Kidney stones

[Jake Di Vita]

Dehydration has little to do with formation of kidney stones, that's just awkward timing. (The majority of people you see are at least slightly dehydrated).

Kidney stones usually form in an environment where there is an excess of uric acid.

What I would do is eat loads of green veggies, decrease my nut intake, supplement with a bunch of omega-3, and try and get the leanest meats I can.

All these things combined should greatly lower the acidity level of your blood.

[colt]

I am not a doc , but I doubt it dissolve. That's the way mine went , it hurt and not . Not sure but I thought when its was not hurting it is moving down . When it hurt its has stuff blocked up. Maybe it doesn't work that way either , just seemed that way with me.

After they blasted me I went in a bottle and strained for over a week and it never came out . I quit going in the bottle and it came out. Trust me you will know . It feels like it burning feeling and when its out I felt good .

I feel your pain . Hang in there and you will feel better soon I am sure . My doc new from the start that it probable wouldn't pass on its own. So your doc must think it will , and that good !!

Good luck Brent

[Nik Habicht]

Dehydration has little to do with formation of kidney stones, that's just awkward timing. (The majority of people you see are at least slightly dehydrated).

Dehydration may not be the cause, but hydration is an important part of recurrence prevention. Otherwise healthy individuals are typically encouraged to increase their daily water intake to 3 liters.

Kidney stones usually form in an environment where there is an excess of uric acid.

That covers about 5-10% of kidney stones. Renal calculi are also formed as the result of Calcium Oxalate and Calcium Phosphate (75-80% according to my notes, ~ 50 % according to some texts), Struvite (10-15%) or Cystine (pretty rare at 1-2%, almost always with a genetic component.) Straining urine can lead to stone composition identification --- which is necessary for specific pharmaceutical treatment and dietary modification.

What I would do is eat loads of green veggies, decrease my nut intake, supplement with a bunch of omega-3, and try and get the leanest meats I can.

All these things combined should greatly lower the acidity level of your blood.

The goal of treatment is to change the character of the urine and prevent further stone formation. In otherwise healthy individuals this is generally accomplished by increasing fluid intake to 3L/day, modifying the diet to reduce the intake of the primary substance forming the calculi, or changing the diet to promote a urinary pH that does not promote stone formation. Intake of colas, coffee and tea should be limited because high intake of these fluids is thought to increase the risk of recurrence.

Jake's advice should lead toward alkalinizing the urine which can help with reducing the recurrence of both uric acid and calcium stones -- though calcium stones might also require a reduction in the consumption of calcium rich foods. (Reducing dietary calcium used to be routinely implemented; some recent research suggests that a high calcium intake may may actually lower the risk by reducing the urinary excretion of oxalate, a common factor in many stones.)

As always, one should consult a licensed medical professional --- and not rely on postings on the internet. Untreated/improperly treated kidney stones can lead to serious complications.....

[Religious Shooter]

Yeah... reduce your nut intake.

[sfinney]

Kidney stones suck. And Dehydration is a factor in forming the crystals...

Drink alot of water - and the lemon juice / olive oil concoction works. I had stones that decreased in size from 4 or 5 mm to under 2mm in a few weeks, on the ultrasounds... was able to pass a couple that otherwise would have been hell. Doc couldn't figure it out the stones were getting smaller.....

[calishootr]

for a 'home' remedy, beleive it or not pouding down a 6 pack of soda(take your pick pepsi or coke) in a sitting will help reduce the size of the stone and get it to pass quicker, somthing about flushing the system with all that phosphoric(sp) acid helps in eating away atthe stone....helped a friend of mine who has them periodically....

[Sarge]

My first stone the Doc told me to go home and pound beer. I guess if the thing is out of your kidneys the next step is to flush it and quick.

[Paul B]

Having had Kidney stones on both sides 2 years ago I know how bad it feels. I had to have both broken up with the machine because they were too big to pass. NOT FUN!!!!!!!

My urologist told me the main cause of stones is, in fact, dehydration. Diet is a contributing factor and in a low percentage a main factor. I live in a colder climate so he indicated his practice is almost all in the summer when people don't drink enough fluids. He vacations in the winter. I asked him if he wanted to analyze the stones and he said it won't make any difference as long as you stay hydrated.

By the way, after mine were broken up, I was still passing pieces for a year - so much fun. Also I can't take the codeine pills they usually give you so it was grin and bear it or just bear it!!!

[Jake Di Vita]

Diet is a contributing factor and in a low percentage a main factor

If you don't create the environment in your body where kidney stones develop, you won't have to worry about them. It's the same logic as: if you never want to get in a car accident...don't get in a car.

I promise diet is more than just a contributing factor. Most people hate to hear this because it means they need to be disciplined about what they put in their mouth, but it's the truth. I've never seen nor heard of anyone having kidney stones who were on a low carb ketogenic diet and paid attention to their omega 3 - omega 6 ratio.

Sure that doesn't mean it never happens, but I'd much rather take my chances on that side of the fence.

[CAMO66]

saw the Doc on Monday and did a cystoscopy. that one hurt..inserted that in my manhood

to look for infection in bladder. All checked out fine except for a small cyst that he said that its normal

to have with my age. He did mention that there's a small stone of the kidney that the CT scan showed but not worried coz he said

that if he takes it out it may get worse so he said wait and it will pass eventually. Sooo much pain. I drank 2 oz of lemon and olive oil

plus the 2 ounce of apple cider vinegar. I hope I pass this stone in the morning.

If I drank olive oil and vinegar it would come out alrite but it would be coming out the other end . I had one acouple of years ago and I feel your pain. Vikadin pretty much helped me but still had a lot of pain. Finally shot it out after 4 days. My dad has had around 20 of them over 30 yrs. They've gotten them out every way you can imagine. Passed, rodded, crushed, and some have just disapaired. They did a big test on him over 6 months with special diets and finally decided that he's one of the 1 in 10 that just get them for no known reason.

Hope you get an A when you do shoot it out.

Scott

[Nik Habicht]

Diet is a contributing factor and in a low percentage a main factor

If you don't create the environment in your body where kidney stones develop, you won't have to worry about them. It's the same logic as: if you never want to get in a car accident...don't get in a car.

I promise diet is more than just a contributing factor. Most people hate to hear this because it means they need to be disciplined about what they put in their mouth, but it's the truth. I've never seen nor heard of anyone having kidney stones who were on a low carb ketogenic diet and paid attention to their omega 3 - omega 6 ratio.

Sure that doesn't mean it never happens, but I'd much rather take my chances on that side of the fence.

So the entire medical establishment is wrong? Proper hydration levels have nothing to do with it? It comes down strictly to diet? Really?

[srf]

I've had 'em a few times in my life (calcium). I just want to reiterate: Drink water and stay physically active!

The last couple of times I had them I was old enough to reconstruct the events (I was 10 the first time I had 'em). I used to drink a lot of milk - I drink far more water now. During my last occurance (10 years ago) I passed one after playing a round of golf, and another after framing an addition for my bother in-law. It sucks because you feel like s$%t and you hurt, but movement really helps pass 'em.

I've gone 15 years without a reoccurance - the good news is that with a little attention you don't have to go through this.

[Jake Di Vita]

The above poster's situation makes a lot of sense. Dairy causes an incredibly potent insulin response.

So the entire medical establishment is wrong? Proper hydration levels have nothing to do with it? It comes down strictly to diet? Really?

Well let's see...

The FDA is wrong about the food pyramid. This is quite easily conclusively proved (the research is out there if you are interested).

We live in a society that prefers to medicate symptoms than treat causes. Why? See below.

The prevention of disease is not good business for pharmaceutical companies or hospitals.

When we consider these things and remember that most medical research is paid for by pharmaceutical companies...well - it seems pretty obvious to me.

I never said dehydration isn't a factor, but it sure as hell isn't the baseline reason. For Christ sake, if you pee yellow you are dehydrated. That sure as hell doesn't mean you are going to get a kidney stone. Assuming that dehydration is a main cause of kidney stones just because some people who have kidney stones are dehydrated is not a really justifiable position. I bet if you were to take 50 people whom have had a history of kidney stones and had them log their nutrition for a month, you would see some stunning similarities.

To use another analogy, if you don't want to get sunburned....stay out of the sun. If you don't want kidney stones (or the vast majority of other disease) don't eat a diet that creates the environment for those problems to thrive.

Most kidney stones form from calcium oxalate correct? Where does calcium oxalate come from? Calcium oxalate comes from an excess of oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is manufactured by the oxidation of carbs and glucose.

Lets go with uric acid stones next (which form in the absence of dehydration). Increased dietary acid leads to increased endogenous acid production in the liver and muscles, which in turn stresses the kidneys. The acid load to the kidneys is handled less than optimally because of insulin resistance and renal fat infiltration. Both of those things impair ammonia excretion. The result of this is that your urine becomes quite acidic. Uric acid is insoluble in this environment which in turn forms crystals and stones. Uric acid crystals also promote the formation of calcium oxalate stones because they act as seed crystals.

So what do we see here? A diet high in carbohydrates and high in omega 6 fats (nuts, the fat from grain-fed beef) greatly increases the chance of kidney stone formation. Something that wouldn't happen with a low carbohydrate diet, a good omega 3 to omega 6 fat ratio, and lots of veggies.

[RufDog]

with "modern medicine" it can become difficult to clearly determine motives of the "establishment". Take for instance the salt/high blood pressure debate = not related. I give credit to Nick for acknowledging the recent research of more/less calcium. Gereat topic & discussion guys-

here are a few links that might give you some alternative insight

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...-This-Easy.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...ney-Stones.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...ng-nothing.aspx

[Jake Di Vita]

Split the discussion out of the hate topic.

[eric nielsen]

Smith's General Urology

Above link is good for 3 days. "Print Chapter" gives a view of the whole chapter. Actually printing all that would kill 1/2 a tree.

Several possible single or combination mineral formations can precipitate [solidify out of a liquid, i.e. blood, urine] to form stones, calculi, nephrolithiases, whatever you like to call them. Uric acid stones are the [small] minority of cases, but if you already have gout or have been diagnosed hyperuricemic, you already know what to do. As stated, uric acid levels are heavily influenced by diet.

Prevention of most stones can be as easy as 1. being a woman or 2. drinking plenty of water.

Hydration to prevent urinary stasis is standard accepted practice with regards to these conditions, which have several incomplete and unproven theories to explain their cause. Where theory is lacking, evidence-based medicine - in my humble opinion - is the next best thing. If you have stones, standard practice is to get x-rays [where the stones pop out like jewels on film] and urinalysis done. Non-standard practice can be found in too many places to name.

I realize that in the distant past, evidence-based medicine called for leeches and bleedings. We have better data now.

I agree that the food pyramid is not the way to go for a significant minority of the American public nor for many if not most athletes. It should not have been presented as the diet for every man, woman, and child. That is about as far as I can follow Jake's reasoning with regards to whose evidence or whose anecdotes are to be embraced or ignored. He has several possibly-helpful dietary ideas in mind. Happy reading.

Edited January 4, 2010 by eric nielsen

[Eager]

From what I understand most "stones" are calcium oxalate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalate

The problem is not so much the calcium, as the oxalate.

Oxalate, and it's other form oxalic acid, are what makes raw Taro root, rhubarb leaves, dephenbacia plants, and anitifreeze toxic. Oxalate can be ingested in a soluble form (e.g. sodium oxalate), and enter your blood stream as such, but then when it hits calcium (also in your blood), it will convert to the insoluble calcium oxalate form and can precipitate (form solid stones). What I've read as a solution is to 1) eat calcium with oxalate foods, so that it converts to the solid mineral form in your stomach, not later in your blood or inside your body, or 2) avoid high oxalate foods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taro

Taro corms are very high in starch, and are a good source of dietary fiber. Oxalic acid may be present in the corm and especially in the leaf, and these foods should be eaten with milk or other foods rich in calcium[9] in order to remove the oxalate in the digestive tract. Absorbing a large quantity of the oxalate ion into the blood stream poses health risks, especially for people with kidney disorders, gout, or rheumatoid arthritis. Calcium in the body reacts with the oxalate to form calcium oxalate, which is highly insoluble and is suspected to cause kidney stones.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48

I work in the chemical processing industry were we deal with trying to prevent the precipitation (solidification) of oxalate as the chemistries change through our process, so I find it interesting how this same simple phenominon occurs in the body, with dramatic impact.

The oxalate situation in the body reminds me of the bends, i.e. where at the greater pressure at depth, nitrogen is dissolved in the blood, but as the diver comes up, pressure decreases to the point where nitrogen gas comes out of solution forming gas bubbles in the blood stream. It's all about solubility.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Eager

[Putty]

Eeager +1.

Not sure if "most" stones are calcium oxylate.

I have had 100+ kidney stones and 2 surgeries. So far, calcium citrate tabs daily to bind the oxylate and an elimination of foods high in oxylates has worked. Increased hydration has never worked for me (dilution is the solution) where the issue is a metabolic (metamorph) precipitate.

[Bear23]

I think if i need medical advice i can just pull out my copy of Harrisons, or walk down 2 doors from my practice to my Primary care doc. this is the last place i would look.

[Taeaghe]

Pretty painful topic, it happened a couple of times ...