Kahrnage
-
Posts
19 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Forums
Profiles
Events
Store
Posts posted by Kahrnage
-
-
Ben Stoeger recently came out to the greater Seattle area and put on a competition based class for a few of us. We numbered six students total for an advanced level 2-day class. All of us being experienced shooters looking to improve and for most of us in particular areas of need that were self identified beforehand. The majority of us had also taken multiple classes in the past prior to attending this one.
The format on day one was Ben running students to observe their particular strengths and weaknesses, running the class through drills that one or more students needed to work on, discussions on topics as they presented themselves, running us through variations of a stage that was modified throughout the day as a means to put to use the particular skill set under review, requesting feedback from the students on the how or why of particular actions or approaches before commenting on what he saw the student do.
The format for day two was seven separate stages set up to mimic what a typical match might be comprised of. We all ran through the stages and kept score on a laptop using ezwinscore.
The following are some thoughts on the class.
First off not many trainers will fly out to put on a class for only six people and I can truly understand the reasoning behind this. From the perspective of the students, however, a small class size is great as the smaller the class size the more individual instruction each student gets. Throughout the class this proved true as everyone had plenty of individual instruction time with Ben. I felt that six students was ideal as two days of one on one might be a little too intense and this allowed me to work on my areas of need and also learn from others as they worked with Ben on theirs.
Having a loosely structured class is something I could see as being highly problematic for trainers but I thought it was great. Lets face it we have all been to classes that start out the same as the last five classes covering things we already know. Ben cut through that all by structuring the class to for the students and not the instructor. What I mean is he evaluated us all right off by running us through a stage and then asking us if we had particular areas we wanted to work on (even though he had our shooting bios and our particular areas of desired focus prior to the class) and not just running us through a regimented class structure of drills. By doing so he seemed to have a good grasp on what the class and each student needed to work on as well as what each wanted from the class.
The individual stages set up to mimic a match was great as we were all able to watch each other, listen to Bens comments, and put in to practice what we were learning or working on without it being part of an actual match. Doing this as part of a match has inherent restrictions on time and rerunning stages due to the following squads and if the instructor is shooting its hard to work with the students and prep for a stage. So the mimicked match on day two worked well in favor of the students in my opinion.
I purposefully avoided trying to present a typical this was the class topics and format type of review as Ben can set up the class to meet the students needs and as such it isnt very realistic to try and bullet point the class topics and format.
All in all it was a great class, Ben put a lot of time and work into the class, and I would recommend him if youre looking to bring in an instructor to improve your game.
-
my demeanor is deceptive
i just need the right job
Sounds like that job should be product fail testing...if it survives you then it's ready for the general public.
-
I was also a little upset that in stage 7 either a target or steel hard cover was moved between Friday and Saturday. When my squad shot there was no lower A zone visible on a particular target from the start position, taking a big step to the right exposed an inch or two. On Saturday there was about half the A zone visible from the start position. I don't even know how you go about disputing that or proving it without pictures.
There was almost no A zone visible from the start position on Friday on that target on the right. Even moving all the way over to the right by the wall only exposed half of it. I have video from that stage but I don't know if pulling a picture from that video would be sufficient in proving that something was moved. Had there been more exposed on that target, I would have changed the order in which I shot the stage.
*This is EmanP, didn't realize the computer was logged in under Kahrnage.
-
I look forward to clearing things up with you in person sometime soon as email, posts, etc... can be easily taken out of context.
-Max Michel
Double Impact Training
Thanks Max.
We will be at Area1 on Friday only.
Maybe we'll see you there and can talk.
-
Now I'm confused.
Wingman made it sound like these classes are NOT for profit, i.e. personal sacrifice and for the "betterment of the sport." There are lots of sycophants in our community, but maybe it was true. If true, then the people who took the class should be honored to get some tips from Max and TT.
But now I read that this is how Max feeds his family. If that's true, then it's a business, and not done for the "betterment of the sport." In which case, I am a little surprised that unhappy customers are responded to like this.
I know a little bit about firearms training, and there are lots of better ways to respond to unhappy (or at least not completely satisfied) customers......and it sounds like maybe they were.
Wingman made it sound like a community service (complete with Teddy Roosevelt quote) but now it seems like it was a business.
Pretty strange thread.
Summary: Dudes take class; some are happy, some are not. The "not" dudes express an opinion and get jumped on by people who weren't there. One of the providers of the class jumps in on the jumping on.
This must be one of those internet things.
FY42385
I think their comments are out of character. They don't strike me as being anything but great people...I think they were just frustrated and vented a little bit. MM/TT are those guys you shoot with that are always taping and helping the squad move along and smiling while they do it. They personify shooters everywhere and give us all good names...just chalk it up to a bad moment as we all have them
-
This was my comment...That said Max and Travis are great people with some amazing skills and are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet (nice to the point that they really don't want to point out that you are doing something wrong and tell you to correct it) but they are good people for sure. All experiences are profitable and this one was as well, just not equal to my expectations or financial expenditure. That's my 2 cents worth.
I do not believe that to be an attack, a claim to have learned nothing, or that my repeated requests for critiques were an expression of close-mindedness. There is a difference between learning something and equivalency of value for financial expenditure. I did not then or now intend any personal attack to either of you and I will send you an email follow up to this post.
-
Received an email from Travis and I thought I would share this as it goes out just as much to my volunteers for the match, as it is for me, I can't pull something like this off on my own.
I'm sure he's just being really nice, but it sure made me very proud.
Ari,I'd like to thank you again for the job you did on the class and the match. That is easily the best club match I've ever shot in my life! I hope the shooters up there appreciate you and the job you're doing. Please consider relocating to my area so I can shoot your matches more often! :-)
Thank You,
Travis Tomasie
I think he was just being honest. When you have people setting up matches that also shoot multiple other matches per month (every weekend for a few people) you tend to get well experienced shooters who know what they like and know how to change things up a bit. I think your match excelled at doing just that.
-
The intentions of this thread was simply to share my video and discuss the match from Renton.
Emanual and TJ, I am very sorry you guys did not get out of the training what you had anticipated. And I am not going to impose on your rite to free speech, but please find/open another thread to discuss this.
If you have any direct comments or concerns towards me about the class, I would much appreciate a direct and private conversation regarding this, and I'd be happy to talk with you about it. Your comments make me feel like I roped you guys into this class, and provided a bad atmosphere for the class, if that is the case, I would rather appreciate a direct conversation and not via a public forum. You guys know me, I am easy to find and talk to.
Ari B
You are not to blame for anything...rather to be thanked for your efforts.
You coordinated a class and followed it up with an amazing section match.
I thank you for that and I really have nothing else to say about the class that hasn't been said already.
-
Sudden Death, thanks for your comments.
I’ll let others chime in for a while.
-
Is this the part where people get beat up for relating their experiences?
Apparently so. I love how posters use direct attacks to offset an honest opinion with no malicious intent and couple it with outright presumptions of my intent or actions. But I'm the one that doesn't have an open mind
-
Ok, everyone has the right to their own opinion, so here is mine. I just orginized and had a class with Travis and Max it was a great experance and I think I can say that on behalf of the class, except for a little weather problem, but we made due, they did everything that they wanted to cover, maybe not as long of time due to rain shower and t-storms. It sounds to me you 2 guys wanted a class designed around you 2, I bet there was probally 12 to 14 other people there that a few of them was not the caliber you guys are but they probally got the most out of the class, but Travis and Max has to design a class for people from D to GM shooters, now I understand being the high caliber guys you are, that just maybe you feel you did not get your moneys worth, I kinda think it should have been up to you guys to see what the class was going to cover and then decide if the class was right for you, your right $550 is no drop in the bucket, but I seems to me that what you guys are really upset about is you did not check and see what the class is going to cover and you could not get your money back. As for my Max and Travis class I would do it againg if the chance comes around again, but I will tell you this I will ask that they make it more advanced than the first one, not that there was something wrong with the first class just so we dont over lap classes.
Erroneous presumptions aside thank you for your opinion and comments on how the class you put together went. As for the sarcasm...now I can appreciate that.
The erroneous presumptions-that we did not research the class before hand or that we wanted/requested a refund.
We fully expressed our concerns about making sure the class was right for us before hand to the organizer and were involved in multiple emails on the subject. Yes TT/MM were involved in the discussion.
At no time did we ever request a refund or even mention it. We participated in the class and they were paid for their time; simple as that. Not sure how you arrived at this particular presumption.
You have my gratitude for your opinions and comments on the class you organized. I think most of us value open discussion on any number of topics because whether we like it or not many of the decisions we make are based on information from others (optics, holsters, guns, you name it). I was sent a PM thanking me for my original comments from someone else who seems to have experienced similar occurrences in his years of training. So even though my opinion is deferent than yours there are others that have been in my proverbial shoes as well as yours.
As for the sarcasm…I’m a fan!
It could be misunderstood that we think more of our abilities than anyone else and again, I can appreciate the sarcasm. The facts are that we have taken many training classes and normally know what to expect and we hoped for great things from this class that just didn’t materialize. That doesn’t mean we expected a class designed solely for us, yes there were 12 students, yes some of them probably got more out of the class than us but when did it become okay to pay that much money to subsidize other peoples training just because they have more to learn (maybe in Obama’s world but not in mine). Even you said that a more advanced class would be requested if you put on another one…so you recognize that there were topics that could have been covered that would be more applicable to someone looking for more advanced training topics.
p.s. not trying to single you out just thought you had one of the more reasonable comments to respond to.
-
The last couple posters seem to indicate that the altruistic intentions of the trainers and their very presence should be enough, that we have no right of expectation for our class fees, and that any mention of disappointment is intended as personal attacks upon them. It's sad that some aren't entitled to an opinion by the opinion of others.
-
Well, I have zero opinion on the class as I wasn't in it, but the match was another great one. I appreciate all the hard work that goes into thinking up the stages as well as building them. Ari, you always do a great job with it and it is the reason Bill and I travel 3 hours almost every month to shoot it. To everyone that helps with the match, keep up the great work!
I fully agree, it was one of the best local matches I've been to in a while...Aristotle puts a lot of work and thought into his matches and I made sure to thank him for his work before I left.
-
It may be that my perspective is slightly different as a result of the many training classes I've taken throughout the years but I didn't feel it was worth the money spent. We really only spent about 4 hours shooting in the class (maybe 4 or 5 types of drills with my round count at 300 rounds total for the training portion of the class) and the rest was lecture time and the match on the following day. To date it is about the lowest round count class I have ever taken and covered the fewest amount of topics and techniques of any class as well.
I compared notes with a buddy that took a class last week from another top level trainer and there just wasn't any comparison on the amount of material covered, drills and techniques worked on, and individual focus from the trainer on pushing the individual in the areas they need the most. I would have actually liked to have participated in that class.
That said Max and Travis are great people with some amazing skills and are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet (nice to the point that they really don't want to point out that you are doing something wrong and tell you to correct it) but they are good people for sure.
All experiences are profitable and this one was as well, just not equal to my expectations or financial expenditure. That's my 2 cents worth.
(Edited for spelling correction)
-
It seemed that anything requiring organization was a struggle at this match. Took one enrollment form and two phone calls just for them to get my USPSA number and Classification. Things didn't improve much after arrival.
-
HK P30-L 9mm
in H&K
The P30L LEM wasn't availible when I purchased so I'm currently competing with a DA/SA P30 that was worked on by Gray Guns (see link to sigforum in a previous post) and I'm really happy with it. When I talked to Bruce regarding my DA/SA trigger job he said that he had also done a LEM that came out amazing and had good things to say about it. So now I"m curious and would like to get a P30L LEM worked over by Gray Guns to use in USPSA...not that my P30 doesn't work but the longer sight radius and LEM trigger sounds like it could be the way to go.
Training with Ben Stoeger
in Training Techniques
Posted
What I think he meant was we try to balance our comments with both the positive and negative aspects of the class so others can determine if it will meet their needs/expectations. In this case the class was exactly what we needed and desired in regards to our shooting skill set development that there realty wasn't any negative side to report.