oldmanjack

Sorry bret my mistake excuse the oversite. Okay then I am wrong in the interpretation of rule 5.2.4.1 and would like to thank you all of contributing an enlightning me on rule 5.2.4.1. I just want to add rule 11.8.1 which states: "Interpretation of these rules and regulations is the responsibility of the IPSC Executive Council". Also rule 11.8.2 which states:"Persons seeking clarification of any rule are required to submit their question in writing, either by fax, letter or email to IPSC headquarters." In spite of rule 11.8.1 & 11.8.2 I would like to thank the fellowship on the Brian Enos forums and our host for their contribution and their input in acting as Amdassadors and an Executive Council in itself in the enlightenment of I.P.S.C members such as myself. I got my answer here which is the best Executive Council that can be found on the subject of I.P.S.C. anywhere. Best Regards & Thanks

Okay to summarize so far we have pjb45 has stated: "5.2.4.1 takes presedence over all other rules as it is stated." bret and Schtzenmeister have stated: "The divisional requirements in appendices are overruled" And we have terrydoc pointing out the actual common practice that is current today but not necessarily what rule 5.2.4.1 is stating? I would like to think that rule 5.2.4.1 is a beginning for at the least leveling the playing field with reference to USPSA rules governing divisional placement rules in order to level out the playing between standard division and open division?

Schutzenmeister....does that mean I can start a match in contravention of divisional equipment placement because the match has a stage that meets the requirements of rule 5.2.4.1? You interpret the rule by stating..."The divisional requirements in the appendices are overruled"? When exactly are they overruled and how? We already know the circumstances when they may be overruled it is indicated it rule 5.2.4.1. Then given rule 5.2.4.1 I can start a match in contravention of divisional equipment placement and not have to worry about contravening rule 5.2.5.3? As long as there is a stage in the match that meets with requirements of rule 5.2.4.1? Am I understanding you correctly or woul you like to elaborate?

Yes bret I get that would be rule 5.2.5.3 that pjb45 has already mentioned. Given rule 5.2.5.3 what is the alternate way on exploiting rule 5.2.4.1? Is putting the earth magnet in your pocket the only solution in order to take advantage of rule 5.2.4.1? Okay let me put it another way, when, how and why would this rule (5.2.4.1) be implimented or allowed by a range official? Does this really need to be in the rule book given the consensus so far? it is pretty much cancelled out with the implimentation of rule 5.2.5.3 or is it? Rule 5.2.4.1 does have a portion that states, "this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules". When would that portion of the rule be considered by a range official? This is the portion of rule 5.2.4.1 I am trying to undertsand better. Does this mean I can permanantly install a magnetic magazine holder in contravention of divisional equipment placement rules because there is a stage that meets with the requirements mentioned in rule 5.2.4.1? As long as I do not use it other than a stage in the match that meets with the requirements of rule 5.2.4.1? Is rule 5.2.4.1, my get out jail free card for table or barrel starts? It is not enough to make a brief statement and chalk it up to a lost cause in a topic that still has not concluded with a definite answer. Okay, okay...at the least help me understand its application and its allowance, in its implimentation. I think there is something to learn from the propper implimentation of this for a range official as well for a competitor...so help me out here guys?

Okay you have a point with regard to rule 5.2.5.3 that still does not explain clearly the use and application of rule 5.2.4.1. Is it okay if we use a pair 5.11 tactical pants with that small cell phone pocket and put the earth magnet in there and slap my magazine onto that upon the start signal given the scenario with respect to rule 5.2.4.1? I am trying to wrap my head around the need and purpose of including rule 5.2.4.1 in the latest edition of the I.P.S.C rule book and whether or not it is being truly applied in scenarios it makes referance to? Is there any devil's advocates out there that can disect this dilema of when and how rule 5.2.4.1 would be applied by a range officiel and how a competitor may exploited it for favorable results without being thrown in open division? Remember that the pistol is empty in its safe condition placed on a table for a table start along with all required magazines in order to complete the course of fire for example.

Okay...waktasz...tell you what I will experiment with the idea and get back to you with the outcome. Meanwhile let's get back to the interpretation and clarification of rule 5.2.4.1. pjb45 stated that the world shooting body of I.P.S.C can come up with a particular solution in order to potentially close the loophole. Well it all depends on the stage procedure. I shot a stage recently that required an empty gun be placed on the table in its safe condition with of course the hammer down and all the required magazines be placed on the table next to the gun for a start. This was a medium course and you were required only to use the loaded magazines placed on the table in order to execute and complete the course of fire. This is where a magnetic magazine holder like the ones offered by Ghost or Double Alpha and Black Scorpion shine. But if you are shooting in the divisions mentioned in the opening post and must respect divisional equipment placement then you may be at a bit of a disadvantage if we compare with equipment placement in open division. Rule 5.2.4.1 levels the playing field between standard, production & classic divisions in relation to open division in such a scenario with reference again to rule 5.2.4.1. So the question here is how can we in standard, production and classic take full advantage of rule 5.2.4.1 to equal the playing field with equipment placement on par with open division competitors in such a scenario. I do not know how better to present this discovery in rule 5.2.4.1 as it refers to a particular start scenario but would like to exploit it with all of your help.

The way I see it...there are a lot of earth magnets that are being sold on ebay of say a dimension of 3/8" x 1 1/4" dia.. I would acquire one of these and fit it out with an industrial strength hook & loop (Velcro) and attach one end onto the center front of the belt and one to the back of the earth magnet. This basically means you can install the earth magnet on or off on demand with respect to stages that would fall under rule 5.2.4.1. Just before you walk up to the start position or better yet...when the command "Make Ready" is given...you calmly pull the earth magnet out of your pocket and affix it to your belt with the hook and loop (Velcro) you had installed on your rig the night before say. If you shoot in the divisions mentioned initially in this post...the earth magnet must be set-up in a way for you to be able to put it on or take it off based on the stage requirement with respect to rule 5.2.4.1. Otherwise there is a danger of you being thrown in open division because you are not in conformity with rules governing equipment placement in those divisions. In other words the earth magnet goes on prior to commencement of the stage with respect to rule 5.2.4.1 and comes off after the command "Range is clear" is given by the officiating range officer, always with respect to rule 5.2.4.1. I know a lot of you reading this are saying that is cheating. Remember that I.P.S.C is a game and most importantly "Freestyle" and all I am doing is gaming it out and trying to find a way with respect to the rules...in this case rule 5.2.4.1 in order to gain an edge.

How would you interpret I.P.S.C rule 5.2.4.1 with reference to the revised edition of January 2017? Rule 5.2.4.1 states the following: "When a Competitor Ready Condition requires that magazines or speed loaders be placed on a table or similar, the competitor may retrieve and carry those items anywhere on their person after the Start Signal, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules". This rule if you will to my understanding contradicts the rules with reference to Standard, Production and Classic division under I.P.S.C rules governing divisional equipment placement for the divisions mentioned above. Am I to understand that I can place an earth magnet lets say attached with a industrial strength velcro in the center of my body on my belt for say a stage that requires what is stated in rule 5.2.4.1 and I will not be thrown in open division? I am trying to game it out here given I.P.S.C is freestyle. Is this a loophole that gamers in the above mentioned divisions can take advantage of? Or am I reading this all wrong.