Is this beyond +P?

[lpspinner]

Here's the situation....

I just finished up all my 200 gr bullets and going back to 230.

So I loaded a couple hundred of each.

200 rounds each of Montana Gold and Xtreme 230 grain ball with 4.7 grains of Titegroup (My normal load for these)

25 rounds of 230 gr bear Creek RN with 4.5 gr of Titegroup (testing)

What happened it seems is my Dillon D Terminator is acting weird. It calibrates and reads the 50 gram check weight, but in actuality it's reading 6.3 gr of Titegroup as 4.7

I discovered this after my trip to the range. After finishing up the last of my 200's, I use the 230's. I notice these felt like +P rounds. I know, cause I've shot a lot of Federal HST 230's +P ammo

I examined the shell casings and none were split nor cracked. In fact they looked normal. The primer wasn't blown back at all either. None of the signs of excessive pressure was there.

I started to load a couple hundred more of the Bear Creek at 4.3 thinking 4.5 was a little too hot. After I finished, I started playing around and noticed the scale all of a sudden changed. I disassemble some of the loaded rounds and they were now reading 6.3 gr even though I had done a lot of checking during the loading session. I ended up pulling all the Bear Creeks and reloading to the REAL 4.3 gr.

My question is if this is considered +P, then I won't pull the 250 rounds I have left of the MG and Xtreme.

[G-ManBart]

Since the Hodgdon reloading center shows 4.8gr as max with either style bullet, I'd say those are way past +P....you're talking 1.5gr over, which is 33%. I certainly wouldn't shoot them.

[gordonm1]

It's times like this when you wish you had a large frame revolver chamberd in .45 ACP to shoot the hot loads.

Seriously, I'm not sure if this would be safe in any gun.

[open17]

That's REALLY HOT. I would approach with caution, but if you decide to shoot

them chrono a few---be interesting to see what the PF is. And get that

scale fixed!!

Titegroup loads to make major run 4-4.3 with a 230, 4.8-5.0 or so with a 200.

[Vlad]

I wouldn't shoot them, on the other had our idea of major is very far from full power loads in a .45

[lpspinner]

Thanks for the advice.

Since, I'm going to be in another state for a little bit, I won't have a chance to try and Chrono one. I am curious as to how really hot these are. To me, they felt no different then the Federal's HST +P rounds.

The good thing is that since the Bear Creeks were crimped with the Dillon Taper crimp die, I was able to reuse the bullets. The MG & X-T's were crimped using the Lee FCD, so I doubt I can reuse those as the die squeezes the bullet from the case mouth down.

The bright side is that since I won't be around, I can send the scale off to Dillon with the RMA they gave me.

On the other hand.... don't powder manufacturers tend to publish less then max loads to protect themselves for liability issues? That means, my 6.3 may not be 33% over "max"? Like I mention, of the hundred so rounds I actually shot that night, none show signs of excessive pressure.

[MT_Bear]

Patrick Sweeney had a great article in Guns and Ammo last year. He was pretty emphatic that the reloading manuals should be followed, and that believing that the manuals were too conservative was a receipe for disaster.

here is the article: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Scary+Variables?packedargs=pagenum%3D2

[rhyrlik]

On the other hand.... don't powder manufacturers tend to publish less then max loads to protect themselves for liability issues? That means, my 6.3 may not be 33% over "max"? Like I mention, of the hundred so rounds I actually shot that night, none show signs of excessive pressure.

What do you know to be a sign of excessive pressure in a 20,000 PSI round?

[Irish10]

I had a scare like that a week or so back. Using AA#2 and 185 fp Berrys my load was supposed to be 5.2 and the scale verified it but a check on a different scale revealed it to be 8.8! My visual check told me it didn't look right and I'm glad I followed my gut. I don't have a lot of faith in digital scales now and am going to invest in a good deam/balance scale.

[Punkin Chunker]

.... don't powder manufacturers tend to publish less then max loads to protect themselves for liability issues?

I think I saw this on the list of famous last words somewhere between, "Y'all watch this," and, "It's okay -- I've done it this way before."

[earlbob]

I have been using my beam scale for about 25 years. It is real accurate and consistent. I made myself some various check weights and have kept them in a small plastic bag near the scale all this time. I check it frequently, couple times a week when I am using it. I took a penny, a dime, a quarter and some small metal pieces and weighed them, wrote the weights down on a piece of paper and use that for a reference. This would help those who are nervous about their digital scales also.

earl

PS. don't read the label on a bottle of pop and convert the 40 sugar grams to grains then weigh out sugar to see how much you drink in 12 oz can. It WILL depress you!

[Guy Neill]

DON'T shoot even one! It only takes one to destroy the gun. Even if it's not enough to destroy the gun, why subject the gun to the overpressure?

Guy

Thanks for the advice.

Since, I'm going to be in another state for a little bit, I won't have a chance to try and Chrono one. I am curious as to how really hot these are. To me, they felt no different then the Federal's HST +P rounds.

The good thing is that since the Bear Creeks were crimped with the Dillon Taper crimp die, I was able to reuse the bullets. The MG & X-T's were crimped using the Lee FCD, so I doubt I can reuse those as the die squeezes the bullet from the case mouth down.

The bright side is that since I won't be around, I can send the scale off to Dillon with the RMA they gave me.

On the other hand.... don't powder manufacturers tend to publish less then max loads to protect themselves for liability issues? That means, my 6.3 may not be 33% over "max"? Like I mention, of the hundred so rounds I actually shot that night, none show signs of excessive pressure.

[gm iprod]

I'm with Guy on this. 200 bullets, primers and cases is way cheaper than a new hand, I think they run out at about $100K, plus the ruination of your sex life.

Powder charts are assembled quite carefully to ensure that the ammo we are loading with the data provided is safe and at the top end does not exceed known (SAAMI) pressure limitations. Yes in some respects it is done to ensure the provider of the data is not sued, because that is bad for business. Most top lods in a manual are at maximum or just below maxcimum pressure for that load combination. With certain powders .1gr or .2gr more, sometimes, causes pressure to go nuts (that's a technical term for over pressure). Many fast burning powders (what we use) are quite happy up to a point. Then all hell breaks loose. I bet the man at the testing facility could tell you some stories.

Plus they set the levels so that lunatics that fiddle with their guns are also likely to be safe.

Going over the specified loads is inherently unsafe. But if you are prudent (yeh right) you can push it a little. But you must make sure that you have all your eggs inthe correct basket and the stockpile of rabbits feet is up.

We have all seen the efforts of a few people who just seem to think that they know more than a balistitian, well I don't know more than a balistitian and I tend to not push fast burning powder to it's limits.

More importantly on this subject. I have often found that the laods that are close to maximum but not at it, are usually the most accurate. Example

38Super -

115 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .355" 1.245" 4.7 1107 25,000 CUP 5.3 1208 31,800 CUP

I happen to load 4.9gr, you would expect to get about 1140fps or thereabouts. I load to 1.225" with a Zero 115gr JHP. I get in my 6" gun about 1200 fps, that's the same velocity as the max load. But I have changed two things. OAL, Projectile make and barrel length. So testing and checking pressure signs is required. I would love to find out what 5.3gr would do. But at my shortened OAL I think I would be pushing my luck a little too far.

Pat Sweeney has been there done that got the T-Shirt and Hat. He has information that he has gathered over years of being privy to inside information that you and I just don't get. I think he should be listened to.

I spent an afternoon in 2003 at Hodgdon at Shawnee Mission in KS, what a set up. Sone of thos eguys are brilliant. What they know about powders is unbelievable, and that was just the front office people.

[Punkin Chunker]

. . . Going over the specified loads is inherently unsafe. But if you are prudent (yeh right) you can push it a little. . .

. . . So testing and checking pressure signs is required. I would love to find out what 5.3gr would do. But at my shortened OAL I think I would be pushing my luck a little too far.

I think you make a great point. There is a world of difference between working up to, then 'teensing' over the published loads, and the counterpoint of, "Oops, too much powder. I wonder what this overcharge will do?"

[usmc1974]

What is your Hands worth? or your face. It's your call.BE SAFE

[earlbob]

Pulling bullets is not all that troublesome anyways. I have pulled enough that it has helped me to really pay attention and SLOW down when reloading. Keeping an eye on powder charge weight, consistent checking of the OAL during the process of loading several hundred rounds,the scales accuracy itself and watching the cases as they go buy looking for a double charge to sneak in on me are priority. That is something which usually only could happen when I have problems with the primer feed or have a primer get crushed and twisted around in the case and have to remove it. I do wonder however with all the sincere admonitions concerning exceeding the manufacturers load charts why we as a group seem to be rather consistent in doing that very thing with the various 9mm and some of the 38 super duper calibers.

earl

Edited February 21, 2010 by earlbob

[Duane Thomas]

4.7-gr. Titegroup with a Laser-Cast 200-gr. LSWC gave me a 170 pf out of a 5" Wilson .45. So I'd say that 4.7-gr. with a 230-gr. bullet is WAY beyond anything we need in these sports.

[lpspinner]

Ok, it's been a month since I last tested these. And it's been that long since I've been shooting.

I sent my scale off to Dillon over 3 weeks ago and haven't heard anything yet. I'm waiting to get the scale back and weigh the actual loads again. I decided that I should have a good beam scale here just to double check. I think I have an old Lee, but have no idea where it's at.

I'm not worried about the cost of the components. I'm only going to lose about 150 Zero and 100 X-treme bullets. No biggie. I'm just curious as to what I was shooting.

The thing is here, you have someone that was loading and measuring just about everyone of the first 100 rounds off the press. Yes, I do not use a brass pin in the powder station. The scale shows the weight I wanted and the check weight checked fine. You go to the range and blast a couple hundred of these and then you come home. Later on, (a week later) you accidentally discovered there's a scale issue.

So, I'm not trying to outsmart or best the ballistic engineer at Hodgen or anywhere/anyone else. It's now more curiosity. (Yes, I know about the cat) I can be a very anal loader, always checking and measuring my loads. A 550 can do about 500 rounds an hour, well for me, it's half that cause I'm always weighing the charge that dropped.

I appreciate all the concern, comments and advice, especially Guy for this... "plus the ruination of your sex life." That's the most important reason.

[lpspinner]

Well, it looks like it'll be longer before I find out. It's going on 6 weeks.

The Post Office shows they delivered the scale to them a couple of days after I sent it, but I called Dillon on Saturday and they have no record of receiving my scale.