Early IPSC'er
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Posts posted by Early IPSC'er
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On May 4, 2017 at 8:50 PM, LuckyNo13 said:
Nice to see this post, though I am about seven years late, lol. So, beginning my membership here with bumping up ancient threads. Below is a Colt 1911 set from Jim Hoag, which you kindly mentioned as first echelon in this 2010 post. I worked for Jim from 1978 until 1985, and took the pic below on my last visit to his shop in early 2016. He has now closed the doors and is in retirement. But here is a matched set, a glimpse of the work he did during the days when Ron Lerch and Mickey Fowler were winning the first Bianchi Cup matches with Jim Hoag pistols.
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….Nick Pruitt later went on to work part time with a local gunsmith from Corona, name Wil O Hara, then he left. …
What ever became of Nick? In the mid 70's he and Ray Neal would shoot with us in Oceanside occasionally.
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My wife and I moved to Wyoming a year ago-----in packing up stuff in my reloading room that I had "filed" away I found one of the posters that Rich gave out at the match----big letters: "F*ck Communism" Never was able to actually frame and hang that poster but couldn't bring myself to throw it away either!!
(asterisk is my editing to avoid censorship or offense).
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I think I fit in here - I was a close friend of Bill & Dottie Hahn, and used to shoot with OCPL at the Oceanside Police Range, starting in 1971.
I had no idea so many OCPL shooters were still around!
I came up with the revised name for the club upstairs in Bill's den, after we went IPSC and "Combat" became non-PC - 'Linea de Fuego' - 'Line of fire' in Spanish.
I worked for a large Government agency at the time.
I am proud to have a 2 digit Charter Life USPSA membership number. After I moved to AZ, I met Brian E, and Robbie Latham and his dad. I have a CD of Nyle Lathem, Bruce Nelson (one of the IPSC founders), and myself discussing the start of IPSC - sadly, I am the sole survivor of the three.
Tim LaFrance built several guns for me - I still carry one of his 9mm NOVA pistols. He rented an apartment from me years ago. I saw him in December at the Small Arms Review Gun Show in Phoenix. He had broken his neck racing a sports car, but is well on the mend.
Cross draw holsters came into use because a frequent start position was 'hands clasped at center of chest'. After Tommy Campbell showed up with his chest rig, that position went away. (I'm still in touch with Tommy.)
And I still shoot IPSC at a club my wife & I founded here in NE Arizona (up in the mountains at 6500 feet - we expect more snow this weekend).
I'm looking forward to "looking back" when we used whistles, stopwatches, and stop plates, and ALL guns were made of steel and walnut, not plastic.
OCPL - Oceanside Combat Pistol League
Here you go Slueth
Any idea who the handsome guy with the beard is at the banquet of the Bianchi Cup #1?
here he is shooting the "falling plates"---that's right, the plates weren't hinged, they really "fell" into the mud.
…here's that holster that Tommy wore---my favorite picture; Rick Miller taking a picture of Tommy and his holster (BTW, I talked with Tommy about a year ago at the SHOT show--he said that he had loaned that holster to someone and never got it back!!
…my recollection is a little different than yours re: cross draws. If you recall in the year leading up to (and including) the 1979 Nationals in Utah, Jeff had set up the Cooper Assault Course which required a weak-hand draw from a kneeling position----it was IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish that from a strong side holster without covering your legs with the muzzle---plus the cross draw was significantly faster---the center line start position with the hands was serendipitous (or so I thought)
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Can someone tell me the actual address that the meeting were held at so I can make the pilgrimage? Also, the name and address of the range were the afternoon shooting sessions were held would be good as well.
Darryl
The conference was held at the Hilton Inn which is now a Holiday Inn (1119 Knipp St. on the frontage road at I-70 and Stadium Dr.) …. also home to the Bianchi Cup festivities (at least the early ones, I haven't been to one since 1982)….don't know if they still meet there or not.
The range sessions were NOT held at the Chapman Academy as it didn't exist until almost 3 years after the Columbia Conference. It was held north of town off of Highway 63 at the old MPPL (Midwest Practical Pistol League) on some rough land near some strip-pits. Unfortunately the range has been gone for multiple decades.
The conference was held in Columbia because a local lawyer, Dick Thomas organized it at Ken Hachathorn's suggestion. Dick was IPSC's first VP and later was one of the founding members of IDPA.
Grand days, those.
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I'm writing a history of practical shooting with input from top shooters (current and former), as well as some of the RO's and regular shooters who have been around the sport for a long time. I think it's really neat that a lot of the legends of practical shooting (Brian, Rob, Jerry...) are still around, and it would be a shame not to get their perspectives before they pass....
1) suggestions of people I should talk to (if you can connect me or are that person, even better!)
If you genuinely want insights into the history of IPSC, some people that you should talk to are Janelle Cooper, Dick Thomas, Ken Hackathorn and Rick Miller.
Janelle was involved in almost every facet of the structure of early competition; the "J ladder" (the "J" stands for Janelle) was Cooper's prototype for the man-against-man shootoffs in the very early days. Jeff's idea for a tournament was that all of the events were simply a way to select who would enter the man-against-man shoot off. The Shootoff, not the tournament stages would soley determine the champion. She could give you great insight into the events that led up to the organization of IPSC.
Dick Thomas (partially at the behest of Hackathorn) actually set up the original Columbia Conference and served as IPSC's VP if I'm not mistaken. He's the reason that the conference was held in Columbia Missouri and also the reason (along with Raul Walters) that Ray Chapman later moved there. He could give you great insights into the personalities of the various attendees like Gerry Gore from Africa, Bruce Nelson, Ron Lerch, Ken Hackathorn and Rick Miller). He can probably be contacted thru the newly re-opened Chapman Academy.
Ken H. and Rick Miller were very instrumental in the very earliest stages and both were writers that chronicled the birth pangs and early growth.
I don't remember whom the actual Match Director for the first National Match held in Colorado was---Ron Phillips was the Co. Section Coordinator and I believe that he's still alive.
Also someone from the old SWPL would be valuable to talk to, someone like Dalton or Fichman could undoubtedly give you good insights on the early days.
With no disrespect meant to the three individuals that you referred to, they're relative new comers to the sport from the standpoint of its foundation in that the sport was already established by the time they started shooting.
JMO.
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This is hard to read----I had been told that Gordon was doing better and that in fact he would be at the SHOT show last year, although I never saw him. Like JimmyZip, I was one of the Oceanside Combat Pistol League devotees of Bill and Dorothy Hahn (like 2nd parents to us junior USMC officers in the mid 70's). Gordon was a wonderful and talented person---we're diminished by his passing. RIP my old friend.
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... Speed holsters all over the place, both leather and kydex.
I was surprised to read that Roger's had holsters represented there. The only kydex holster that I was aware of at that time was the "Snick" holster---a company owned by Michael Horne and Michael Harries (of the "Harries flashlight" technique fame). The first Nationals that I recall Bill Rogers attending was in Virginia in 80 or 81. I was squaded with him and he had just left the FBI to start his holster company full time. It's memorable in that he used an IWB holster thru out the match IIRC, which was WAY outside the norm for those times. Typical leather was forward rake worn strong side or crossdraw:
These were exquisite works of craftsmanship---these set me back about 1/2 months pay in the late 70's!! The cross draw really came into play because the "Cooper Assault Course" required a weak hand draw (imagine doing that in today's competitive circle!!) and the easiest way to do it was with a crossdraw. The 78 and 79 Nationals both had stages requiring a weak hand draw and suddenly everybody (except Seyfried) was using a cd.
....A couple "comp guns"....
If by "comp guns" you meant "competition" guns----it was the rage in those days to get a Govt. Model and pretty much only keep the slide and frame---you'll notice in the group pic in the article that even Tommy Campbell of S&W "Supergun" fame is using a Colt 1911. Irv Stone had made up some 6" stainless barrels that Pachmayr had incorporated into guns for Chapman and Raul Walters and eventually alot of others (even Seyfried)--- they made them with and without the ports. The article says that Ray thought that there was less recoil however, he told me that the extra inch provided a cushion to insure that his ammo would make "major" w/o increasing the load and having extra recoil.
If by "comp guns" you meant "compensated" guns----they hadn't come along quite yet. This was still the days of the long slide (Ray had the previous year won the first "World Shoot" in Europe with a Hoag longslide). Hoag was the master of the longslide although the young upstart, Bill Wilson, started buying cut and welded GI slides from Jim Clark, Sr. and retro fitting them to Govt. frames. I had an early Wilson longslide that was a wonderfully balanced piece that I never remember malfunctioning. During the 2nd Bianchi Cup in 1980 a shooter that had done poorly in the IPSC World Shoot, shot quite well with a gun that few had seen before. It was made by Jim Clark, Sr. and called a "Pin Gun" as it had been made to shoot in Davis' Second Chance match. Here's a pic that I took of a guy that I had only briefly heard of---but was intriqued by the "thingy" hanging on the front of his gun:
....that's John Shaw in his "pre-fashion-maven" days when he wore military utility trousers instead of workout suits. He went on to be the top dog for awhile. Wilson made a copy of the Pin Gun but eventually hollowed out the barrel weight and made an expansion chamber prior to settling on the LE (Leatham/Enos) model that was de rigueur for a few years. The rest, as they say, is history........
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Claude Werner, Director of Firearms Training LLC, compiled 5 years of civilian reported shootings from "The Armed Citizen" -- granted, not an exhaustive data field, but also probably not far from the "norm" (if there is such a thing in armed conflict). During that 5 year data field there were 482 reported shootings during which reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots. That's about 1/2 of 1% of the civilian shootings required a reload at all (take away the lion situation and it's less than that). Obviously those figures are going to be irrelevant if you're a gang banger, etc. but as a civilian wanting to defend yourself, even if it's WAY out of line, the probability of a needed reload is remote.
Therefore, just how important is the need to keep our participants from "round counting?" Especially since it encourages poor tactics and degrades efficiency of gunhandling, seeking some street-worthy motive is, again, just creative wordsmithing. It's arbitrarily distinguishing us from IPSC.
The idea that in a realistic situation you lose your ability to count rounds and therefore need to develop the skill to perform effectively from slidelock, is fine. However, under the strain of a "realistic situation" you will also (according to Lt. Col Dave Grossman) have a heart beat rate exceeding 140 bpm, loose your fine motor skills (hence rendering holsters with release buttons inoperable) and there's a very high probability that you'll void your bladder. The statistical probability of having an "undrawable" handgun from a button-release holster and peeing all over yourself is actually greater than the probability of needing to count your rounds. Which of these alternatives should we also seek to simulate in an IDPA event???? And if one, why not the others????
The rules are the rules, don't try to rationalize any practicality to them----they were established autocratically by guys that wanted to make a point----some worked out better than others.
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3 Questions:
1. Has there EVER been a documented case where an individual was killed because they ran out of ammunition after having dropped a partially loaded magazine/moon clip/ammo?
No--at least none that anyone has brought to light.
2. Has there EVER been a documented case where an individual was killed while in the act of emptying their handgun by retaining empty brass/magazines/moon clips?
Yes--at least one very famous case. Police officer in California was found shot to death with his revolver cylinder open and his hand grasping the empties which he had retained in his off hand instead of dumping them and grabbing his speed loader.
3. Is shooting to slide-lock EVER a tactically sound maneuver?
No--the exceptions would be so rare as to defy that they would logically ever happen unless you're fighting the Battle of the Bulge or the Chosin Reservoir.
....and yet under the pretext of "realism" we mandate the former and reward the later. We can attempt to find tactical reasoning for this but it is simply creative wordsmithing---the real reason for this nonsense, is that it differentiates IDPA from IPSC. The same thing goes for the emphasis on the use of cover and "slicing the pie." They're emphasized to simply say, "see, we're not IPSC."
Cover: In the modern world, there is no such thing as cover---well, not enough to count on. In my house there is NOTHING that will stop a 9mm hardball round. Now I'm not against encouraging people to search for and use cover and concealment----however----we have morphed a generation of young shooters whose first reaction is NOT speed and aggression, but cover. Again, I'm not suggesting that people ignore cover---but don't make cowering your initial response to a threat, which, like shooting to slidelock, we're rewarding beyond all rational limits.
Slicing the Pie: The "D" in IDPA is for "Defensive" IIRC. When you start to "slice the pie" you are the predator, not the prey. It's a fine, noble and worthy tactic, but not fundamentally defensive, it's offensive. A skill that you may need???? Perhaps, but born, refined and suitable primarily for fun-house clearly exercises at shooting schools where the interior walls are cinderblock. In post and beam construction where walls are drywall on 2x4's, slicing the pie is a flawed technique unless you're standing a LONG way back from the door jam. If someone ever "comes after" me with a handgun, I deeply hope that they "slice the pie" --- the only thing that would make it better would be if it's dark and they're using a flashlight.
Having been around since the beginning of IPSC in the mid-70's and knowing all but one of the IDPA originators, I can tell you that alot of IDPA is based upon "reaction" rather than on "reality." That's ok---IPSC has rendered itself to a position of tactical irrelevance, but please don't try to rationalize "tactical" reasons for some of IDPA's more unsound rules. It's an insult to a person that thinks.
JMO, YMMV.
EI
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...+10-happened when i was there in 1972. lit fires to burn the rattlesnakes outta the canyons...was always close to being a "controlled burn".
What unit were you with outerlimits???? When did you leave Pendleton??? Did you ever shoot with Bill Hahn and the Oceanside Combat Pistol League?????
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...Camp Pendleton 1978 Infantry Training School in the San Onofre area.
We're firing our 106 Recoiless Rifles which sent out a HUGE backblast area behind the guns.
Someone looks behind us and yipes the whole hillside is on fire and moving towards the ammo storage area.
We're instantly transformed from Marines to firemen and we're throwing E-Tools full of dirt everywhere.
I always tell people that I graduated from the Infantry Training and Small Unit Brush Firefighting School.
Every time we had live or even blank rounds we'd set the hills on fire and have to either fight the fire or evac and wait until it stopped burning.
Fun stuff.
JKSniper--that wasn't the first time that happened---in 1975 I was the Platoon Cmdr. of the 106 RR platoon for 2nd Btn, 5th Marines. Seems like there were lots of fires---during the Santa Anna winds, you could lite up the hill side with the WP spotter rounds!! As much as I loved those things--it was the beginning of my tinnitus--36 years later the ringing is as loud as ever! From your moniker I take it that you went on to Sniper/Recon platoon somewhere????? Who were you with??
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That was about right, for the time. Had it been checkered, it would have added about $100.00.
Was watching a shooting show a couple years ago, about the Team Challenge. Doug Koenig, Jerry Miculek and some white haired guy were being interviewed. Had no idea who the third person was, as we came into the middle of the interview, until he opened his mouth. My wife and I both said at the same time....It's PLAXCO!
I saw Mike at the SHOT show last month in Las Vegas. He's living in Dallas and working for Smith & Wesson--he's gotten old, gray and thicker glasses like the rest of us---he apparantly hasn't gotten thicker waisted like some of us, however!!
Here's a pic of he and his family at the 1980 IPSC Nationals--actually the little kid in the white shirt is my son (now 33)
The boy on the left is Mike's son---IIRC I think that Mike said that he's got a doctorate in something.
Here's Mike in the shootoff at the same match with Ross Seyfried
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Wow. It's insane to see how shooting has evolved.
...slippp, don't confuse "change" with "evolution." JMO
Well when I was reading BEnos's book, he was talking about how the stances have evolved. At least I think he did. I haven't re-read it in a while. lol.
slippp, I certainly didn't mean to sound caustic or critical in my response. My point was that "evolution" connotes "improvement." There seems to be almost nothing genetically similar between today's USPSA events and what we did in the mid-70's. Today's activities are more "different" than "improved."
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Wow. It's insane to see how shooting has evolved.
...slippp, don't confuse "change" with "evolution." JMO
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Here's the one i handled and photographed.
Patrick, do you have any idea regarding how many of these Charlie made? Mickey's the only one that I remember using one and IIRC his experience with it was spotty.
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...I've handled and photographed the Devel Gammon in question (it is in the collection of a huge 1911 buff) and the one I fondled looks not at all like the one in the photo. Even the contour of the comp is different.
As soon as I posted that pic I had second thoughts--it didn't look like what I remembered Mickey shooting. I only got a brief glance up close and he opened the slide to show the funky roller on the feed ramp. Here's Mickey shooting in the Nationals in 80 or 81 (sorry, I jumbled the negatives--maybe an old timer will be able to tell us which) and I'm pretty sure that this is the Gammon gun:
...and here he is in a shootoff with Plaxco using it:
...Patrick, does this one look more like the gun you've seen? I'm pretty sure that this is it, but I could be wrong.
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Hi "Shootersfromthepast",
Who knows what happened to Al Nichols and Buck Toddy? They are one of the first together with Ray Chapman who started IPSC.
Thanks in advance for sharing your information.
tezet
Buck moved to Columbia and lived in a trailer on Ray's range for awhile just prior to Andy Langley coming there. Buck passed away there in the very early 1980's IIRC---it's been along time and little was said about it. PM me.
I don't know about Nichols. There are two guns on Gunbroker that are being advertised as being gunsmithed by him, a Series 70 and a pre-70's Commercial model.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=192839239
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=192839260
Neither are fancy (that's being kind) but might be worth having just because they were worked on by him IF a provable provenance came with them.
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uuh---an accidental discharge could be deleterious to the, ah, well, ah, the Royal Jewels.
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Here are a couple of pics of the range in 1979--you can see how crude the conditions were---they were improved alittle for the 1980 match, but not by a huge margin---Ray was tight with a nickel.
This is the barricade stage, note the guy on the left:
This shows the Practical range. Note that the guy on the right in this pic is the guy on the left in the previous one, so you can see the relationship. You'll note the "stream" on the left of the range ran parallel to the Practical range. This is the stream bed (just behind the berm) where the Cirillo story took place.
Initially Kathy mentioned an article written by Rick Miller. Rick was one of, if not the first gun scribes of IPSC--He and Ken were both from Ohio and close friends. Here's a pic of Rick taking a pic of Tommy Campbell with his new, revolutionary "sternum" holster.
I always really liked Rick--he was a wonderful contributer to the sport.
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Although this is from the 1979 innaugural Bianchi Cup, it shows Cirillo "holding court" (probably telling a joke) with John Bianchi. I don't remember the guys name on the left but he was the H&K rep.
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These ought to do nicely.
Thanks!! That's exactly what I needed.
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Sorry if this is a stupid question but can anyone direct me to IDPA legal full moon clip carriers. Where might I purchase some legal ones? Thanks for you help.
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You know, now that I posted that pic of Fowler, I'm less inclined to state that that gun is the Devel Gammon---IIRC, the Gammon that he used had an electroless nickel looking finish--I suppose that this could have been the gun prior to plating---any of you old timers remember???
Old Race Guns
in Hell, I Was There
Posted
Very cool that you worked for Hoag----that's quite a feather in your cap-----a lot of people aren't aware that Ray Chapman won the first world IPSC shoot in Austria with a Hoag 1911---- his Pachmayr Combat Special that he made famous was an award for winning the match IIRC.