Just a fact.  Dry fire does make a big difference as well.

Good luck,

Doug

Great feedback. Im going to start dry firing just ordered 2 ben stoger dry fire books and begin dry firing. Also i have the hornady lock n load ammo plant and plan to get it up and running soon. I know many prefer Dillon but i got the lock and load progressive free and added to it so thats what im going to run. Started reading the dry fire book last night and am excited to get practicing im going to start with 20-30 min a day and go from there as time permits. And i think i may still go check out the class in spring 2025 but we will see. Thanks all mike

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

2 minutes ago, cautery said:

$3k?  5 days?

I advise against both.

Bestest/fastest learning in a "class" I ever had was a 2-day class with Manny.  Don't remember how many rounds, but I was toast by the end, and still shooting 300% better....  for a while. 

Gotta practice EVERY DAY if you want to be better than good.
Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire...  Less than 1 in 10 pulls should be live... unless you just like making empty brass. 

My 2/100ths of a pretty piece of paper...  worth what you paid. 

Thanks for the info. Who is manny?   

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

18 minutes ago, JonasAberg said:

That's a lot of money for sure.

The bottom line seems to be - are you able to analyze your shooting/stage performance and adapt your training to become better? If you can do this yourself, you might not need classes. It does take more trial and error though, and having other people look at what you're doing can often give you fresh ideas and viewpoints.

Once you get to a certain level, it's definitely "diminishing returns on investment" and every % starts costing more time and effort, so you need to think about how much you're willing to invest.

 

Good input thanks

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

8 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

We did a 5 day TPC course in Utah.  Fun but you can only pick up so much.  Our best training $ ever spent was a 2 and 3 day private lesson with Steve Anderson a yr apart.

Ill have to look into this steve anderson several recommendations for him now thanks 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Id probably start with Ben Stoeger books and kind of go from there. 

 

I took one of his books a long time ago did just a little the  dry fire stuff in it and in no time at all I'd moved from B class to A class. Then I quit practicing and just hover around upper b lower a now

 

I'm sure if I would have put more into it I would have gotten more out of it, another guy I know used the same book to get to m class, then he kind of quit practicing and hangs out in the high a low m class now

 

Both of those examples show how it's not just getting the book or taking a class that matters it's what comes after that that will help you to improve

 

 

The reason I suggest going with a couple of books and reloading gear instead of a class at this point is because you can buy the books for 20 or so dollars and see if you're actually going to commit to doing the dry fire routines and other practice. If you go to a class and spend $500 to $3,000 and come home and don't put in any work off of what you learned in that class you're not going to get any better. Me being the cheap guy I am I want to know that I'm going to put forth the effort before I spend that kind of money

Good advise. I already own a hornady progressive press. But i will check out the books. 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

Buy a couple of dry fire books and movement books and a timer

 

By press and a bunch of components

 

Practice and dry firing and movement skills

 

Take a class in about a year or next time there's one close to you so you don't have as much tied up in travel etc

 

Even after you take the class, the dry fire books and press and components will be very useful

 

However, if you're not going to dry fire and live fire practice no class or books or press is going to help you get better

 

Good luck

You are all correct for sure about the dry fire and practice at home and i plan to i just need to figure out how to do it correctly.  Any reccamendations on dry fire routines? Books? Youtube vids? Thanks mike

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

17 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Any kind of good training is cool. But, in USPSA competition, a good bit of your time is spent not shooting . A competition oriented class would help you get more efficient in the non-shooting tasks. 

 

Good luck!

Chuck

Thanks 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

1 hour ago, xrayfk05 said:

Classes and training are great, it is a lot easier if someone tells you what you can improve on and how rather than finding it out yourself.  Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent! In other words you need to practice right.

That said, if you don't train and only shoot once a week you can take all the classes you can find but it will not help you much. You will need to train on and practice the things you learned at the classes, otherwise it is just wasted money. (Classes can be fun though, that can be reason enough to take one)

 

I would never take a $3000,- class and certainly not a 5 day one. 5 days is just too long to stay focused and either you get overloaded with info or it's a lot of repetition which you can do yourself for free.

 

I'm sure there are other options than just dropping 1000's of dollars on a single class, $500,- get you 8 hours of one-on-one time with Steve Anderson for example and I am sure there are other trainers that do the same. And that training will be specifically tailored to you.

There is also the option of a videocall or a video analysis for $50 to $100.- (Again at Anderson, but I think Tom Castro and Ben Stoeger have something similar)

Thanks for the response to clarify the class is $1400 the total of $3000 would include ammo and travel food ect... but i do agree it is still spendy.   I agree i need to practice at home but to be honest i feel like i dont really know how to practice effectively at home.  My thinking is from my research i find billrodgers shooting school to be the top of the line so i was thinking take a class i feel is top of the line and if i dont see the benifit never bother with a class again and if i see improvement then i would take other classes aswell. I figured to give training a fair shake take a good class. I will look into what you reccamended though

 Thanks mike

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

I run and shoot a weekly uspsa style shoot from may through sept then shoot less during the winter months. Of the 20 shooters that show weekly im usually 1 or 2 place. Im a decent shooter but ive never had any training ive just learned what i can from youtube vids ect...  my safety and basic gun handling i believe are sound. 

[Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?]

So i am an above average shooter with a fair amount of experience but i feel i have plateaued and would like to improve. So here is the question i currently ahoot 50-100 rounds live fire at least 1 time a week. Other than that i dont practice i know i need to pick up dry fire ect... but here is my question im looking at taking a pistol training corse at bil rodgers shooting school but its out of state so ball park the training and trip and ammo will probably cost me aprox $3,000 am i better off with the class or am i better off staying home and spending $3,000 on ammo and practicing. Class is 5 days classroom and live fire aprox 2500 rnds. Thanks for any input. And feel free to call me a dummy for not having dry fire practiced enough i know its free to do and will help i just havent made it a priority yet but am planning to.  Also anyone who has taken bill rodgers shooting class please give me your opinion. Thanks mike

[PRP trigger]

Got it in with no problems. Makes a huge difference. Shot my first steel match with it without practicing first. Worked great no problems at all.

Glad it went well for you im really enjoying mine aswell. I should have done it 9,000 rounds ago lol

[PRP trigger]

I bought the ultimate match target trigger kit that you need to fit if you can dissassemble and reassemble your gun and use a file you can handle it. It was easy and gives great results. Im by no means an expert but if you have any questions feel free to ask.

[XDM Would you buy one?]

I was a die hard all steel pistol fan and it was .45 or nothing. As ammo prices went up and my income went down shooting .45 as often as i wanted to shoot to get good was just not an option so i started looking for a 9mm pistol and was mostly looking cz. And stupid as it sounds had bad mouthed plastic pistols all my life (combat tuperware ect...) well i felt having never owned one and bad mouthing them i was a hipocrit so while i wanted a custom cz and could not get my hands on one at the time i decided to get an xdm 5.25 in 9mm to try out the plastic guns. So i could justify my calling them junk i figured i would test it hate it and sell it when i got a cz or another 1911 variant. I bought it cleaned the gun of all the factory crap and lubed it. Figured i would shoot it till it failed and then clean it. Well 1000 rounds in and it was still flawless so i cleaned it and repeated ...... so far 5550rnds throught it with only 2 failures and both were bad ammo 1light charge did not fully cycle the slide and one deformed bullet would not chamber. Well i was wrong about plastic guns and the xdm in perticular. Never did buy the cz and i love my xdm. It has been the most accurate reliable fun to shoot pistol i have ever tryed. Also most of my friends shoot it better then they can shoot their own guns it shoots easy and will make you look good. Sorry about the long story but thats my story and i would tell anyone to buy an xdm you wont be sorry.[emoji2]