Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 So... if I use my weak hand to grab my hair to hold up my head.. that would be ok... right? (I know you bald guys are jealous) Yeah, but it would be better (and funnier) if you got Mark to do it for you. Hell, he'd probably lift you off the ground. ...at which point a pair of tighty-whiteys would come sliding out of John's pant leg, and the RO would have to call "Stop" because he'd be laughing too hard to be able to continue to run the shooter.... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 You guys need to realize that some of you are quoting the father, and some of you are quoting the son/shooter/opening poster. They were posting on the same account...using the same user name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 So... if I use my weak hand to grab my hair to hold up my head.. that would be ok... right? (I know you bald guys are jealous) Yeah, but it would be better (and funnier) if you got Mark to do it for you. Hell, he'd probably lift you off the ground. I'd be glad to assist. We'll calll it the new "Dangle-Foot" stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 You guys need to realize that some of you are quoting the father, and some of you are quoting the son/shooter/opening poster. They were posting on the same account...using the same user name. Then that would make it fair game to quote either/both as one in the same, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Iam the father of the orinal poster This position started many years ago. My son started shooting competivly at the age of ten. he is now 15 It started for support. beign that young holding the gun up with one and having any kind of stability was hard. Fast forward to today.He is changing his position but some times he goes to the posted position. The reason for the post was probably my lazyness. if it was legal why change it now. He is verry fast in getting into that position. many years and many dry fires. Here you go. He doesn't say support the arm, but he does mention stability, having trouble holding the gun up, etc. Nothing about holding up his head. Exactly. The father of the OP said "It started for support. beign that young holding the gun up with one and having any kind of stability was hard." He doesn't mention what the support or stability is for. The OP said "i think it gives me an advantage to rest and steady my head", defining what was stabilized. These are not contradictory statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 (edited) According to the OP, whom I see no reason to consider a liar, the position in question was used to steady his head. In one post it's the head. In another post it's his shooting arm. I'll call bs on the head. Where does the OP state that it is his shooting arm? EDIT: Already posted this last night. Sorry for the repeat. I'm sure many of you will agree that I shouldn't post late at night, if at all. Edited January 27, 2010 by mhs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Nothing new to add here. Die thread, die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 So... if I use my weak hand to grab my hair to hold up my head.. that would be ok... right? (I know you bald guys are jealous) Yeah, but it would be better (and funnier) if you got Mark to do it for you. Hell, he'd probably lift you off the ground. If I did that around Mark he would be hitting me with per shot penalties because I would have a significant advantage over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I know that people want this thread to die, but after reading the thread I have a couple of questions: 1) If the competitor is wearing suspenders, is he/she penalized if they pull down on the front suspender strap with their non-shooting hand? In this case, they are not touching their shoulder, and the position looks much like how a lot of people shoot with their non-shooting hand on their chest. They can potentially get the same effect as OP putting pressure on their shoulder and thereby improving stability for the shooting arm. 2) Similar to question #1 above, but it's a garment like a shooting vest, or under garment like a bra. Will pulling down on the garment collect penalties? If there is extra padding at the appropriate places in the shoulders for the garment, one can got the same effect of stabilizing the shoulder. 3) With the coming advances in nano-tech and advanced fibers, if the shooter wears a garment that lets parts become an exoskeleton, will activating this function collect penalties? Think of the Dark Knight Batman movie where the fibers lock in to become wings. Now imagine the same for a shooting jacket arm. In this case the competitor isn't even doing anything with their non-shooting hand to support the shooting arm. All they do is hit a switch that locks the arm. 4) Do #1, #2, or #3 not collect penalties, but instead collect a DQ for unsportsman like conduct? 5) Will kneeling and resting the shooting arm on the forward knee collect penalties? In this case the non-shooting hand is not involved, the rules say nothing about other body parts being used to support the shooting arm. I agree that learning how to shoot one handed while the other hand holds on to an object is a good skill to have, especially with movement. But for classifiers (for example Merle's Standards, Area Five Standards or Area 4 Standards) which have a lot of distance and no movement, anything that will improve the hold would be a benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrguar Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I do not see this as an issue. I do not see any benefit in using this particular position over holding your weak hand tight to your chest. I do not see this as a support issue rather a stability issue (despite the forum experts). This gentleman can be best served by some coaching and some practice at a more practical shooting stance, and maybe a little time on the weight bench Of course we can keep beating this around till spring Kinda makes me miss Vince Pinto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Sucky day today... I had to issue a shooter 3 procedural penalties under 10.2.8.2 because he placed his hand flat his upper chest with fingers touching his shoulder. What sucked was that this was on the classifier "Hoser Heaven", and the shooter was having a relatively good run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Sucky day today... I had to issue a shooter 3 procedural penalties under 10.2.8.2 because he placed his hand flat his upper chest with fingers touching his shoulder. What sucked was that this was on the classifier "Hoser Heaven", and the shooter was having a relatively good run. So, were his fingers "touching" his shoulder, or was he "supporting the handgun, wrist, or shooting arm while firing shots?" How did you make the determination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Fingers were on the "shooting arm". His fingers were on his shoulder applying pressure, and as this thread had determined the shoulder was part of the shooting arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Fingers were on the "shooting arm". His fingers were on his shoulder applying pressure, and as this thread had determined the shoulder was part of the shooting arm. I'd have to see a picture of that to go along with it. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Fingers were on the "shooting arm". His fingers were on his shoulder applying pressure, and as this thread had determined the shoulder was part of the shooting arm. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Sucky day today... I had to issue a shooter 3 procedural penalties under 10.2.8.2 because he placed his hand flat his upper chest with fingers touching his shoulder. What sucked was that this was on the classifier "Hoser Heaven", and the shooter was having a relatively good run. 99-14 Hoser Heaven requires 6 shots to be fired weak hand only. Why only 3 procedurals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Sucky day today... I had to issue a shooter 3 procedural penalties under 10.2.8.2 because he placed his hand flat his upper chest with fingers touching his shoulder. What sucked was that this was on the classifier "Hoser Heaven", and the shooter was having a relatively good run. 99-14 Hoser Heaven requires 6 shots to be fired weak hand only. Why only 3 procedurals? Shooter only fired 3 shots weak hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Sucky day today... I had to issue a shooter 3 procedural penalties under 10.2.8.2 because he placed his hand flat his upper chest with fingers touching his shoulder. What sucked was that this was on the classifier "Hoser Heaven", and the shooter was having a relatively good run. 99-14 Hoser Heaven requires 6 shots to be fired weak hand only. Why only 3 procedurals? Shooter only fired 3 shots weak hand. And that's a "relatively good run"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Fingers were on the "shooting arm". His fingers were on his shoulder applying pressure, and as this thread had determined the shoulder was part of the shooting arm. So first you say he's just had rthe fingers of his hand flat on his chest to extend and to touch his shoulder, and then upon reflection (challenge), caused by Niks inquiry, you now say he supported his off-hand arm. ?!?!!! Which the Hell is it? Do you even know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Sucky day today... I had to issue a shooter 3 procedural penalties under 10.2.8.2 because he placed his hand flat his upper chest with fingers touching his shoulder. What sucked was that this was on the classifier "Hoser Heaven", and the shooter was having a relatively good run. 99-14 Hoser Heaven requires 6 shots to be fired weak hand only. Why only 3 procedurals? Shooter only fired 3 shots weak hand. And that's a "relatively good run"? It's fixed time, so no penalty misses. He was shooting the stage clean, unlike the rest of our squad which was collecting a lot of No Shoots. A lot of other squads we encountered left the stage feeling pretty humbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 So you believe that a hand flat on the chest with the finger tips touching the shoulder meets the definition of "support"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) So you believe that a hand flat on the chest with the finger tips touching the shoulder meets the definition of "support"? Personally, I don't. I think it that the arm ends at the armpit, and the shooters position in post #1 of this thread is legal. But as argued earlier, 10.2.8 uses the phrase "i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand". Edited November 8, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 So you believe that a hand flat on the chest with the finger tips touching the shoulder meets the definition of "support"? Personally, I don't. I think it that the arm ends at the armpit, and the shooters position in post #1 of this thread is legal. But as argued earlier, 10.2.8 uses the phrase "i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand". 10.2.8 say's "support". How is a hand flat on the chest supporting the shooting arm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 So you believe that a hand flat on the chest with the finger tips touching the shoulder meets the definition of "support"? Personally, I don't. I think it that the arm ends at the armpit, and the shooters position in post #1 of this thread is legal. But as argued earlier, 10.2.8 uses the phrase "i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand". You're reading the wrong phrase. That phrase is part of the "may use the other hand/arm to disengage a safety, clear a malf, or reload..... 10.2.8.2 I'm assuming is what you cited as the reason for the procedurals. That prompted my question about support..... I wasn't there, I didn't witness the run..... If however the facts were as you presented -- shooter had his hand on his chest, fingertips touching his shoulder, then I don't think I would have assessed a procedural.... I don't think that meets the definition of support.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Fingers were on the "shooting arm". His fingers were on his shoulder applying pressure, and as this thread had determined the shoulder was part of the shooting arm. So first you say he's just had rthe fingers of his hand flat on his chest to extend and to touch his shoulder, and then upon reflection (challenge), caused by Niks inquiry, you now say he supported his off-hand arm. ?!?!!! Which the Hell is it? Do you even know? Still awaiting a reasonable/reasoned repsonse. You've been on both sides of it. Where are you now? I regret being this pointed, but this is no small matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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