Randy Lee
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Posts posted by Randy Lee
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On 12/30/2020 at 5:41 PM, TheIceman93 said:
Thank you for the very detailed response. Unfortunately, us California serfs are banned from enjoying the benefits of the Shadow 1 and 2 trigger. That darn firing pin block in the B prevents us from getting a competition grade trigger. Sure, you could remove it but I'm pretty sure that is illegal in Production class.
Do you have any recommendations for additional mods for 75B series FPB equipped pistols beyond your kit?
What do you anticipate the SA pull weight will be for the upcoming competition hammer?
In the Shadow 2, the SA pull weight using a TriggerScan machine measured 2.75 lbs. If a lighter trigger return spring is used my guess is that it would be probably hover around 2.25-2.5 lbs. In the 75 B the factory FPB spring adds resistance and ups the pull weight.
Every so often a Shadow SP-01 slide shows up for sale. You can check with CZC or Cajun as they may have sources. One customer in CA I know of was able to get one and competes with it.
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On 1/4/2021 at 9:09 AM, MoRivera said:
Hi Randy...
So you're saying that if a Shadow/Shadow 2 is dropped, an extended firing pin can ignite a chambered round from inertia alone, regardless of whether the hammer is lowered or cocked?
That is correct. Couple it with a reduced power or cut firing pin spring and your chances go up even further.
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I can only speak to my preferences, as I am sure if you ask 100 other owners they will give you 100 different opinions. So here goes...
The CZ trigger system has many of the characteristics that I find desirable in a TDA pistol. Of all the pistols I own that are TDA, my CZs have the smoothest, lightest and most linear pull characteristics for the first DA shot. Since I come from the land of Smith revolvers, I am used to the DA and I guess I find it strangely familiar.
In competition, I can get aggressive with the DA on my draw stroke whereas I am usually more hesitant to do so with my 24 oz trigger pulls on my 2011s.
There is always an arms race for a gun with lighter/shorter faster resetting triggers. I think that is in part why Cajun and CZC are so popular (the quality of their parts is also part of their popularity). But for me, I see so many people get into trouble because they don't understand the performance or safety envelopes designed into the gun and then set the gun up so that it is running on the edge of safe operation. I have seen over travel stops/take up screws set so short that bump fires occur regularly. I have also seen people tweak on the sear face and hammer hooks to the point they burst fire. People like to tinker and like the 1911 fans, the CZ opens up the opportunity to tweak the gun to your liking-for better or worse.
If you are speaking specifically about setting up the gun for competition, then the Shadow/Pre-B sear and disconnectors have the advantage over the B series. The trigger bar will always have to travel farther forward in order to pick up the FPB lifter than the sear reset point and that can make for longer split times because of the increased take up.
On my current Shadow 2 and AO-1 I use our hammer and sear with the AO-1 using one of our prototype competition hammers. I set my over travel distance at about .020 so that the sear clears the drop safety ledge on the hammer and reduces the chances of bump firing the gun (the wall before the break also helps with this). I am using the factory disconnectors and I don't think there would be any advantage for me to run super short take up. I suspect that a good majority of shooters fall into my category too.
When I ran my SP-01 in Production, I was lucky enough to be friends with the head of product development at CZ-USA who sent me a Shadow slide. Back then CZC was the only game in town, so I ordered a pre-B sear, one of their disconnectors (I prefer the CZC disconnector because it uses the tandem ears like the factory, so the hammer tends to track more linearly along the centerline of the frame) and their hammer. This set up eliminated the FPB system and since the Shadow SP-01 was on the USPSA Production approved list I was golden.
The only problem was that due to the abundant leverage of the pivoting trigger system, my pull weight was about 1.25 lbs on the SA. The more trigger work I did on customer guns, the more I found that in tuning the DA to my liking, it was impossible to get a SA pull weight above 1.75 lbs. That's why I designed the hammer and sear engagements on our current kit. With all the tuning done, I was able to get a very stable AND drop safe 3 lb pull.
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It will be compatible with our sear. We will probably only sell the hammer to customers who call in. Once I have them back from the finishers, I can let you know that they are available.
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9 hours ago, TheIceman93 said:
Thank you for the reply Randy. I appreciate that you want to keep your customers as safe as possible and home smithing does have certain risks that should be mitigated if possible.
I would very much like to run the Cajun SRS1 kit with your hammer and sear. https://cajungunworks.com/product/srs-1-short-reset-system/
I'm currently running my SP01 in SAO but I'm thinking of going back to DA/SA.
The SRS1 does utilize an extended firing pin but it uses a short lifter arm to maintain the FPB safety feature. Would you say that it is ok to use an extended firing pin kit like this with your hammer and sear since the FPB is kept in place? It seems that most of your concerns are with ND's on CZ Shadow models that don't have FPB's or regular 75's with the FPB removed.
The SA break on your Apex kit is the best I've felt and I've shot CZ's with most of the high end trigger systems. The only think holding it back is the long SA reset and I'd like to fix that if possible without removing the PPB.
Thanks for your appreciation of our hammer/sear in the set. We will be releasing a kit with a new hammer that has the same feel but lighter SA release weight since we have had so many requests. That should be available sometime in March.
While I haven't tested our hammer and sear kit with the Cajun parts, if the FPB prevents the firing pin from protruding past the breechface when pressing on the back of the firing pin (have to always add the unloaded firearm part here) it should be safe. But again, the caveat is that we only drop test with our parts and not other aftermarket products.
I don't know if I have mentioned it here, but before we release any trigger kit it has to pass our drop test which stringent. We drop from 6 feet onto concrete in 27 different orientations.
If you do try the Cajun parts, please let me know how it turns out. There isn't anything that stands out in my mind that says it wouldn't work.
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3 hours ago, TheIceman93 said:
So I'm happily using the Apex kit in SAO in my SP01 but I am curious about removing the firing pin block from my gun to improve the reset. I asked Apex about it but the said they couldn't comment on removing the FPB because they never advise removing safety features. I understand this is for legal purposes and they don't want to get sued for accidental discharges.
So I'll ask everyone here. Any potential issues with removing the firing pin block from an Apex CZ? Is the sear and hammer engagement affected at all by the firing pin block? I just don't want to damage anything.
I love the feeling of the Apex SA break but I would like to shorten the reset. Since the Apex kit isn't compatible with extended firing pins, it seems the only way to improve the reset is by eliminating the firing pin block.
Randy, if you're reading this, please consider releasing a kit that is safe to use with extended firing pins so we can run CGW and CZC short reset kits with your sear and hammer.
Hi TheIceman,
We found that the liability for us is way too high to use or recommend an extended firing pin. In our tests, we have been able to replicate discharges of the gun dropped from 2 feet on a Shadow 2 due to inertia. This is with the hammer in all three positions - hammer down, safety notch and fully cocked. I only use the Shadow 2 as a reference because it has no FPB system like the B series has. Any Shadow or B series pistol where the FPB system is removed and an extended pin is installed can run the risk of this happening.
I also know of one individual who had an ND when he eased the hammer to the half cock position and used the trigger to drop the hammer the rest of the way down while making ready. This was with CCI Lawman ammunition, which isn't known to have overly sensitive primers.
You might be able to run Cajun or CZC short reset kits with our hammer and sear if you are using their FPB lifters and keeping the FPB safety system intact. The FPB lifter geometry made by both companies most likely will reduce the reset but maintain the safety function.
I do know of customers who have removed the FPB systems from their SP-01s in order to achieve the shortest reset and run their guns in competition. We as a manufacturer simply cannot recommend deactivating any factory safety devices. Hope this helps.
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Hello,
Sorry for the late reply as I haven't been on the forum as of late.
Bryce- you are correct. Our springs run roughly 11 and 12 lbs. You can definitely try running CZ Custom or Cajun springs of varying weights to get to your preferred DA/SA weight range.
As far as running an extended firing pin, we do not recommend it, especially when combined with a RP f/p spring. We have to drop test from 6 feet onto concrete, and without a f/p block a muzzle down drop can cause ignition even with a factory stock pistol. We have to err on the side of safety. While I don't expect competitors to drop their firearms for that height and in that precise orientation we have to take that into consideration.
When you run an extended firing pin, it increases the chances of a discharge from a lower height. Couple that with an RP return spring then you get into a range where it could be possible that the gun discharge from say the height of a holstered gun at a match even if the hammer does not strike the firing pin. To make matters worse, I have had a report from a shooter that had the gun discharge when he dropped the hammer from the half cock notch by pulling the trigger- using factory US made ammo. To me it is just not worth the risk.
-Randy
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Hello,
Yes our kit will work as a SAO by removing the disconnector. If your SP-01 is not a Shadow variant, just make sure that whatever trigger you use has the appropriate amount of pre-travel so that the trigger bar can move forward of the FPB lifter.
Thanks for running our kit!
-Randy
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Update: We are redesigning our Walther SF triggers so that they will be cross compatible with the polymer frames. During testing of the SF, the number one complaint was that our current PPQ trigger sits too far forward to be comfortable for pretty much all the testers who shot the pistol. I think it is related to the increased girth of the frame/grip on the SF.
I know it isn't what people wanted to hear, but there is no use selling a trigger kit that a majority of shooters won't like. I will try and update this thread as the project progresses.
We will also need to drop test the pistol from 6 feet onto concrete in 27 different orientations. Anyone know where I can get a used unwanted SF for that purpose?
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On 8/17/2019 at 6:00 AM, DCSigCZ said:
Thank you for the excellent explanations, Randy. I’d like to sample your system. I know you are in AZ, but are you going to be at any shows or other events in the Houston, TX area where folks can try your products in your booth or on a range? I mention the range because I know of two Country Club gun facilities (meaning VERY high end) in the area and hope there is a small chance they may invite you during a special range day try and buy event.
Hmmm... I know that the sample gun is on display this week at the NSSF Range- Retailer Expo, and we usually have it at the NRA Annual Meeting as well as this upcoming year at SHOT. If they invite us, we can definitely see what can be arranged.
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It will come with the trigger on a modified trigger bar, trigger return spring and a striker block spring.
That is assuming it passes our drop testing protocols.
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Our kit comes with 2 mainsprings. The one that was in the display S2 was 11+ lbs, while the purple spring is roughly a pound heavier.
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szhttm, we will do our best!
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We are currently working on bringing the new Q5 SF trigger kit to market. As some may have noticed, the trigger pull weights on the SF are typically heavier than the polymer frames.
This is an obstacle I needed to overcome since this gun in particular was designed for competition. We expect to release the new kit in early September.
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16 hours ago, Czgunsalot said:
Will this be compatible with other trigger parts from other companies.
example I have the cgw reach reduction kit
We haven't tested it with other parts as it opens up a whole can of worms in terms of liability for all parties involved.
Our kit was designed to work around the idea that the hammer should maintain maximum rearward travel to increase primer ignition. I believe the short reach systems may shorten the hammer arc which might reduce ignition for some types of ammunition.
What I can say is that I do not recommend extended firing pins with our kits.
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11 hours ago, Tok36 said:
Thank you for elaborating Randy. I have some questions.
I see that there are two different kits available for the Shadow 2 and the CZ75B. What is different about the two models that necessitates separate kits? I recognize there there is a sear width difference in a sear from a FPB model (75B) to a non-FPB (S2) model. Are there other differences than the width of the two sears that you offer? If not, was a spacer considered during the design possess so that one narrow sear could be used for both models?
If they are comparable to some of the other hammer spring available, what is the weight of the two different hammer springs that come with your kits? For clarity i am aware that a given hammer spring weight may not play the same with you parts as it dose with other available parts but i am still curious.
Is hand fitting of the new sear required to renew proper safety lever function with your kits?
Thank you for any input on the matter. I am always glad to see more CZ tuning parts on offer and i look forward to possibly experimenting with yours at some point.
Hi Tok,
Both the sear and hammer on the 75B kit are narrower. The sear needed to allow the fpb lifter, so that the inherent safety system could be preserved. A large percentage of our customers don't shoot competition but rather use their pistols for carry or self defense, so we opted to make the sears specific to each variant so that pistols with the FPB could maintain all factory safety values.
The 75B slides have a narrow window for the hammer than the Pre-B series. While we could have just made one hammer, I think the cosmetics would look odd as viewed from the rear with a narrow hammer in the wider window of the Shadow 2.
I personally don't like the use of a spacer in the sear cage and since it invites people to deactivate a factory safety, that would open up my company to unnecessary liability.
Our springs are roughly equivalent to an 11.5 mainspring and the heavier being about a lb heavier. Both CZ Custom and Cajun offer additional weights for people to try. For our testing the springs we provide offered us the best linear DA pull and SA weight range for a competition while maintaining reliable ignition with CCI primers. The heavier rated purple spring is included for carry or in case someone is using harder primers.
We designed the hammer and sear so that they should fit in most guns without the need to fit the safety or safety leg on the sear. That being said, we cannot anticipate all the tolerance stacking possibilities from gun to gun so there is always the possibility that dressing down either surface might be necessary. This should only require .001" - .002" of material removal.
This is assuming that the gun has the original safety as fitted by the factory.
-Randy
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I believe it might be time to shed a little light on the kits that I had a hand in designing. I also need to emphasize that the descriptions and function of our parts in one early post are absolutely wrong and were based upon pictures of our parts. I know this because our parts had not been released yet.
For a little background (since I assume most here do not know who I am) I started working on guns some 30 years ago, beginning with refining the DA on Smith revolvers. I believe that qualifies me to know what constitutes a good DA trigger pull. From there, the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power work I have done led me to understand what a good single action should feel like.
While trigger "feel" is subjective, it is a good place to start when you decide to engineer a fire control system. I use the term "system" because the hammer, sear, mainspring and firing pin spring were designed to work in conjunction with one another and in balance.
The CZ trigger system by design has tremendous mechanical advantage by design. That translates into the potential for very light DA and SA pulls. But that can sometimes get people into trouble-myself included. As I so poorly expressed in front of the camera, this is one of the reasons I wanted to make our kit.
We started the project by using a TriggerScan on a factory stock Shadow 2. The device digitally maps out force over the distance of the trigger stroke. It shows us exactly what is happening during both DA and SA pulls. This allowed us to set the geometry of the hammer to provide a very linear stroke in DA. So to say that our kit does nothing for the DA is incorrect.
Bringing up the pressure wall for single action is more complex that just raising the SA hooks or lowering the sear bedding surface. Doing so can often lead to timing issues especially when you consider tolerance stacking from gun to gun. The compound leverage of the pivoting trigger system tends to overcome the static holding force of the sear against the hammer hooks- especially if you want to maintain a 5 lb double action. The result is a spongy single action that is usually at the exact same weight as when you started. So again, information portrayed earlier about our hammer and sear geometries are inaccurate. Unless you have access to an optical comparator or an OMM like we do, you cannot see what we have done to achieve the increase in SA wall pressure. The hook and sear profiles are done by wire EDM so that the relationship between the two are not simple angles. The surfaces act more like fitted puzzle pieces than what you are used to seeing in a 1911 type hammer/sear relationship. It was the only way to reduce some of the compound advantage of the CZ trigger assembly without making the SA feel like crap. The SA actually feels good to me and suits my trigger prepping style as I can feel the defined break point.
In order for us to bring any trigger kit to market, it also has to pass our drop test which consists of dropping the gun from a height of 6 feet onto a concrete slab in 27 different orientations. In this case, it was painful to watch a Shadow 2 be dropped 54 times since it had to be dropped in DA and SA modes.
My final words are these: Both CZ Custom and CGW make excellent parts, and I am sure that many reading this are more than pleased with their parts. I consider Angus and Stuart over at CZ Custom friends. In fact, I just received my A01-LD which was hand delivered by Angus, and it is truly an exceptional pistol. I still order and install parts from both CZC and CGW into friend's pistols when they want the light DA/SA setup. We are just another option for those who want a light DA but slightly heavier SA.
-Randy
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Hi Quirk,
The barrels will fit, however they did change some of the slide dimensions so some additional fitting may be required.
If you look at the interior side walls of the slide where the ejection port is, you will see an appreciable step in the machining closer to the breech face. Our barrels run .600" nominally when you measure the width of the barrel's chamber area. With a tolerance of .003+/- that means our barrel will range between .597 and .603 wide in that area.
The M2.0 tightened up the spec where you see the step, so that .600 is the max width allowable. This means that you might have to sand or polish down the sides of our barrel by 0.002 on each side in order th let the barrel slip past the step.
The factory tightened up this spec to increase torque stabilization of their barrel, which helps improve consistency shot to shot thereby improving accuracy.
While there may be a bit more fitting required for our barrel in the 2.0, the tightening of the factory specs helps ensure that our barrel locks up consistently in the slide across their slide dimensional tolerance spectrum.
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Hi all,
We are still setting up shop and getting our tooling together. Making one or two is one thing, but making the slides in production numbers is a whole other ball of wax.
I will update you as soon as I have good news.
Thanks!
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On 11/12/2016 at 6:19 AM, RH45 said:
I bought a gunsmith-fit barrel, and had a local guy fit it. He's familiar with M&Ps, and welded up his barrel, and machined it to fit tighter, but, he said the Apex bbl he fitted for me is tighter yet.
It will not go in to battery, if you ease the slide forward, but, when shooting, it goes in to battery every time.
I went to the range yesterday, and put 50-100 rounds through it, off of sandbags. Even though it is more accurate than any factory barrel I've ever shot, I couldn't shoot a group under an inch. The closest I got, was with Zero, 125 grain, .356 jhps, with VV320 behind them, in once fired brass, with Federal match primers. 3 out of 5 were in a cloverleaf, one went high, opening the group to almost exactly an inch, and another went way over at 9 O'clock, opening the group to about 1 3/4".
My eyes aren't what they used to be, and I've found that on some days I just can't seem to shoot good groups with iron sights, like I used to, but, I had my Ruger MK II government along, and shot a sub-inch group with Blazer ammo, and the crappy, stock, Ruger trigger, which is what it always does, if I do my part, so, I'm thinking the fliers weren't me.
I'm hoping that after I shoot it more, it will settle in, and do better. I had zero malfunctions. All of the ammo I shot were handloads that I did the "plunk" test to make sure they weren't too long. Maybe I'll try shooting some groups with factory ammo, but, I really don't expect factory ammo to do as well, which is one of the reasons I handload.
Along with what others have mentioned, another thing you should check for is barrel springing. If you invert the slide and drop the barrel in, press on the bottom lug and see if the bottom lug springs back as you release finger pressure from the bottom lug. As the barrel heats up, the springing will affect group size, usually in the vertical axis but it can also show up as flyers.
If springing is present, you may need to have your gunsmith dress the top 12 o'clock position of the muzzle where it is making contact with the inner top of the slide's barrel channel.
-Randy
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Our slide development is in it's infancy, so you never know what might show up in the near future...
. There are a lot of new projects in the queue now that we are in a free state.
-Randy
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On 10/26/2016 at 9:59 AM, sheepdog said:
Guess there might not be enough demand for a 5 inch since the Pro and L are out there, but some of us with the standard size gun would love to have one, especially with the Apex barrel. Maybe with a reduction in Smith's generous tolerance between the slide and frame, if that is part of the plan....since finding a Smith 5 inch slide is tough.
Once we are in full operation in AZ, anything is possible... :-)
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5 hours ago, PacMan said:
Update on this project?
We are still in the testing phase as wea re still in the moving process.
I should be able to report back with an update around the holiday season.
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Maybe Smith will follow suit after our 6" slide hits the market next year...
Apex Tactical CZ Trigger Kit - SAO Trigger Compatible?
in CZ
Posted
There are many firearms that do not have FPB safety systems that fall into this category. That said, our own testing showed that the S2 with factory fp and spring were drop safe above 4 feet on concrete in the worst case orientation (muzzle down). From a competition perspective, average height of a holstered pistol is less than slightly less than 3 feet (muzzle). All I am saying is that you shift the probability range by using extended firing pins and reduced power f/p springs.