MojitoCalido
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Posts posted by MojitoCalido
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On 6/12/2018 at 6:00 AM, Trinimon said:
Thanks for posting your data. Did you find the ones loaded with TG more snappy than the vv340?
I left a few rounds of the middle loads to compare VV340 vs TG. It was only about 4 rounds of each. I can't tell you which was "softer" or "snappier" by feel. I'd need to have many more rounds or be a better shooter. Ideally, I'd attach an accelerometer and get hard data. Maybe someday.
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I finally bought a chrono and took the time to make a few different loads. I used VV340 and Titegroup powders, 3 different powder weights, 2 primer types. This should be very useful for someone trying to work up a new load. Maybe less useful if you are trying to find conclusive data about CCI vs Win primers, but still interesting to look at.
The constants:
Lee Classic Turret, Lee dies all around
Precision Delta S&W40 180 grain Full Metal Jacket
M&P 40 Pro (5")
88 deg
Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chrono
OAL 1.120
Sample size for each lot was 5-10 rounds
FYI, PF of 165 with a 180 grain bullet requires 916.67 fps.
Test data:
A. TiteGroup
1. 4.3 grains
a. CCI primers:
µ=914 fps (low and high: 885, 944)
PF: 164.52
SD=21
b. Win primers:
µ=881.2 fps (low and high: 862, 903)
PF: 158.62
SD=15.3
2. 4.6 grains
a. CCI primers:
µ=943.6 fps (low and high: 925, 953)
PF: 169.85
SD=11.5
b. Win primers:
µ=941.5 fps (low and high: 920,971)
PF: 169.47
SD=18.4
At Area 3 in 2016, the above recipe (PD180, TG 4.6, who knows what primers) averaged 969 fps, PF 175.2
3. 4.9 grains
a. CCI primers:
µ=1008.8 fps (low and high: 998,1016)
PF: 181.58
SD=7.0
b. Win primers:
µ=999 fps (low and high: 970,1014)
PF: 179.8
SD=17.4
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B. VV 340
1. 5.0 grains
a. CCI primers:
µ=842.8 fps (low and high: 808,874)
PF: 151.71
SD=28.7
b. Win primers:
µ=865.6 fps (low and high: 853, 873)
PF: 155.81
SD=8.8
2. 5.3 grains
a. CCI primers:
µ=938.4 fps (low and high: 912, 952)
PF: 168.9
SD=15.9
b. Win primers:
µ=927.4 (low and high: 919, 947)
PF: 166.9
SD=11.4
3. 5.6 grains
a. CCI primers:
µ=989.8 fps (low and high: 968,1011)
PF: 178.16
SD=14.4
b. Win primers:
µ=994.33 (low and high: 983,1014)
PF: 179.0
SD=11.3
Misc notes and comments:
Primer comparison:
With TG lots, CCI primers averages were +33, +2, +9 fps faster than Winchester primers.
With VV340 lots: Win primers averages were +23, +11, +4 fps faster than CCI primers
The sample sizes of 5-10 rounds per recipe are too small IMO to make any sweeping conclusions about primer differences in velocity or consistency.
Titegroup is a flake powder and wanted to cling to my scale. VV340 is cylindrical and showed no clinging. I suspect that the VV340 meters more consistently than TG.
I shot from a benchrest at 65 feet. I did not see a significant group difference between the powders. I want to say VV was tighter, but it was not a dramatic difference between any of the 4 lighter loads. With both VV and TG, the hottest loads did start to spray compared to the 4 lighter loads.
I left a few rounds of the middle loads to compare VV340 vs TG. It was only about 4 rounds of each. I can't tell you which was "softer" or "snappier" by feel. I'd need to have many more rounds or be a better shooter. Ideally, I'd attach an accelerometer and get hard data. Maybe someday.
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Thank you for all of the quick replies. I love this forum.
Here's more info as requested in some of the replies.
Most of our matches are indoor. For that range, we have room to set up 2 stages at a time maximum. There are no bays, so we generally have to run everyone in 1 squad on 1 stage at a time. Teardown, setup, repeat. Very infrequently, we could have two short stages set up and we could split into two squads. A shoots stage 1, B shoots stage 2, and then scoring is done simultaneously. That is very rare. So, I like the idea of running everyone through once, and then the doublers next, but that is not an option for us for our indoor matches..
Next, this is low population density area. Out of 25 shooters, we might have 6 with a 20 min drive, everyone else is driving 1-3 hours, so its not realistic to expect them to arrive the day before or even 2 hours before our 10am start to help with setup.
Finally, we certainly want to promote the sport. But the entire burden of the match activities, pre, post and during, sits on just 4 of us, and often less since we all aren't always available. So the thought of putting even more burden on us by reducing the help we get scoring, taping, etc is problematic. Anyone who shoots only 1 division is picking up the duties that now can't be accomplished by those shooting 2 divisions. Long term, that will result in the pack horses getting sick of carrying the additional weight and quitting, and that will kill the sport here.
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We are a small club who gets 15-32 shooters per match. Most of the shooters are from out of town, so there are only 2-4 of us locals that run the match and do all of the pre and post match tasks. People are great with teardown and setup help if we do it day of, but its not uncommon to have only 2 of us that can RO the entire match.
Here is my question for all of you. How do you handle shooters that want to shoot in two divisions? I'm not opposed to it, and I totally get why people want to do it, but it does put more pressure on the few of us that are already overburdened. When others want to double up, it means that they have even less time to help with score keeping, brassing, pasting, sweeping, which puts even more load on us. Additionally, I feel like I can't shoot two divisions because I'm already RO'ing half of the match. So, we really end up punishing the people who are already doing most of the work, and creating legitimate reasons for others to contribute less. Your thoughts?
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Open the PDF and zoom in/out to the point where the graphic you want fills your screen without anything being cut off. Tap the "PrtScn" button (short for Print Screen). This is the same as using screen capture on your phone. Open a photo editing program - I like paint shop pro, but even Microsoft paint (free with Microsoft OS) will work. Use Ctrl+V to paste the captured screenshot as a new image. For some programs, you need to create a new pic first. Save as a .jpg, and it can be inserted into movie or presentation programs.
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Kevin Imel has been writing an article series titled "Effective Stage Design" for Front Sight starting with the July/August 2013 issue. The most current March/April 2015 issue included Part 11 to that series. I intend to share this with others in our club to help them with stage design, as it has helped me, but I am missing one of my Front Sight mags. Would anyone be willing to scan the article from the Jan/Feb 2014 issue for me? PM me and I'll send you my Email address. Please and Thanks.
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I've ran 200 rounds of Hornady XTP through my M&P Pro 40 without issue. OAL 1.120 to 1.125.
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I'm not. I'm nowhere near Level III stuff yet. I should get rid of the "U" in my classification column before looking at Level III matches.
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James, sadly I missed the Steel Challenge in Minot and the June USPSA match in Bismarck due to our family vacation. I'll try to make the Aug or Sept Minot matches, but my fun schedule is always a distant 2nd place to my kids' schedules.
Mike, I sure appreciate the RO work you did last wknd. Zero fatalities! I plan to shoot indoors in Fargo a few times this winter.
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Cory,
I just came across your post and video this afternoon. We were in the same squad at the state championships yesterday, in fact, I shot immediately behind you all day. Good to see another ND poster here. I'm not aware of too many of us. Your club did a fantastic job with the match, that was a great day. Hope to see you again in a Bismarck or Minot match. Be sure to check out the calendar on the Bismarck club site. www.bmrpa.org.
- Brian from Bismarck
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James,
Welcome to practical shooting in ND. You'll have some options, but of course it may involve some driving. Nothing new for us NoDaks. If you don't already know him, track down Larry Manning - he is very connected with the ND action pistol shooting scene. I believe he shoots at the EGF club. You'll have options year round for USPSA matches in Fargo, Bismarck and Minot. I'm not sure about the EGF shooting schedule, but they are outdoors only. There was talk at the ND Handgun championships last weekend of getting the club match schedules more organized so that they don't overlap. Hope to see you at a USPSA match this year.
www.bmrpa.org
www.minotrifleandpistol.com
www.fmpsa.com
- Brian
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The reason I said to not use TiteGroup with the LCT is because TG is a very small volume powder and the Discs have pretty big jumps for the small volume. Also, the adjustable charge bar does not work well with TG and typical 9mm/.40 loads in my experience.
I'm new to reloading and am using a Lee Classic Turret with the auto disk powder measure and Titegroup. I chose Titegroup because I had read somewhere a recommendation to use spherical powders with this equipment, and somewhere else that Titegroup was spherical. The latter is false. Nevertheless, the powder measures fairly consistently, but not at the volume stated in the Lee guide. With a sample size of about 10 readings per cavity, here is what I found.
Cavity 37. Lee book states that it should drop 4.4 grains. Actual grain drop average was 3.9.
Cavity 40. Lee book: 4.7 grains. Actual avg: 4.35 grains.
Cavity 43. Lee book: 5.1 grains. Actual avg: 4.75 grains.
I understand that some people modify the disks by drilling and threading a screw that protrudes into the opening on a disk so that you can variably reduce the qty of powder for a cavity, giving you some more flexibility or resolution in the powder charge volume.
FWIW, here's are the velocity results I saw, though I must add the caveat that the battery in the chrony was near dead, so I'll try to test again on Wed.
Titegroup powder. Hornady XTP 180 gr (FMJ) bullets. M&P Pro (5" barrel). 80 deg day. Sample size of 4-5 shots, avg FPS and PF are shown.
3.9 grains. Avg velocity of 884.2 FPS which equates to Avg Power Factor of 159.
4.35 grains. Avg velocity of 955.9 FPS which equates to Avg PF of 172.
4.75 grains. Avg velocity of 1026.6 FPS which equates to Avg PF of 185.
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Be aware of this. The 5" Pro 40 is NOT on the approved list for Production. If you change the make, barrel length or caliber, that gun is probably on the list. But S&W part number 178032 is not yet.
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Welcome Seabee. I live in Bismarck and just started shooting. We'll be doing monthly action pistol matches with the BMRPA club. The indoor range is on the southern edge of town, the outdoor range is about 30 miles SW of Bismarck. Love it if you could make it to our matches.
- Brian
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Does anyone know how close we are to getting the 5” 40 S&W pro approved for limited and production?
Hey everyone,
Sorry, just seeing this! From what I understand S&W has passed the 500 mark for USPSA, but the paperwork for USPSA has not been completed. The M&P Pro 40 is not currently legal in USPSA Production as S&W has not met USPSA's minimums.
For 5" guns in the M&P line, the Pro in 9mm and the 9L are legal in Limited and Production. I myself personally don't agree with the logic of not approving the 5" .40 since there is no competitive advantage gained in capacity or felt recoil with all production guns scored minor and limited to 10 rounds. USPSA likely developed the 2K rule so that boutique companies couldn't create small quantities of production guns. Unfortunately how major manufacturers schedule production does not seem to have been taken into account. It comes down to supply and demand from the distribution system. S&W faced the same challenge with the Pro 9mm and the 9L becoming Production legal when there were extremely MINOR differences between the 2 models (trigger weight, slide cuts and an insignificant difference in weight). I personally disagree with the rules in these cases, but all I can offer at this time is that other shooting sports recognize the M&P Pro 40 as the same model, simply in a different caliber.
I'll see what I can do to get the paperwork moving along where I can.
Julie
Hi Ryan,
Paperwork for the 4” M&P 40 Pro and the 5” M&P 40 Pro was submitted to John Amidon via email for the Limited & Limited 10 Division requirements last week. I'll do my best to check the status for Production and request that be submitted as well.
All the best,
Julie
Got an email from John Amidon. Both the standard and 5" M&P Pro Series .40 are legal in Limited, L10 and Open. John said he'll have it published in the next front sight but they are OFFICIALLY legal in those divisions. I'll see what I can do about Production next!
Julie
Julie -
Per the above posts, the M&P Pro 40 (5") is good for USPSA Limited and Limited 10, but still needs to have S&W submit paperwork, and get USPSA approval, before it gets on the USPSA Production Division approved gun list. Can I respectfully request that you check with John Amidon or someone else at S&W to get an update on the status of this task. It seems that there is a lot of interest in getting this gun approved. Any assistance that you can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Does anyone have any idea how close we are to getting the M&P Pro 40 (5") added to the USPSA Production Division approved list???
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Does anyone know how close we are to getting the 5” 40 S&W pro approved for limited and production?
Hey everyone,
Sorry, just seeing this! From what I understand S&W has passed the 500 mark for USPSA, but the paperwork for USPSA has not been completed. The M&P Pro 40 is not currently legal in USPSA Production as S&W has not met USPSA's minimums.
For 5" guns in the M&P line, the Pro in 9mm and the 9L are legal in Limited and Production. I myself personally don't agree with the logic of not approving the 5" .40 since there is no competitive advantage gained in capacity or felt recoil with all production guns scored minor and limited to 10 rounds. USPSA likely developed the 2K rule so that boutique companies couldn't create small quantities of production guns. Unfortunately how major manufacturers schedule production does not seem to have been taken into account. It comes down to supply and demand from the distribution system. S&W faced the same challenge with the Pro 9mm and the 9L becoming Production legal when there were extremely MINOR differences between the 2 models (trigger weight, slide cuts and an insignificant difference in weight). I personally disagree with the rules in these cases, but all I can offer at this time is that other shooting sports recognize the M&P Pro 40 as the same model, simply in a different caliber.
I'll see what I can do to get the paperwork moving along where I can.
Julie
Hi Ryan,
Paperwork for the 4” M&P 40 Pro and the 5” M&P 40 Pro was submitted to John Amidon via email for the Limited & Limited 10 Division requirements last week. I'll do my best to check the status for Production and request that be submitted as well.
All the best,
Julie
Got an email from John Amidon. Both the standard and 5" M&P Pro Series .40 are legal in Limited, L10 and Open. John said he'll have it published in the next front sight but they are OFFICIALLY legal in those divisions. I'll see what I can do about Production next!
Julie
Julie -
Per the above posts, the M&P Pro 40 (5") is good for USPSA Limited and Limited 10, but still needs to have S&W submit paperwork, and get USPSA approval, before it gets on the USPSA Production Division approved gun list. Can I respectfully request that you check with John Amidon or someone else at S&W to get an update on the status of this task. It seems that there is a lot of interest in getting this gun approved. Any assistance that you can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Finally decided to give S&W a try due to everyone's praise of their Pro Series. I contacted the local Cabrll's (none) and their suppliers don't have them. Look on the Internet gun dealers....out of stock. Called two S&W DFW area dealers....one had a 4.25" model. Looking for the 5".
WTF is up with S&W when according to the two Dealers, it would be 5-8 Mths and the other told me that no available date is referenced because they don't know.
I don't pretend to know that much about the firearms imanufacturing industry, but it does not seem like 5-8 mths is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a mass produced firearm. Or am I wrong?
To STIGUY or anyone else looking for a M&P Pro 40 cal (5" barrel, FO front sight, S&W part no 178032):
I had a devil of a time finding this gun, the inventory dried up over the past 1+ months. My local gun shop couldn't find it and it was out of stock at every online store I could find. I finally found one on gunbroker (thank you BE member JeffWard), and then just received a notice that another is in stock at Get R Done Guns. getgunsonline.com. I recommend that you hurry.
A word of warning for those looking for this gun. I have seen multiple sites show a M&P Pro in stock, but it turned out to be a 4.25" barrel. Sometimes the barrel length is referenced, but not always. If you want the real M&P Pro in 40 cal with a 5" barrel, make sure that the S&W item number is 178032.
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My M&P Pro 40 arrived today. Thanks to those of you who offered leads and especially to aggieddad02 and JeffWard for your above and beyond efforts. For anyone that is still looking for this gun (5" barrel, FO front sight, S&W number 178032), I was contacted by one of the many sites that I left messages at, Get R Done Guns has one in stock. getgunsonline.com
A word of warning for those looking for this gun. I have seen multiple sites show a M&P Pro in stock, but it turned out to be a 4.25" barrel. Sometimes the barrel length is referenced, but not always. If you want the real M&P Pro in 40 cal with a 5" barrel, make sure that the S&W p/n is 178032.
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Does anyone have a line on where I can find an M&P Pro 40? Online dealers or local guns shops. They seem to have dried up.
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I believe you are incorrect....there in NOT a long slide "non pro" version reflected on $&W website. More importantly, I am not sure how quickly you plan on purchasing, but my research suggest this .40 Pro 5 inch model won't be available until November.
STI, do you know what the story is here? I have been looking for the M&P Pro 40, unsuccessfully, and can have some patience, but don't want to wait until November.
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Well, I waited too long. My M&P Pro 40 is gone, and now I can't find them in stock anywhere online. JMIS, where did you find yours?
I did come across a M&P Pro 40L. I'm not certain what the "L" is about, maybe a Law Enforcement version? If the M&P 40 makes the approved gun list for USPSA Production Division, does that include the 40L as well? I see that the list currently contains a M&P Pro 9 and 9L.
I just picked up a .40 PRO today. I'm going to set it up for Limited or Limted 10. I have 9mm PRO that I shoot in Production and love it
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I'm so glad that I found this forum, and particularly this topic. Great info. Thank you G-man Bart and others. I am brand new to shooting and have started shooting USPSA Single Stack with a borrowed 1911 .45 ACP, but of course want my own semi-auto handgun. I want a 5" barrel, I don't reload (yet), and have been most interested in the S&W M&P Pro Series, and the Springfield XD Tactical Series.
First, is this correct:
- 9mm. cheapest ammo. Perfect for Production Division. Can be used for Limited/Limited 10, but you are penalized more for misses as it is Minor Power Factor.
- 40 S&W. slightly more than 9mm, but cheapest ammo for Major PF. Can be used in Production Div, and is Major PF for L/L10.
Assuming the above is correct, I prefer .40 S&W because of the division flexibility. There's not a lot of action pistol shooters here, so I don't want to be stuck shooting in a meet with 2 shooters in my division. Here is the problem and question. The Springfield XD Tactical (5" barrel) is on the Production Division approved gun list in both the 9mm and 40 S&W. The Smith & Wesson M&P Pro (5") is approved for the 9mm, but the .40 S&W is NOT on the list. To add to my confusion, the M&P 40 in 3" and 4" are on the list. Does anyone have some insight here? Is there a legit reason for this omission? Is the list updated regularly?
Disregard the above post in this thread. It is being covered in a different thread: Technical/Factory/S&W/M&P40 Pro...
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That would be fantastic, and thanks for the quick reply. I was referring to the 1:26 long video on juliegolob.com. Congrats on your upcoming book release!
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Buy it and shoot Limited 10. That's where is the competition is anyway.
That may be true where you are, but if I shot L or L10 last wknd, I'd be shooting in a division of 1 or 2 shooters (including me). Single Stack and Production are the most popular divisions here. I like the 40 over the 9mm so that if L/L10 becomes more popular, or if I travel, I have options to get into any of those divisions. I'd rather finish in 8th place out of 10 shooters than 1st out of 1.
Test results for S&W40 with Titegroup and VV340
in 10mm/40 Caliber
Posted
That is not a variable that I tried to control, but these all used once fired brass from the same vendor. I may try to run another experiment with larger lots that can compare new brass vs a lot of reclaimed brass, but maybe not - I'd rather use my time and budget practicing.
If temp, primer brand, and brass brand are all variables that change velocity by +/- 20-40 fps, how does anyone consistently hit 170-175 PF without going insane.