ARES
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Ares,
normally I don't care to answer rumors and groanings that are not documented, or have been first-person witnessed, but in this case I'll make an exception, because I feel some of the points you highlighted were blatantly false.
I share Darth's opinion that, if you had to complain about something during the match, on the range you had the complete IPSC/IROA/Match Staff Hierarchy to report.
If you didn't, it is not fair, nor sportsmanlike, to refer them now. At least it is a consistency and correctness matter.
Now to your remonstrances:
1. I wasn't reported (nor were the MD and RM AFAIK) about such unfairnesses. If you have witnessed some of these, you should have reported this immediately, naming stage, targets and people involved. I'm a certified RO from NROI and took a Level I IROA seminar with president Alexakos. I trust my Italian colleagues: they were selected for this match as the best italian ROs, and I think it is somehow slandering to imply they didn't act according to the rulebook and IROA/NROI creed.
2. I know a couple of less-than-sportsmanlike italian competitors tried to change tube magazines (sorry, no barrel changing, I wonder if you witnessed it or just heard about) on the very first day of the competition. They were (thank God and some true sportsman german competitors) spotted and the RM took a wise decision: all competitors' shotguns were applied a check label on tubes. If you have a look at the Gallery forum, in ESC 2003 random shots post, you'll easily spot these label on the foreend/tube joint. Thus, nobody could have played outside of the rules.
3. I have personally witnessed the DQ of Davide Bellini (member of Italy Limited-Pump Regional Team): he was DQed for usafe gun handling when he accidentally shot a prop during reloading (while moving, gun lower than eye level and not sighting any target). I have also witnessed the discussion MD, assistant MD, and competitor had in the secretriat office, where competitor was asking for the possibility of re-instatement. The MD and assistant MD were very clear (and clever) about this; they told the competitor "...gimme a single rule number of the rulebook as basis for asking your re-instatement and we will fight to death for it. Otherwise, if you can find none, the DQ is fair and there is a damn you, we and everybody else can do about this...". Whenever (if ever) Riccardo and Gavino fought for re-instatement of some competitors, this was done according to the rulebook, with precise quotations, and if (again, any) the competitor(s) were re-instated, this means that their argumentation were accepted without the need of going to an arbitration.
4. Again, I wonder if you talk about witnessed or reported facts. I was on the chrono stage when Rossano Zallocco (member of Italian Limited-SemiAuto regional team) was chronoed. After 6th cartridge shot (28 grams, 7.5 shot size) he was scoring PF 517 (I suspect due to a slightly undeweighted shot weight from factory). He made the PF minimum threshold at 7th shot, because he went to a safety zone and cleaned and thoroughly lubricated his barrel. I am a reloader for handgun ammo, and to me 3 PF points below the PF floor is not cheating, but a possible error somewhere. I can't see anything to complain or laugh about.
5. Edoardo Buticchi (member of Italian Open regional team), on stage 13, at about 12:30 of the first day of the match, shot a plate and it didn't fall (don't want to question if he missed and/or just grazed it). He asked the RO and RM to have a calibration check. The RM, who was probably thinking about handgun rules, said he couldn't have a calibration check on a plate, and let other shooters shoot the stage. Edoardo, rulebook in hand, pointed out that a calibration check on metal plates was in his rights (Appendix H), and the RM agreed to a re-shoot instead of going to an arbitration and having Edoardo re-shoot as well. Nothing to laugh about again, just good plain ol' rules application!
6. This is the basest insinuation you could ever do. Italian Shotgun League (composed of 4 matches and the Nationals) ended on june 15, well before the stages were definitevely approved by IROA, thus no possibility to practice them in a match. The ESC 2003 range was closed from june to mid-august for building and preparing the range, thus none could access it to practice the stages on the real range. The stages were known to all only for the released drawings, thus everybody could have practiced them if they were able to build them from the drawings!
Yes, you can always attribute the meaning you like to other people's words, but the truest meaning is the one you can get from the speaker itself (if you ever mind to ask him!), the rest is personal interpretation whose value is at least questionable.
Finally: I have personally seen a UK competitor in Limited (Semi-Auto) Division that consistently had two shells glued togheter (head to tail) to fasten the reload (i.e. he was able to insert two rounds at time in the tube). It is my opinion that this contravenes Appendix J, that says no speedloading devices are allowed in Limited division. IMO, this was an artificial means of speedloading, and was a little beyond the "creativity" the rulebook allowed. Alas, the RM ruled this legal, and we all had to comply. True sportsmanlike conduct knows when to accept a superior decision, and never whines about it.
One last consideration: if you are not going to attend any more match in Italy for the reasons you reported, I dare to say that in the next future the number of regions you will cross out from your competitions is going to increase.
I beg Administrators and everybody else's pardon if this post might sound less polite than the level you and we all are accustomed to in these forums, but after such a hard work in ESC, I felt really upset by these late and un-documented accusations.
Having said this, I will refrain in the future from answering any rumor or un-documented fact.
Dear Mr. Skywalker,
Let me make 4 comments on your last posting :
1. All these incidents happened - despite the fact that no official protest has been filed during the match - and were witnessed by me and also other shooters from different countries; they are not blatantly false as stated by you.
While living in a free country I consider is as my right to report these incidents at any time to any person during the match, 1 day after, 1 week after or 1 year after the match and maybe I can help to prevent that such incidents are going to happen in the future in an international IPSC-Match again.
2. Topic on equipment change : With your reply you confirm that match officials only took action after some foreign shooters were going to proof it "black on white" by using digital cameras that Italian shooters were violating the IPSC-rules !
3. Topic on power factor problems/chrono stage : According the IPSC-rules, if in the end 7 rounds have been fired over the chrono, the average velocity of the highest 3 shots out of 7 shots must be considered for calculation of the power factor and not only the velocity of the 7th shot - are you sure that this procedere has been followed correct ?
What about the Italian female shooter (later decorated as European Champion in her category) - her ammo made in the beginning at the chrono stage only factor 492 - if I remember right ?
4. Topic on gluing shells together : This "creative" practice may be questionable - but far more questionable seems the "Italian creativity" regarding equipment modifications.
Italian modified shooter (squad 19, temporarily disqualified on stage 14, see my other post) had attached on his shotgun 2 speedloading devices - at least in the opinion of several other modified shooters.
Attached to his shotgun sideways was a lever which allows him to depress the loading floor plate of his shotgun - this makes it easier and faster to load shells.
Furthermore he had attached around the loading port two angle irons which are guiding the shells to be loaded into the loading port and these angle irons allow him to place 2 or 3 shells in a row on his gun and to shove them in the magazine tube altogether with one stroke.
These speedloading devices were approved (as I was told) by your match officials as modified-legal - so it made no sense at this match to file an official protest and to burn 100,-- USD arbitration fee.
By next week I should have a foto document available of these questionable modifications and I would like to receive the judgment of other IPSC-officials around the world (please no Italos) whether these devices should be considered in the future as legal for the shotgun-modified-division.
DVC
ARES
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Ares,
You've made numerous complaints and serious accusations here and now about the ESC 2004, however there were no official complaints or Third Party Protests filed by any competitor from Bavaria (or any other part of Germany) during the match.
Did you actually witness all the alleged events and, if so, with whom did you file your protests at the match? In any case, if you'd like to now:
1. Identify yourself, and
2. Identify the competitors who were allegedly given "special treatment" contrary to the rules
-:I will personally investigate your claims.
In any case, in the interim period, I'm taking up the matter with German Regional Director Fritz Gepperth and German NROI Chief Jurgen Tegge, in order to determine whether IPSC Germany received any complaints from any member of the German contingent.
Vince Pinto
IPSC Secretary
Dear Mr. Vince Pinto,
Yes - I have reported all these incidents during the match to several match officials (i. e. range master, vice range master) and their answer was, in case I could proof these incidents "black on white" I should go for arbitration and then they can do something against it.
No - I have not filed any official protest during the match because I witnessed these incidents only but was not able to proof it "black on white".
If you like - as you offered in your post - you may investigate one claim as an example; but of course it will have no influence on the outcome of the match because the match is over !
1. One Italian modified shooter shooting in squad no. 19 was disqualified (temporarily) for an accidental discharge and/or unsafe gun handling while shooting stage no. 14 - The Courtyard.
I witnessed the following : While the shooter was going down onto his knees at the last shooting position where the targets were placed on the ground, barrel approx. 45 degrees pointing upwards, butt under his armpit - not in the shoulder, sights not at eye level, a slug round left the barrel and the shooter nearly lost his shotgun by surprise.
The female Italian range officer supervising the shooter lifted her hand on occasion of this incident but didn´t stop the Italian shooter immediately, but afterwards after a short discussion with the range officer from Poland also on duty on this stage the shooter was disqualified.
Approximately 15 minutes later the Italian shooter was back in the match !?!
DVC
ARES
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Detlef,
as part of the match organization staff, I'll be glad to reply to the rules violations charges.
Would you be so kind to point out some, since this is the only forum I am member?
Yes, we had some inconsistencies during the whole match, but they were immediately corrected: a member of the Italian Open team on stage 17 started shooting before the start signal, picking up a beep from another stage (or whatever crossed his mind), and he scored a 2.something time, when the best was 4.something.
For some strange reason, the IROA RO gave him 1 procedural for shots before the start signal, instead of having him re-shoot the stage.
This was reported to the RM, and a re-shoot was issued.
Mr. Skywalker,
Nice explanation - perhaps you can give also some explanations to some other topics :
1. On several occasions misses shot by Italian shooters have been recorded on the score sheets by Italian "stage writers" as hits and not as misses !
2. Several Italian shooters changed equipment - barrels, magazine tubes, ammo carriers - between the stages - this is clearly against the rules - isn´t it ?
3. A minimum of two Italian top shooters have been disqualified for a clear accidental discharge by non Italian range officers - approximately 15 minutes later they were back in the match with the help of the vice match director (Italian) and the vice range master (PHI) - with very interesting explanations !
4. Also the chrono-stage was very interesting - for Italian shooters with some "power factor problems " always a solution was found to declare their ammo okay and keep them in the match.
5. In case a Italian shooter missed some steel he called for a calibration-check and in any case he was back several minutes later with a new score sheet to shoot the stage again.
In case other shooters asked for a calibration-check it was not granted - in most of the cases.
6. It seemed that the Italian top shooters trained the original competition stages for weeks in advance - this may not be against the written rules but against some sportsmanlike fairness !
And yes - Mr. Nick A. - beeing the world president of IPSC stated in the closing ceremony "This event was a tremendous success" - but there are several translations/meanings for "tremendous" !?!
My personal conclusion : I will never compete in Italy again - because I never faced in the last 25 years so much bullshit going on during an IPSC-Match !!!
DVC
ARES
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Quote: from Dingus Kahn on 8:37 pm on Sep. 30, 2002Does anyone have a web address for a place to buy speed loaders for shotguns?Dirk
I guess by BROWNELLS you should get shotgun-speedloaders also (search for Tec-Loader).
DVC
ARES
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Quote: from mike45 on 11:17 am on Oct. 4, 2002The first European championships are being held in Italy in 2003 for PSG, and there is a rumour the World Championships will be in the USA around 2005/6.Does anyone know about this, or are taking part in Italy next year. There is a lot of excited people over here eagerly awaiting it and competition to be selected for the British team is at feaver pitch!!Anyone playing?
@ Mike45 :
Yes, I also intend to participate in this event and are waiting for more details - until now only the place of the competition (Terni/Italy) is known to me.
Are there a lot of shotgun competitions in Great Britain and how to get invitations for these competitions ?
DVC
ARES
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Quote: from Larrys1911 on 8:02 pm on Sep. 21, 2002What do you think about this exercise and what timings can your top-shots achieve ?DA Pain DA PAIN!
@ Larrys1911 :
What kind of pain do you mean - in the shoulder ?
If a shotgun is handled in the right manner a truckload of slugs can be shot without any pain and with pure enjoyment.
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Some years ago I have developed a kind of standard-exercise for the shotgun as follows:
6 strings, 8 slugs per string, total 48 slugs, 2 IPSC paper-targets per shooter, no speedloader allowed, start position standing - gun horizontal at hip-height pointing towards the two targets.
The best timings (achieved nowadays in Germany with semi-autos in competitions) indicated in brackets.
25 Meter :
2 slugs per target - reload 4 slugs - 2 slugs per target standing (< 9,5 sec.)
2 slugs per target standing - going prone - 2 slugs per target prone (< 7,5 sec.)
20 Meter :
2 slugs per target - reload 4 slugs - 2 slugs per target standing (< 8,3 sec.)
2 slugs per target standing - going sitting - 2 slugs per target sitting (< 5,2 sec.)
15 Meter :
2 slugs per target - reload 4 slugs - 2 slugs per target standing (< 8,0 sec.)
2 slugs per target standing - going kneeling - 2 slugs per target kneeling (<4,2 sec.)
This standard-exercise is shot in a German shooting-association as a fixed discipline divided in semi-auto and pump-gun-class.
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What do you think about this exercise and what timings can your top-shots achieve ?
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Quote: from Carlos on 6:31 am on Sep. 18, 2002Welcome ARES! Good to hear from fellow IPSC shooters from around the globe.As for modification of speedloaders, there was a small article in the USPSA magazine, Frontsite, regarding the use of wooden dowels glued to the inside of the "pusher" (for lack of another term) and the risk of the dowel igniting a primer - though I have never heard of that actually happening. I believe this common modification is an attempt to increase the regidity of the pusher.Another difficulty with the speedloader is lack of regidity in the tube; a local Master (or GM - cannot remember which) who did well at the National 3 gun (he is also an officer on the tactical squad of a local PD) manufactures his own speedloader tubes on a metalworking lathe - he makes them from correct diameter PVC pipe with a slot milled longitudinaly and uses the standard Tec loader pusher; I believe he attaches a piece of milled alluminum for the lugs to engage the "ears" on the gun. There is much room for improvement in speedloader technology.Regards,Douglas
@ Carlos,
Thanks for the welcome and the informations.
I agree with you, that there is a lot of room for improvement in shotgun speedloader technology.
Anybody or any company working on this topic in the United States ?
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Quote: from kellyn on 7:15 pm on Sep. 17, 20021) and 2) The speedloader is 2-3 seconds faster for me to load 4 shots.3) some people drylube their plunger. some people glue dowels to the plunger. some people use custom brackets.I hate shotgun speedloader but you've got to have them in open class or you're done.
@ kelly,
Me too - I hate shotgun speedloader !
My observations (and own experience) in several competitions is, that in most cases no competitor has a 100% success-rate by reloading his shotgun in a competition with this nice speedloaders - and by throwing 4 shells into the grass you lose a lot of time.
By the way - when you load by hand, do you load single shell by single shell or 2 or 3 shells at a time ?
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Hello,
To engage in an IPSC-rifle match paper-targets in 100 and 200 yards distance - when is it advisable (timewise) to go prone and to shot from a bipod instead of shooting standing unsupported ?
(Edited by ARES at 2:15 am on Sep. 17, 2002)
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Hello from Germany,
May I ask the experts in this forum some questions :
1. To reload 4 shells in a shotgun - is it faster to use a speed-loader or to do it by hand ?
2. What is the time difference (speed-loader versus hand) by reloading 4 shells ?
3. In which way you prepare your shotgun-speed-loader and the original plastic bracket so it works without problems ?
Thanks in advance for any response.
DVC
ARES
European Shotgun Championship
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
Posted
@Orimar3,
So you are telling me that I and approx. 100 other shooters paid 250,-- EURO entry fee and approx. min. additional 1.250,-- EURO per person for other expenses to enable IROA-officials to learn how to supervise a match - thank you very much ! - but please consider that this was a Level IV-Match and not a club level match !!!
Maybe you allow me to tell and teach you and other IROA-officials something :
For purpose to prevent equipment changes or modifications during a match (IPSC-pistol) in Germany and Austria for example, even at some club level matches, we are using a competitor-equipment-control-sheet.
On this sheet several details of the competitors gun and also other details regarding other personal equipment used by the competitor are listed.
This sheet has to be presented to the range officers at each stage - so no chance to play with your equipment and the IPSC-rules.
I was very surprised not to find such type of competitor-equipment-control-sheets at a Level IV-Match - especially because this match was held in Italy ......
So I hope you and other IROA-officials are doing your homework !
DVC
ARES