Jadeslade
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Stage 2 Grenada with swinging bridge for shotgun.
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The 2016 Ft Benning Multigun Challenge was a superb match! Always the best match of the year and this year was no different. Difficult match to shoot fast, and nothing was easy. The stage designs were really well done, and the props are incomparable. No one else can do this. The WW1 stage (9) had the deepest trench ever at a match and I didn't fall off the wall this year, so all good. Truly fun to shoot this.The swinging bridge was awesome and unlike any other I have seen. Some shooters wished they had "the long range", i.e., the sniper range, but I don't think this is always under AMU control. The Army is constantly reorganizing itself, and the AMU is no different. It is superb, however.
I shot Stage 1 (Korea) in freezing cold rain, so I kept my raincoat on. Seemed appropriate for a stage named Korea. The esprit and energy of the USAMU is palpable and represents the US Army at their best. Thanks for a great match.
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Yes. Maybe they will just open it up and let the base commander and a bunch of Rangers shoot, or the whole AMU, or anybody on base. Would be fun. I'm shooting this one with a stock carbine. I'm just happy they have the match and food. Always the best match of the year. When they have it. Separates the wheat from chaff to not have prizes though, doesn't it?
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This the PCC sweeping thread. Can we stop talking about pistols and holsters. Not relevant. Do good gun handling, remember the cardinal rules of gun safety. and don't sweep people with your PCC. I know this thread will go on for years, but it is just wrong to argue against gun safety. Everything will be great, we have wonderful people working on it.
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Well Emily Post, that's what they are called in the USPSA set of rules. Look for yourself. Go troll someone else.
51 minutes ago, Kraj said:"Addendum - an item of additional material, typically omissions, added at the end of a book or other publication."
Addendum is an addition of the rulebook, its not a stand alone document.Wtf is your point? Your hat doesn't fit anymore? This is classic troll. Over and out.
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43 minutes ago, Kraj said:
Edit.
10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not.
Now I remember..10.5.2 only applies during a course of fire. So wouldn't 10.5.2.1 just be a sub rule of 10.5.2 and only apply during a course of fire? When you read it by itself it makes sense, but if it was in the rule book under 10.5.2 I feel it means something differentLook at the Addendum for PCC, Here is the complete addendum. You are confusing PCC rules with handguns rules:
Addendum to the 2014 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014. Pistol Caliber Carbine
All references to “handgun” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules.
All references to “strong hand” and “weak hand” in the current edition of the rule book apply to PCC as follows: Strong Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the strong hand side, trigger pulled with the strong hand. Both hands may be on the gun. Weak Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the weak side, trigger pulled with the weak hand. Both hands may be on the gun.
NO UPRANGE STARTS WHILE HOLDING THE CARBINE.
NOTE: This applies to classifier requirements in all instances.PCC 5.1.12 See appendix D8. All other handgun equipment rules apply to PCC
PCC 5.2.1 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:
PCC 5.2.1.1 Detachable magazines removed.
PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.
PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.
PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.
PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1
PCC 5.2.1.6 Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag.
PCC 6.2.5.1 If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for PCC division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no score.
PCC 8.1.6 PCC Ready Condition: normally the carbine will be prepared with a loaded chamber, loaded magazine inserted, and safety applied. Other ready conditions may be specified, and may be identical to the handgun ready condition, with the exception of holstering.
PCC 8.2.3 N/A for carbines. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is loaded.
PCC 8.2.4 side.
A course of fire may never require a competitor to start with the carbine held on the weak
A course of fire may never require a competitor to place his PCC in any location after the However, a competitor may place his PCC on any stable object provided this is
PCC 8.2.5.1
start signal.
accomplished in a safe manner and the PCC is unloaded or in a ready condition as stated in section 8.1.8.3.7.1, PCC: “Bolt closed, hammer down, flag”. While continuing to point the carbine safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the carbine by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, pulling the trigger, and then inserting the chamber flag or locking the bolt open. The carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down off the stage to a rack or case. Carbines may also be cased and transported off the stage in the case. When casing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1
PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.
PCC Appendix A3: All references to “strong hand” and “weak hand” in the current edition of the rule book apply to PCC as follows: Strong Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the strong hand side, trigger pulled with the strong hand. Both hands may be on the gun. Weak Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the weak side, trigger pulled with the weak hand. Both hands may be on the gun. Course descriptions may never require the carbine to be fired using only one hand.
NOTE: This applies to classifier requirements in all instances.
Probably should take an RO course. DVC
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10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.
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Sarge was referring to USPSA at large. And I agree with him. Personalizing to "your match" is awesome. But it means nothing if we want to have a rock solid rule book. It's not hard to have good gun handling and it's not hard to have decorum. If you show up to a match with a penis hat on I'm going to ask you to take it off. This thread is drifting. No sweeping period. Anywhere. It's not a handgun. You want to look at it go to safety area. This is not hard or onerous. No sweeping and no slings.
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lol. You want to shoot a sub 2000 9mm in competition. awesome trigger pull. come on in. good luck with it. Stock configuration, though.
It may seem logical to you to lighten the bolt and spring in a blowback gun, but it is not logical if you understand why some of us don't want you doing it. This is old science really from the late 1800's and early 20th century, and good new science from RRA and Bushmaster (old Bushmaster) who did a lot of work in recent years. You might want to ask Kel-Tec about it. It is not safe to lighten up the bolt. experiment all you want, publish some actual data, make your case, but don't just do it and expect good safe guns to result. You may not care about yourself, but think about the RO and other shooters nearby. The bolt return(the carrier is the bolt in this case) in a 9mm carbine should be smooth and solid, not snappy, or it will bounce. It does not lock. Read some more or talk to some older gunsmiths or armorers. Last post here.
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On 10/5/2016 at 1:23 PM, TonytheTiger said:
I shoot 3 gun primarily, both outlaw and 3GN. I don't consider sweeping with a flagged gun okay, and neither do any of my squadmates. I once ended up on a "big boy rules" squad. I brought the rules infractions to the attention of the MD and was rewarded with bad scoring calls from the RO the rest of the day. I love 3 gun but stupid people can really ruin a match quick.
This is how most experienced shooters feel. I don't like getting swept anywhere. Gun store, range, match. It is just plain bad gun handling. You can pass a loaded Benelli shotgun in a figure 8 between your legs without breaking the 180 or sweeping anyone, including yourself. You can maneuver through a disco with a loaded handgun without sweeping anyone. Learn to handle your weapons. Slings are definitely not needed for PCC in USPSA. Take the rule out. People - learn gun handling skills. Stop arguing about sweeping. It is part of the 4 basic rules we all adhere to and is in a card in every gun sold in America. Learn them.
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Ziebart-Really hate Vermont? In the summer? I don't think foisting is the word. Try foisting a major match on somebody. Not happening. I am happy CA has so many USPSA shooters. Many of them are my friends. But the argument that keeping the match in Las Vegas is great for California is kind of you know, parochial. Begs the question-why dont we just hold all USPSA Nationals in Las Vegas? It has been proposed in years past that USPSA should buy a range. I was just pointing out that there are many untapped ranges in Areas that have never been explored. All Nationals are financial arrangements. The goal is to put on the best match possible. The numbers of members of USPSA is pretty much equally divided between east and west, hence the Areas being set-up the way they are. Asking shooters at a match is a statistical non-starter. Skewed population. USPSA shooters and events are good publicity and good ambassadors for shooting sports overall, so it would be beneficial for the sport in general to move it around. Religious Shooter, I am glad you don't teach English, statistics, or reading. I was pointing out that discussing 3GN matches has no relevance to the USPSA Multigun Nationals. I also said look me up at the match. Be glad to discuss it there. Never said it was a bad match. Selling out the match means there is a high demand for an actually good match. It says nothing about how much people like Las Vegas. I think there is enough demand to have another match in the East. DVC
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22 hours ago, Religious Shooter said:
The MG Nationals was sold out in a day. It sold out while it is being held during Easter. I hear next year they will probably hold it during Christmas.
Does that sound like the shooter's are Vegas'ed out? It's not even being held in Vegas.
You heard this from who? Nobody. It's not even remotely humorous or germane to the issue. Its a USPSA Match, not an outlaw match. I like USPSA 3 Gun Matches, except the changes that have been made to Limited and Heavy Division rules. I'm shooting the match, look me up. You are tone deaf to what some of us are saying. And being self righteous about it. Mike can take this over just like he took over Single Stack Nationals. You don't have to shoot the match on Easter. Multiple scheduling possibilities. It sold out. And that means what?
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19 hours ago, Blizanthimum said:
Less mass=less optics bounce but more felt recoil.
I have switched from a 5.4oz buffer to a 2.6oz and saw a dramatic reduction in dot movement. I will eventually try a 1oz buffer.
While looking at my bolt the other day, I saw the solid mass pinned to my BCG and thought "why does it have to be so heavy and would lightening it give any benefits?"
The buffer makes your dot bounce? Dramatic reduction in dot movement? Where do you shoot? I want to try this. Not believable without actual data. I have an SBR Bushmaster 9mm Carbine. The powder charge controls recoil. I have no trouble hitting the A zone upper or lower at 25 yds. Two shots, fast.
19 hours ago, Blizanthimum said:Buffer spring tension keeps the bolt closed, not the mass of the bolt.
If you think that a spring will keep a bolt closed under the pressures generated in a 9mm blowback gun, guess again. You need to take physics again. A spring, no matter how strong, will not keep the bolt closed without the mass of the bolt being adequate. This is really old science. This is not a lock up system. The weight, sometimes translated as inertia, of the bolt keeps the chamber closed until sufficient pressure is reached. If the bolt opens too early, and the case head blows off, you will lose an eye and maybe more, whatever kind of goggles you wear. This is one of the reasons machine gun design hasn't changed much over the years and licenses to manufacture machine guns are so are so difficult to obtain. There are many companies and individuals with actual miles on this subject. I don't want anyone who reads this to think there is any benefit or that it is safe to do what you are suggesting. Do what you please to yourself. But don't lead others to think that it is safe or correct or beneficial. 9mm Carbines are not AR type weapons, they are blowback guns. Different design, different operation.
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password is listed in first post
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Awesome forum. Well worth the donation.
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Why would you lighten the BCG in a blowback gun? It doesn't operate like an AR. It just looks like an AR. Not sure why you would lighten a buffer. You may want to tune the recoil spring. by trial and error.
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This thread is about USPSA Multigun Nationals. As Gose succinctly put it, some guys like to shoot in the mud and rain. He was being sardonic. 3 Gun Nation matches are nothing like USPSA matches. They are in not so hot venues, with the exception of USA in Frostproof. Their "Nationals" was in the absolute worst venue ever seen for a 3 Gun match. So, not germane to the issue. Most major 3 gun matches are not held east of the Mississippi. I can make any match happen. Shot a ton of them. You should stick to the topic and not make it personal. I'm Las Vegased out, and so are a lot of shooters. And the weather isn't always great in Vegas. Maine is an untapped area, Vermont, New Hampshire and Virginia all have some outstanding ranges. And Florida of course, which is a hotbed of USPSA activity, as is Georgia. Before the last two years of Limited and Open Pistol Nationals being in Florida, they were held almost exclusively out west. All we are saying is keep it moving.
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Chuck nailed his own opinion. A lot of shooters want this to move on from Las Vegas. It is not the "match directors" job to put on a proposal and "present it to the board". That is Mike Foley's job. No one said " tear it down". Just move it somewhere else. Most 3 gun matches are west of the Mississippi. Which is the difference between flying and driving for people on the East Coast. The match fee this year is 350.00. That is the highest fee of any three gun match. Higher than FN. So, for that money, shooters shouldn't have to reset., and there should be a dinner. Unless sponsors aren't willing to come in on the USPSA event.
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Awesome videos. I'm put of breath,too. Nice left handed shotgun and pistol shooting. Nice weather for a change! Thanks for posting. I stopped Facebook because politics.
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It was cool. I would like to see it repeated at Area and Section Matches.
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Thats because I fell off the baby wall last year. That was just in walkthrough, though. Signed up, waiting for top secret clearance.
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Thread is useless without pictures
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Nice videos. Yeah, dismantling the 1301 is tedious and time consuming. Similar to Benelli M1 and M2 trigger groups. Lots of specs and tolerances there. I have seen this with dirty gun, reassembled gun after cleaning, and it just happens. I recommend exactly what you did (you will end up buying some of those small parts
) and then smoothing all opposing surfaces on carrier and shell catch, and "rounding/smoothing" all sharp edges on carrier catch plunger and shell catch, and cutting a few coils off carrier spring. Sometimes a piece of brass or wood can get the carrier catch mechanism. I use 600/1500 sandpaper and Dremel buffing compound with buffing insert on Dremel. You seemed to have gotten it fixed, but you will be taking that apart a bunch more times! DVC
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There are two Miller brothers. One lefty and one righty. Both awesome. And of strong opinions. Very unusual to see them in the same place at the same time. Happens sometimes.
) and then smoothing all opposing surfaces on carrier and shell catch, and "rounding/smoothing" all sharp edges on carrier catch plunger and shell catch, and cutting a few coils off carrier spring. Sometimes a piece of brass or wood can get the carrier catch mechanism. I use 600/1500 sandpaper and Dremel buffing compound with buffing insert on Dremel. You seemed to have gotten it fixed, but you will be taking that apart a bunch more times! DVC
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