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Posts posted by doublealpha
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HI All,
My point is that we have all been lubing cases prior to reloading them for decades. Some use case lube, others use silicon or similar for this process.
You must agree that some small amounts of this case treatment enters into the primer pocket, right? (assuming deprimed brass of course).
So – my claim is that we have ALREADY been applying a little silicone to primers – without any ill affect. I therefore I don’t see what the concern is about.
I don’t think a theoretical concern can be considered valid (in other words, it remains unfounded) until there is some case study to prove it.
Saul
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1 hour ago, RePete said:
.Since I'm the one that initiated the possibility of contamination, how do you know that it's unfounded, you haven't tested longer term storage and use, only immediate.
I wish you luck with the product.
Because silicon spray has been used on brass for years during reloading (and other lubes), and I have never heard of a situation of “primer contamination” that prevents primers from functioning.
it is unfounded, because no evidence has been presented to support it is even a theoretical real issue. Have you ever heard of a case in which a primer failed to work because it was treated in the way I proposed? I have not.
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21 hours ago, Bmans45 said:
Seems like to me for 200 bucks and so much trouble I can save myself a lot of worry about working ammo with by sticking to my flip tray and 10 tubes to fill. Really you could load a lot of tubes while you are working on this thing and who knows if in 6 months your ammo is going to be contaminated . Sorry but I really wanted one but will have to pass .
I fully understand.
I have learnt long ago that you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
Not every product can be right for everyone.
Saul
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15 hours ago, kineteks said:
Saul, is the expected availability date of mid-February for the next production run still looking good?
We are starting assembly work on the next run now, and will commence shipping again in Europe around 3rd week of Feb.
stock will be sent to the USA later in February, probably last week of the month.
thanks
saul
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22 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:
Potentially contaminating the priming compound within the primers....
I’m not sure why anyone would assume this tiny amount of silicon could contaminate the priming compound?! This is unfounded. We all use case lube in much larger amounts, and don’t worry about that at all, since it is not an issue. Lubed cases loaded years ago function just fine. I know many reloaders that use silicon to lube cases too.
I am not proposing we submerge the primers in silicon, although I don’t know if even that would stop them from going off. But certainly the technique that I showed, rolling them around in a cardboard box which has some silicon on it would not contaminate them, IMHO. And it does make a world of difference to function with sticky primers, as some here have already tested and attest to.Give it a try!
Saul
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as promised, here is the video showing the treatment I did to the Tacky primers to get them to feed well through the Primer Pro:
Saul
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Indeed, very little silicone gets onto the primers in this manner. It seems just enough to overcome the tackiness of the “production lube” that is already on some primers.
the nice things is that it foregoes the need to clean the unit or take it apart. The primers themselves run some silicone into the tracks as they go through.
I shot 500 rounds this weekend which were loaded this way, and all the primers went BANG as expected. I don’t think there is any issue at all. I’d like to hear what other’s find after giving this a try. I think it works great!
Saul
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Guys,
I expect it will also improve the way these primers feed through the reloading press’s primer mechanism and cut down on primer seating issues too.
I will try to upload a video shortly.
Saul
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On 1/30/2020 at 11:34 AM, mikamarj said:
So I do need to get the machine also empty since I don't want to have any left-over rifle primers end up in the minor ammo. So sounds a bit bad design choice to me...
It’s not hard to empty if you need it: lift the collator assembly up and off, turn it upside down over a tray and trap on the bottom of the primer disk while holding it at a 45 deg angle, the primers will slide back out of the slots, back into the open inverted bowl area and fall out into your awaiting tray. Its takes just seconds to do.
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8 hours ago, BigEar said:
I guess in order to get the machine working, I need to keep the bowl have at least three hundred primers at all time. If you have less, the last few primers will just wondering around.
Yes, you are correct. The Primer Pro was never designed to be totally emptied. For best performance you need to keep the bowl filled with 200-400 primers.so put in 300-400, and top up another 100 with each 100 you feed out. that is how it was always designed to run, and will give you the best output speeds.
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3 hours ago, slavex said:
The way to set the tube is to move the magnet way down, further than it needs to be, then place tube up against the exit chute, tight, and push the magnet up until it connects. then tighten the set screw.
Slavex - exactly right. its important to do it just like this - as it’s the only way to ensure the magnet collar is at the correct height so that the top of the tube is pressed up against the bottom of the exit hole. this is explained in the manual as well as in online video.
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2 hours ago, Hooked said:
My only problem is that I can’t get the last 10 - 12 primers in the bowl to go down the feedramp.
Hooked,
I know the last few primers out the collator sometimes do not go. But that was not really viewed as an issue, as the intention was to keep running the collator with primers in it – never running it empty.
For best performance, load 300 primers and add 100 for each 100 you feed out. so you are always working in the 200-300 quantity in the bowl. That way output speeds are maximized. If you do have to empty the bowl completely, the last few may be slow to get out. often a primer will need another primer to ride up behind it to tap it through the slot (at the kink point), which is why when the bowl is empty some primers may remain in the disk going round and round. New primers loaded into the bowl will push them out.
Saul
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3 hours ago, Longhill said:
Using Fiocchi small pistol primers with a height of 3.04.
No luck getting the primers to reach the feed ramp.
I will try shimmy next.
Anyone have any luck with Fiocchi?Hi Longhill,
you should not need to shim those primers. we tested extensively with Fiocchi primers. try a little dry lube in the bowl.
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18 hours ago, Balakay said:
I know Corny and rest assured, it is going to take a whole lot more than this to offend him. Regardless, can the majority of users objectively support the notion that the product is well engineered? I have nothing but respect for Saul/DAA and their willingness to innovate but in this case...the Emperor has no clothes
HI Balakay
I do believe the product is well engineered. In fact, I really believe it’s an ingenious design, one for which I cannot take much personal credit. It is mostly the brain-child of one of my engineering team. However, I am most proud of its design and being able to realize it into a Product at the Price point we have.
And while there are a dozen or so people with issues on this thread – and I do take that seriously (as you can see) we have just over 1,000 units out there being used! The majority of those users are using it successfully. More than a few have emailed us to say so, or have left positive reviews on the product page. Some issues do exist, and greatly depend on the brand of primers in use. But most have found that the use of a little dry lube, or Pledge type cleaner solves any function/output issues.
Saul
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On 1/25/2020 at 6:52 PM, ltdmstr said:
Saul, I appreciate your willingness to engage with customers on this. However, the comment above clearly misses the point. Saying that the material used here isn't the problem I think is incorrect. And referring to "plastic" generically, is like saying that all steel is the same. It isn't. The material used for your machine is not high quality plastic. It's tacky, flimsy, and incapable of holding close tolerance. That's probably one of the primary reasons the machine hasn't worked as intended for many of us. There are other types of plastic that are more rigid, slicker, and can be machined rather than molded. Maybe using a different/better material would have put you above the targeted price point. But probably not by much. And it certainly wouldn't have tripled or quadrupled the price. Even if it cost as much as the Dillon RF100, that would have been fine for most of us if it were similar quality and 100% reliable. I'm sorry this hasn't worked out, both for you, and those of us who are looking for a real solution to help with this task. I hope you'll continue working on this and eventually have a nice product that works to everyone's satisfaction.
Hi ltdmastr,
Yes, I assure you I am well aware that there are many kinds of plastics. I have been involved in plastic production for more than 20 years, since the days I used to work with BUL.
We did not randomly choose the types of plastics used in the Primer Pro. In fact, there are three types of plastics being used in the product, and none of them were chosen for price consideration! They were all chosen in order to maximize performance and molding behaviors. These materials were chosen in consultations with our mould and plastics supplier, based on our requirements for tolerances and accuracy and warping issues.
Are there other types of plastic we could try? Yes, for sure. slickness of the plastic was never a main requirement as this issue was not identified early on, as previously explained. We may look into experimenting with other plastics now, but I am doubtful the solution will ever be possible without using a cleaner/dry film protection layer. A tacky wet/sticky primer is always going to stick to some degree or another, it would seem, and in combination with its very light weight, this is an issue. and issue solved by some cleaner applied from time to time.
Machining these parts from any kind of plastic or aluminum is no option. costs aside, the design does not lend itself to machining, due to sharp inner corners and lack of tool access in some places.
Saul
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On 1/25/2020 at 4:59 PM, The Donald said:
I understand how equipment is made, and needs to be made at a reasonable price. Using the correct plastics to mold a part that is ready to assemble is a very smart move.
I wish my collator worked correctly, the ramp problem would be easy to solve, my problem was I could run the collator until it shut off and only get 3-5 primers to get to the ramp. I tried both disks and still no luck.
Did you try to apply a plastic cleaner or dry lube in the disk? that seems to have solved the issue of primers not exiting the disk for every customer I had direct contact with about this issue! Have you tried this solution?
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Hi all,
I thank you for sharing your experiences and suggestions.
Calling a product cheap because it’s made of plastic is just not correct. Plastic is a material perfect for many applications, and this is certainly one of them. Yes, it is a mechanical device, but it is under not stress and applies no forces and there is no reason it cannot work perfectly made of plastics.
And as some of you will now, this is not the fastest or cheapest way to make a product. In order to produce the Primer Pro at an affordable price, we invested over $70,000 in tooling. It would have been much cheaper to make a couple of hundred from machined aluminium and go to market for $750, but forgive me if that was not my goal.
Many are quick to criticize, some without any knowledge about materials or product design and production processes.So these primers, laying out in open bins for months – became totally dry. Some primers are tacky and sticky out of the box, but when you leave them out for a long time – they get dry. They then slide over the plastic surfaces without issue. That is why we missed the severity of this problem earlier on.
If anyone is having an issue – please try that.
Have a great weekend,
Saul
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Hi Guys,
to those having output speed issues with the V2 disk, but have inverted primers with the V1 disk, there is one other fix you could try that a customer came up with for his primers ( believe they were winchester) as he was having that issue. What he did was used disk 2, but spaced the disks out a hair by introducing a spacer between them. this allowed him the benefit of the tighter "bend" format in the track V2 has, but with more space to get primers through faster.
using the sticky part of a post-it cut into little squares, he placed those as shown in the picture and then assembled again. this spaces the timing disk up by about 0.05mm and can make all the difference for particular primers.
you could use a small piece of tape, or a piece of a target patch just as well. a small increase in the gap will increase output speed! Note the position in the picture these stickers need to go! NOT further out on the height stap, as that area does not contact the Timing Disk.
Give it a try if you are having issues with your primer of choice.
Saul
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Hi All,
I am sorry to read some of the negative initial feedbacks here on this board. And of course we take all feedback seriously. But a bit a fairness would be appreciated too.
Some comments like “I’m not even going to try mine” or that “primer dust accumulating after 2K primes is “a huge concern” are just plain unfair to the product.
Primer dust accumulates whenever primers are handled. Anyone who has ever used a vibratory primer feeding solution has seen the yellow dust build up. It can be wiped away, and is no issue at all! our system certainly handles the primers less violently than they are handled in a steal vibratory bowl!
Our mistake was that we fed the same primers through again and again, as we were not using the primers to load ammo, but just to test. The stickiness of the primers is gone after they are fed through the first time, so that issue was not realized as being a serious one. The primers tend to have this lube on them when they come out the box, but once they are out in the open, in trays, as we kept them, they are dry ,and don’t seem to stick.
I will be at shot show the coming week, so will not be much available to respond for the next few days, but can be reached by email off our site.
Saul kirsch
Double-Alpha Academy
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5 hours ago, chevrofreak said:
It makes me mad how much stuff Hotmail puts in spam because that is where the DAA email about these being in stock went, so it looks like my order from December 7th wasn't part of the first batch....
I found that one of the ways to overcome this is to move that email from the spam folder to the inbox so any future emails from the same email address will land there.
Doesn't work 100% on all mail clients but worth a try.
My 2 cents.
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HI Guys,
Just wanted to update those following this thread.
Our plastics factory really came through for us, did a priority modification to the tooling and we produced 3000 pcs of the modified disk. This eliminates the reversed primers!
So these disks arrived yesterday, and today we shipped out several hundred of them to awaiting customers and dealers. Note that we are sending every customer a V2 disk, even though many will choose not to use it. The original V1 works great with most primers, but if you do have any upside-down primers, simply change to Disk v2.
To our north American customers – Alpha Dynamics will receive these disks next week and should start shipping out the back orders then. It will take a couple of weeks to get them all out, as more stock needs to be sent from DAA too.
Have a great weekend! Get out to the range if you can.
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1 minute ago, ltdmstr said:
Well, that's a first class response. Much appreciated. Let's hope the fixes work and this thing turns out to be a good deal for all involved..
Having watched Primer-Pro units fill many hundreds of primer tubes over the past few months, I feel very confident it will be!
Saul
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Hi Guys,
Allow me to share some updates with you.
Myself, the design and assembly team at DAA worked very hard on the Primer-Pro, and we truly believe in its design and ability to be the solution so many of us reloaders have been waiting for for years.
We tested the design extensively, and run every unit for 5 tubes (feeding 500 primers) before shipping out. We were very confident the first few hundred units we shipped out were perfect.
And believe me, we worked hard ( and I mean LOTS of effort and overtime) to get the units shipped out ahead of schedule.
Unfortunately, the feedback we are getting from some users forces us to accept that there are issues we missed. It seem the primers we were testing with ( 3 brands) were not fully representative of the range of primer dimensions which are out there. This leads to some unacceptable upside-down primers getting through, due to the gap between the primer disk and timing disk being a hair too large for the smaller primers found in some brands, where the tolerances in primer height is greater than we expected or accounted for.
And I FULLY agree that even ONE single upside down primer per tube is one too many! And we have done many runs here with our primers where 0/1000 upside-down were recorded.
So, we have spent most of the past week working on this issue, and we believe we now have a good solution, which is an easy retro-fit to the units already out there and the new ones about to ship out. A laser cut spacer of 0.2mm can be fitted into the primer disk, and it effectively reduces the gap and eliminates those reverse primers. Also a coarser threaded screw for better assembly tension will be used.
We have tested with 11 primer brands so far with perfect results. We are waiting on 2 more brands we have not yet tested with (including the magtech mentioned above) and will confirm with those too. Believe me, after all the R&D time, effort and money put into the Primer-Pro, we have no intention to allow this to be less than perfect!
I urge any early adopters who already received their unit -if you are having any issues with reversed primers – email me at daa@doublealpha.biz so we can send you the spacer and screws. Please do that and allow us the chance to show you the product will work as advertised, rather than rushing to trash it on forum boards and SM.
To all those waiting for delivery in the USA: We already shipped a few hundred units to the US, but I put a hold on distributing those last week, as soon as we became away of the issue discussed here. We want to ensure that no matter what primer you choose to use, the product functions perfectly.
Resolving this issue in volume will take a couple of weeks, due to the holidays here in Europe. We need to purchase the material required for these spacers and laser cut them, then get them added to all units. This will cause a 2-3 week delay in delivery. I Sincerely apologize for that. If anyone prefers not to wait and wishes to cancel his order for a refund – that is surely possible.
I thank you for taking the time to read this update, and I hope you will give us a little time to make sure this product lives up to the potential we know that it has.
On behalf of all the hard working team at DAA, I wish you a healthy, happy and successful 2020!
Saul Kirsch,
Double-Alpha Academy -
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the interest and excitement for this product. We have been crazy busy here getting these ready and shipping. The first 500 units have shipped out, and many have emailed us their positive reactions.
The solution – is to use a little cockpit spray (the kind of spray used to clean the inside plastic dashboard of your car) applied with a small swab (like an earbud) onto the exit ramp. This totally resolves this issue, and can be reapplied as needed.
DAA primer pro collator
in non-Dillon Reloading Equipment
Posted · Edited by doublealpha
Stymie1200 - I never recommend spraying the primers with anything. I recommed spraying the box with silicone and then shaking the primers around in that box.
I believe I also showed that clearly in the video posted.
I think its great you reached out to Winchester for comment, but perhaps it would be more productive if you send them the link to the video I posted, so they could comment on what is actually proposed.
Would they recommend putting anything on their primers? I am sure not. But the question that should be put to them is “do you think doing as shown in this video would lead to any issues with the primers function?”
have a good one
saul