DrewM
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Posts posted by DrewM
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8 hours ago, MoNsTeR said:
Why on earth would a titanium hammer strut be more likely to fail than a steel one? Titanium is very strong!
Has anyone ever actually seen a broken hammer strut of any kind? Or a mainspring cap for that matter! An indestructible part if ever there was one.
Ti is brittle at not as flexible compared to steel. So if you could do some mythical test of 100 of each in normal cycling however many millions of times, the TI would likely fail more often. I wouldn't expect either to fail to be honest. This is getting deep into the weeds/theoretical. Same with the super-light hammers, they are going to be weaker than a 'normal' hammer...but the chance you break one are getting into playing the lotto levels.
I've seen mainspring housing crack a couple of different ways (both plastic and the cheaper cast types) and I've seen some MIM parts lose an end, etc. I just recently bought a 20+ yr old GI model Springer that had the plunger pin break up at some point in its history - gun still functioned fine...was just an extra surprise when you pulled the pin... -
7 hours ago, ltdmstr said:
Wow! Just so much wrong here. Aside from polishing all contact areas, etc., which is a given, cutting and polishing the hammer hooks and sear angles is the single biggest factor for getting light, smooth, consistent, long-lasting trigger. Those angles mean more than the ridiculous light springs most people use to get the pull weights down. Also, many top level smiths use EGW hammers, sears, discos, and Colt or Wolff springs to produce awesome triggers. And have been doing so for many years. Titanium struts and mainspring caps are gimmicks, and usually fail over time. It's just junk that's to be avoided and has zero impact on pull weight or anything else. True radius isn't the best way, or really even the proper way, to cut a sear. And on and on. But, however you want to do it.
The problem is that the majority of folks don't know how nor have the tools available to properly cut, polish and then measure proper sear angles, hammer hooks, etc. You are correct that those are the most critical in getting the mythical 'perfect trigger', most of the rest is a bunch of small 1% differences that just add up to make a small difference. It's also a touchy subject to get into the nitty gritty details, I really don't want somebody busting out their have-Dremel-me-gunsmith and polishing the nose of their sear and hammer hooks and then wonder why they made an NFA item.
The other angle is that the majority of 'drop in' kits are cut and 'polished' quite well out of the box, all that I have seen/measured have all been cut properly but are relatively conservative in terms of how much of the sear is cut and how big the hammer hooks are.
And nowhere did I say anything bad about EGW, Colt, Wolff, etc they all make quality parts (well, Colt is hit or miss), but the statement was about 'the best', not who makes quality parts.
As for TI struts and other items, yes they are gimmicky, yes they make the ever so slightest difference, yes they will probably break sooner than a proper steel part. Same with most of the rest of the stuff - the uber light extreme super-duper-litespeed-blah-blah hammer is going to fail quicker than a normal one, and makes no difference in pull weight or trigger feel.And yes, a true radius cut is not the JMB proper way to cut a sear, but a huge chunk of things done in a 1911/2011 are not the 'proper way'...whatever that means anymore. But as you noted about other parts, many top level smiths use true radius cut sears to make awesome triggers, and have been doing so for many years.
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If you want the 'best' trigger none of the kits have the best stuff all together. And just to be aware of, most of the differences are so minor I'll bet dollars to donuts that if we blindfolded the majority of folks, they couldn't tell the difference between this, a drop in kit, and a "good" factory setup (assuming all are set to the same weight).
But if you want to humble brag to everybody....
- You want an EE or Koenig hammer if you want the lightest thing possible.
- You want an extra long sear cut down with a true radius tool (or just buy one from John Harrison)
- You want an EGW ball head disco - hopefully it is slight too big for the disco hole or fits 'just right' (the little bit of movement in the disco is felt in the trigger finger - if this fits well it will feel better than having a super-light disco's found in other kits)
- You want an EGW Titanium strut and EGW Ti mainspring plug
- You want a C&S sear spring
- You want whatever trigger tickles your fancy
- You'll probably need a new thumb safety fit the new hammer/sear combo
And then you want to do the following - the idea here is to remove as much friction between the pieces as possible, but you don't want to polish at a level that is removing any material (which is technically impossible) - so there is a give and take, honestly removing rough edges/micro-burrs/etc gets you a huge amount of the way there.
- You want to polish up every surface on the disco and sear that touch's something else until you can see yourself in it - you can ignore the sear nose if you don't know how to inspect/verify it has good contact with the hammer.
- You want to mirror polish the back of the trigger bow
- You want to mirror polish the middle leg of the sear spring
- You want to polish the sides of the hammer that contact the frame.
- You want to polish the inside of the frame where the sear and hammer run.
- You want to polish the inside of the mainspring housing.
- You want to polish the trigger track.
- You want lots of lube for all of it.
Install it all, set a proper amount of pre-travel, set the sear spring to a weight you want, set the over-travel - I like to be conservative with all of these, when you're going for record breaking splits you aren't going to notice a super tight pre and over travel setup, so don't risk a malfunction (or worse) chasing after it. Also, I don't go crazy low on trigger weight, a really good trigger makes up for some weight.
Do all the safety checks you've heard of - you want to check that you the hammer will hit the half cock hooks, that it has good safety/sear engagement, etc - and then run only 2 rounds in a magazine for the first dozen or so rounds you burn down, then go to 3 rounds in a magazine, etc.
I don't want to discount the whole 'it's all gotta be fit together' angle, but the reality is that the majority of frames these days are scary in-spec, it doesn't hurt to measure to be sure. But the majority of 'drop in' kits will work fine in the 'majority' of frames. The next step past the above happens when you can truly measure the hammer hooks and the size of the sear nose. -
On 5/8/2024 at 7:01 PM, Joe4d said:
simplest solution without messing with anythign would be to change the main spring.. Id try a 19lb.. its probably got a 16 or 17 in it..
The mainspring has only a minimal amount of effect on trigger pull weight.
This is one of those 'hard to say' issues without seeing the pistol. Most likely changing to an OE/Colt spec sear spring will do it, the super-light sear springs that the custom builders use are often very hard to increase trigger pull weight much over 3lbs. I have some C&S springs here bent into wild angles, they still pull at 3.25lbs....drop in a Colt spring and they jump to 5+lbs and then can tune down a little. -
This is all speculation, but I would guess they are box-stock 1911 ignition components, it would be difficult to be hand tuning a trigger job in a sub $2k gun - especially one with that level of customization.
Getting 2-3lb triggers in an otherwise 'correct' 1911/2011 with a good/quality hammer/sear usually takes dropping in a C&S light sear spring and maybe a little light tuning of it just to make sure it's balanced (it's very tough to get more than 3-3.5lbs out of the C&S spring).
On the flip side, most wire EDM cut sear/hammer setups give a very crisp trigger these days without any real work done on them, so just tuning the spring can help get the weight right and pre-travel feel right, etc. And I believe all the big-name stuff is wire cut like that, so Wilson, C&S, EGW, Extreme Engineering, etc.
You can also 'mush' up a nice trigger by using too light of a mainspring. -
The other angle is that setting up a good reliable sub 2lb trigger is probably more work than they want to do given the price point/capacity they want to be hitting.
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Some of the stuff about springs here, that thread, the general internet is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
I'll start with the caveat that a lot of us (myself included) can get lost in the weeds on things that don't really matter. A 1911/2011-style gun will work with a HUGE range of spring rates. A 5" 9mm can work fine with a 7lb spring or a 15lb recoil spring and likely even higher (technically it will work fine once with no spring). So there is a lot of margin to work with here. Also, we can't dismiss the role the mainspring has, the profile of the FP Stop, the profile of the hammer, the hole where the strut mounts on the hammer, the curve of the strut, etc (some of that means so little I'll bet dollars to donuts people can't tell a difference in a blind test) - but it all effects how the slide moves back and the speed it will do so.
The reality is that cutting a few coils off of most recoil springs is going to have a fairly minor impact on spring rate (at least for 4.25 to 5" 1911 style guns) - I just threw some guess-timate type numbers into a spring calculator, then "cut" a good 1/4" off the spring and the spring rate changed by less than 10%...sounds dramatic, but your 10lb spring is now a 10.9lb spring - that's probably within the margin of error and wear on the spring.Then just to dive into the completely silly nitty-gritty of it all, and just in case folks aren't completely aware - spring rate is the amount of force to compress a spring a certain distance (can be rated in lb/in - lb/ft - n/mm -etc) - notice how nobody advertises the distance part with recoil springs (so is it 10lbs/in 10lb/ft 10lb/mm..). Now a variable rate spring will change that as it will have a curve on spring rate that goes from lower weight to the rated weight - if this were really important there would be a published chart showing the rate - or at least a starting weight and an end weight. Pre-load does not change spring rate - compress the spring by 25% - it still takes the same force to compress the next inch/mm of travel as it does uncompressed. Total spring load remains the same.
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8 hours ago, Chillywig said:
I ordered the Dawson springs to try
Still not sure how to interpret this? You mean variable springs? Or less somehow equals more?
As DDC said, it seems backwards, but cutting coils off increases spring rate. Even on a variable rate spring.
Take a 10lb spring - cut a couple of coils off and it may become an 11lb spring...not a 9lb spring.If you get to the point where you are really tuning your gun to that degree, it pays to have a way to measure spring rate, even so you can confirm when your springs are good/bad, you can verify how the spring rate changes over time, etc. They aren't expensive, and even relatively easy to make yourself if you are so inclined.
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9 hours ago, BadShot said:
What makes you say Dan Wesson quality has come down very recently?
A couple of folks I know have had so-so experiences with them very recently, and then they've made some stranger design decisions - keep in mind that this is all coming from a brand that was very recently one of the best around - Dan Wesson was always the go-to 1911 before you made a pretty big step up to the Wilson/Nighthawk levels.
And then some other folks I know who have some 'inside industry' kind of knowledge have said some things about the 'partnership' with Colt hasn't been all good, etc. Who knows, could all be BS....or maybe they're struggling but for not any of the conspiracy type reasons, etc (a lot of gun makers were doing very well during the pandemic, now the bubble popped - so who made good plans for when the bubble died, etc). -
On 3/28/2024 at 12:16 PM, Tokarev said:
Sub compact tiny 45 Autos fall into this category. "Yeah that would be cool! I'd love to see an ultra tiny 45 Auto!" This is followed by, "Hey this thing kicks like a mule!"
With all that said, adding an optic cut and/or rail to the legacy 1911 is a pretty conservative step. This was radical or blasphemous ten or fifteen years ago but I think the market is ready now.
Ha, this was me. Found a lightly used Bul 3.25" single stack 45 on an alloy frame - made it reliable'ish, worked it over everywhere else, made it 'comfortable' to shoot (had some hotspots)...it's the textbook definition of great carry gun, so small and easy to carry, but it kicks like a pissed off mule. But while you can't run more than 50 rounds through it without taking a Motrin, it's dead nuts accurate...I don't see a huge difference in it and a commander sized until I get out 20 yards...and I can't say that about any sub-compact 'full' caliber gun. -
13 minutes ago, Tokarev said:
Yes I'm sure 45 and 1911 are still essentially synonymous with each other. I didn't mean to imply that SIG should ignore 45 but rather they should make the 1911-X in 9mm as well.
SIG is supposed to have a 4.25" version of this new gun coming to market soon. I assume it will be steel frame. I think a lightweight Commander length gun with an optic cut and a flashlight rail might make a nice general carry gun.
You're right that optics ready single stacks are kind of a rare bird. Frankly I'm shocked Springfield didn't add the Prodigy optic plate system into the 2024 TRP update.
I think they probably will/would offer a 9mm option, providing that this model sells well - so here's hoping it doesn't have any design issues.
One thing I do chuckle about, and lots of gunmakers will almost outright say it, but there is a HUGE chunk of people who say they want to buy XYZ....but then when XYZ comes out, nobody buys it - so when you see a lot of 'conservative' type designs, that is why.
And you and me (and basically everybody) was shocked there were no optics options on the TRP, granted the AOS may not work well on a 45 (I never really measured any of that), but they also have the setup that was developed for the Echelon - which IMHO is an even better setup - no plates so the optic sits that much lower and is still secure. -
I had a few minutes to do a comparison of some springs. I only had 10lb springs in commander and govt in the same style (variable) to compare...and I threw one normal spring at govt length as another data point (in 11lb). You can see the variable rates are a little shorter. And the 5" vs 4.25" you can see how the windings are different - so a 5" spring in a 4.25", especially if you are space limited may not work. The 'stock' 12lb EGW spring has likely taken a 'set' already as it probably has 400-500rnds through it by this point.
Cutting springs is fine, but one should invest in a method to measure the spring rate to make sure you aren't getting some wild number - cutting a spring makes it heavier - not lighter.
The 10lb spring had no problem with the EGW guide rod, the plug hit the slide stop no problem. Wolff does go down to a 7lb commander length spring.
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12 hours ago, Tokarev said:
I do agree that SIG is missing the boat here by not offering essentially this same gun in 9mm and/or as a hicap.
Believe it or not 45 outsells everything (in single stack) by a pretty good margin. If anything I would bet they are going to release 45 first...and see how it sells then consider adding 9mm down the road.
Honestly I'm shocked by the lack of optic options for 1911's, there is a giant hole there - sure you can get them if you special order from the higher end semi-custom makers (Wilson, Nighthawk, etc). Dan Wesson has one model, but their quality has come down very recently. Kimber has a couple...but uhhh..Kimber. Then I think there are a couple of options at the very bottom of the market. So maybe Sig thinks this is something that will be popular, you can't really sell any other model of firearm these days without an optics mount on it...but somewhere 1911's get ignored. -
When I have a few I'll see what a commander spring looks like in the EGW guide rod, a spring for a 5" gun is going to be a problem in a lot of cases regardless of this specific EGW setup, my commander springs are about an inch'ish shorter than govt springs - and with that comes with less coils. Wolff does make commander springs down to 7lbs.
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Make sure there are no 'sharp' edges around the safeties, the grip safety, etc...even things that don't feel 'sharp' can dig in after a few rounds - it's so common anymore on almost any 'off the shelf' 1911, just a slight edge of something, etc somewhere and then 50 rounds later you have a sore spot, drawn blood, have a blister, etc. Honestly I've seen this on some multi-thousand semi-custom's as well.
Oh and LOK palm swell are amazing on a 1911, providing they fit your hands, and they offer plastic, Al, and brass depending on how much you want your gun to weigh at the end. For reference that is a Chen magwell at the bottom - the top and the bottom (near the magwell) are basically 'normal' size for a 1911 grip, the palm swell piece is fatter, and the piece that comes in near the bottom is probably about 'thin' grip in width...it's all rounded and very 'ergonomic' friendly.
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Yes, it should fit fine, here is a picture of a Wolff variable over the same Guide Rod.
The 5" is tighter, but also will fit a Wolff spring, but the spring barely fits over the guide rod.
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On 3/4/2024 at 10:49 AM, shred said:
Pin diameter is the important one. FWIW 2011 slide stops (the pin part) are quite a bit longer than 1911 slide stop pins.
There's usually some tuning to do on the back where the plunger hits depending how you want them to work and maybe the internal lug.
A 1911 slide stop and a '2011' slide stop are (should be) the same length/size/everything. The only 'wider' parts in a "normal" 2011 are the trigger and magazine release (although I should qualify that as I'm sure somebody makes something custom that goes beyond 'spec' sizes).
The pin diameter is important, but EGW makes a couple of different sizes if you need, and keep in mind that the pin and barrel may have been fit together (well the barrel lugs would have been fit to whatever-spec size slide stop). The 'spec' number should be .200, but it's pretty common in lower-priced 1911/2011 models to have a smaller pin diameter (.195-.198 seems to be pretty common).
The difference between calibers is on the magazine side of the slide stop, so the 9/38/etc will have a different design to catch the magazine. -
For disco stuff, I like to do a few things;
- Light round over of the disco rail to breach face, nothing crazy in terms of radius, but more than simply breaking the edge. Some folks go crazy and do the Marvel cut, I think it's a little overkill - but one mans overkill is another persons bare minimum.
- high-grit-sand and polish the breach face and disco rail, and I go up to 800-1000 grit paper and then hit it with a polish wheel and compound - I don't need a mirror finish - but close. It needs to be 30yr old scotch smooth... Don't forget the disco pocket, don't need to go crazy, but one of my slides had a pretty sharp edge.
- I de-bur the disco hole and sand it down with some sanding sticks and more polishing pads - I think getting the burrs out is more important than anything here.
- I've noticed on a lot of disconnectors (Wilson, EGW, Harrison, C&S) that there are some sharper edges on the ball head. I knock them back with a light sanding - I'm not changing the angles or rough dimensions, just smoothing it out.
- I'll also polish up every surface that contacts another piece of metal on the disco - again I don't need a mirror, but close. So the ball head, the piece that rides in the sear, the trigger side and the sear spring side. If you watch some of the Atlas videos on YT, you'll see they mirror finish the disco and sear - you need to do that if people are paying, you don't need to go quite that crazy for yourself, but you want to get closer to them than just dropping a part in.
- I'll polish up the sides of the sear that ride in the frame and the internal slot where the disco rides.
- I'll polish up the frame side as well (there are some stones that do this nicely).
- On the trigger shoe I'll 'round over' the edge that the disco sits on and polish the flat side up.
- I polish the middle legs of the sear spring that rides on the disco
A lot of that is really small benefit changes, but do a lot of 1% changes and it adds up. But when you get it all together and oiled up, you'll find the disco will ride with none of that 'gritty' feel that is pretty normal with 'drop in' type of setups - and you'll barely feel the disco against the slide (even with a higher riding disco). It then lets you run a little more tension on the sear spring - you get really nice trigger reset clicks/feedback - and a very crisp trigger...but still be relatively light weight.
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On 2/16/2024 at 4:43 PM, HOGRIDER said:
Knowing the folks personally at Deep River, I don't think this is the case. I honestly feel that their "kit" is going though a series of final hand fitting, polishing, adjusting, and dimensionally checking to take out the fine tuning and polishing work that you and I would normally do prior to final installation. Of course, the end user will need to adjust the final desired weight of the sear spring.
I also feel Deep River's custom kit is similar to what Bob is doing with his EXCELLENT Brazos Pro Performance Tuned Trigger Group; of which I also have personal experiences with:
Is that confirmed? Or just a feeling? Honest question, as some folks do the extra work, and some don't. For instance the Thunder Mountain folks aren't doing that, they are just re-selling a pre-packaged kit from whichever manufacture (They sell EE, C&S, EGW, etc). As you mentioned Brazos does do a little extra with their kits.
I think a lot of folks misunderstand how much or little work is needed with good quality sears/hammers these days, EDM wire cut stuff is amazingly well done right out of the box, I like to do a little extra these days just to say I did it - but I have bought plenty of 'drop in' trigger kits and dropped them straight into a 1911 and they all worked fine...and honestly they will get you 85-90% of the way to a full on custom trigger job, tweak the spring a little and the over/under travel to tighten that number up a lot. -
On 2/15/2024 at 9:16 AM, HOGRIDER said:
If I were wanting to update a Prodigy with EXCELLENT quality parts that are ready to drop in, this would be my go to:
https://deeprivercustoms.com/product/trigger-kit/
Minor adjusting of the sear spring to get the pull weight your after!
The EE ignition kit is very highly rated by a bunch of folks.
That is a pricey kit though, you can get basically the same with this - EE2 LiteSpeed Trigger Group – 5 Piece – SA Prodigy – Thunder Mountain Custom (1911parts.com) And then pick out the trigger you like - an Atlas trigger adds $60 (Mike/Thunder Mountain has the other styles of EE hammers/kits as well to match your style/needs).
Although if it were me, I would buy the 3 piece kit, a C&S sear spring, and then pick the hammer spring that I need for the setup, but I have a box of parts here, so I don't always need all the extra stuff...lol Throw the sear in a Harrison jig to give it a True Radius cut, polish up the disco, sides of the sear, and the 'in frame' parts of the hammer and live in the bliss of a trigger job that I barely notice while shooting fast.
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On 2/15/2024 at 10:11 AM, MikeBurgess said:
I didn't read every response so this may have been mentioned already.
When tuning sear springs for action shooting AKA shooting fast sometimes. It is important to keep the sear and disconector legs in balance. If you have comparatively too much reset pressure having doubles and or drop to half cock can happen when shooting close targets fast. Basically having too much reset pressure on the trigger produces a forced reset when we relax our hands to shoot fast and the slide closing bumps the trigger back into our finger dropping the hammer, hard enough bump and it doubles lighter bump and drop to half cock.
I have fixed this issue for a couple people myself included. In most cases the final trigger weight was lower than when the issue was happening.
That's basically how I was taught as well, make both legs even weight (or so very close to the same), if you have a relatively sensitive trigger scale (most digitals), you can measure as you are building up the bottom end of the gun, as you pull the take up you can see a measurement, and then as you pull the sear you can see how it stacks on top of it. -
9 hours ago, Sarge said:
’m admittedly not a gunsmith but I found some things on my prodigy that are not so easily fixed as they were in this thread. Probably has a lot to do with cerakote thickness etc but still.
EGW ignition kit
Sear would not fit in my frame at all without a lot of sanding in a very confined space and polished the sides of the sear.
17# mainspring barely made a dent in proven ammo with stock FP. I bought a Cheely extended FP to put in but I still thought stock should have worked.
Disconnector took a ton of polishing to fit in the frame.
Hammer strut pin hole is so big that pin just slides through and falls out. Now to order a pin kit and hope it fits through the strut.
EGW GUIDE ROD ASSY is practically a press fit in the slide. Takes light taps with a hammer to install and remove.
As far as EGW keeping items in stock
I know it won't be a popular statement, but I'm kinda 'meh' on EGW stuff. Don't get me wrong, the parts are all very good quality, but the fit is almost always an issue for me, parts always end up being too over-sized that then requires some amount of extra work to fit them. That's great when you have a really poorly fit gun, or just want that last little bit of uber-tight custom fit, but man you can spend a lot of extra time fitting stuff. -
I'm always wary of the firing pin in most 1911/2011 models, in order to pass drop tests most manufactures put in heavy FP springs and super light Titanium FP's. Somebody mentioned putting a pencil in the barrel, point the gun up and fire and see how far the pencil moves, that is a great test. I do it with some cheap 5" pieces of delrin I found on Amazon. In a 'weak' factory setup the Delrin rod will barely clear the barrel when I do the test. Swap out their FP spring and put in a Wilson or EGW FP and the delrin rod will now hit the ceiling with authority when I do the test.
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Honestly if it were me, I'd almost be raising hell with MPA, I can't believe they would release a gun like that.
As for aftermarket, being a lefty you're kinda screwed in the amount of options available in the market, but don't be afraid to file one or both sides down to whatever dimensions you like and then spray bomb it after.
Prodigy with EGW internals having light strikes
in 1911-style Pistols
Posted
I generally replace the FP and FP spring in any 'production' 1911/2011, I'll use a steel pin from EGW/Wilson/etc and I have a bin full of Wolff extra power springs.
A lot of production guns have a lightweight/Titanium FP and a high power spring in them, they do this to make the gun 'drop safe' in whatever tests are done. It's fine'ish out of the box with a stock mainspring, but change it out and you can run into light strike issues. That is likely the issue (as others have said as well).
You will be making the gun slightly more 'dangerous' from a drop aspect, but I believe the real 'failure' is if you drop the gun exactly in the right spot/right way - any angle/deviation and the risk drops pretty quick to basically zero.
A good test is the usual make sure the gun is unloaded/etc, then take a plastic/delrin rod/plastic pen and drop it down the barrel, cock the gun, point it straight up and yank the trigger. With the delrin rod I have, it will barely clear the top of the barrel - replace the FP/FP Spring and it will smack into the ceiling.