Lining the sights up from the draw . . .

[Pro2AInPA]

I've been spending time both at home in dry fire and at the range live fire evaluating my skill set with the handgun. This has included draws, reloads, follow up shots, shooting on the move, moving from box A to B, etc.

Of all of these skills, getting a fast accurate first shot from the draw is my biggest weakness. It simply takes me too long to get the sights aligned after drawing the gun.

Can anyone offer some pointers on this? If it matters, my sights are a Dawson adjustable black rear with a fiber optic Dawson front on a Glock 17L.

[boz1911]

Sounds like a bad habit I developed. It's hard to describe but after gripping the gun correctly bring the gun up to your chest and begin pushing it out. As you push the the gun to the target you should be acquiring the sights and be ready to drop the hammer slightly before the end of the push.

Make sure you are moving the weak hand at the same time as your strong hand.

To practice, go slowly and over exaggerate the motions. Then start going faster and smoother.

Perhaps some searches would help you locate some video.

[Pro2AInPA]

Sounds like a bad habit I developed. It's hard to describe but after gripping the gun correctly bring the gun up to your chest and begin pushing it out. As you push the the gun to the target you should be acquiring the sights and be ready to drop the hammer slightly before the end of the push.

Make sure you are moving the weak hand at the same time as your strong hand.

To practice, go slowly and over exaggerate the motions. Then start going faster and smoother.

Perhaps some searches would help you locate some video.

I've seen TONS of video but all the guys in the videos are so fast that it's really tough to break it down into smaller steps. They're like magicians!

[Seth]

Brian gives GREAT advice on this one. Practice draws with your eyes closed. Open your eyes after the draw and see your alignment. Do that a few times and you'll start to feel your hand get a good grip.

Worked well for me. I've shaved .5 sec off my draw in the last 6 months.

[Bigpops]

We have a GM friend helping us and he has given us some incredible advice and instruction.

One of the first things he showed us was to close our eyes and draw the gun. When your all set open your eyes and check for alignment. If your not properly aligned adjust your feet NOT your arms. Once you establish a perfect sight picture and find your proper foot set...LEARN it!

Now, each time we go to the line (or practice) we perform a practice draw and check for alignment. After a short time it becomes second nature. I know exactly where my feet must be.

It works for us....give it a try. When I first started out I thought it was all in my grip and arm position. I was literally chasing my tail.

[Pro2AInPA]

We have a GM friend helping us and he has given us some incredible advice and instruction.

One of the first things he showed us was to close our eyes and draw the gun. When your all set open your eyes and check for alignment. If your not properly aligned adjust your feet NOT your arms. Once you establish a perfect sight picture and find your proper foot set...LEARN it!

Now, each time we go to the line (or practice) we perform a practice draw and check for alignment. After a short time it becomes second nature. I know exactly where my feet must be.

It works for us....give it a try. When I first started out I thought it was all in my grip and arm position. I was literally chasing my tail.

Thanks!

[boz1911]

I should add that even though a lot of guys, including myself can produce a .6 or .7 draw in practice rarely do it during a match. In reality during a match 1.2 - 1.3 is going to be the norm. I don't go for the lightning draw during a field course. Maybe for a classifier that has a 5-7 yard target, but that's the exception. A good solid consistent draw will yeild better results overall.

[Bigpops]

Your welcome!

One other thing, and this will be hard to explain but I will try to make it at clear as possible;

I was trying to hard to draw fast. I was almost "grabbing the gun". if you watched video you would actually see my holster and belt move. I was simply forcing my hand down onto the gun, feeling the webbing in my hand touch the gun, and pulling up.

Now I have learned to "snatch" the gun. As he calls "stealing it". The difference is going from a jerky draw to a nice smooth one. I have noticed that it makes for better sight alignment.

Ohhh, one other thing...stay as relaxed as possible before the draw. I even wiggle my toes to make sure!

[LPatterson]

Bigpops,

Be very careful with the snatch because if you don't get the thumb around in time Mr. Murphy WILL snatch it out of your hand. The snatch really only works with a hands at side draw, so with a surrender draw you are going down around and up. Saul Kirsh, Max Michael Jr and Angus Hobdell discuss it in the video 3GM but with .7 .8 & .9 draws none of them use it.

[Flyin40]

I've been spending time both at home in dry fire and at the range live fire evaluating my skill set with the handgun. This has included draws, reloads, follow up shots, shooting on the move, moving from box A to B, etc.

Of all of these skills, getting a fast accurate first shot from the draw is my biggest weakness. It simply takes me too long to get the sights aligned after drawing the gun.

Can anyone offer some pointers on this? If it matters, my sights are a Dawson adjustable black rear with a fiber optic Dawson front on a Glock 17L.

First, what is your draw time?? Not your fastest draw but an On demand draw. As mentioned above a 1.25 match draw is just fine. The guys who say they are doing a .75 draws in practice consistently or even faster can probably do a 1sec on demand draw or match draw.

Also what distance are you practicing at??

What do you think is a fast draw?? What do you think is a good draw time for a match??

Sounds like you don't have a great index. The fact that your searching says alot. Basically you want to practice your draws so everytime you draw the gun your sights/gun is on target. You don't have to look for the sights, they are just there and you know they are there. When you know the sights are going to be there everytime this gives you the confidence to pull the trigger as your finishing extending the gun out. There shouldn't be any searching for the sights. This comes with quite a bit of repetition and the drill suggested with closing your eyes works great. Also working on your index in dryfire is great but live fire is needed. I use a 22 conversion on a STI frame to work on this to save money.

Also don't be afraid to go the range to work on the index and just draw and fire. If you don't see the sights as you pull the trigger thats ok. Its a learning process and part of getting a good index is being able to draw, fire without seeing a perfect sight picture. You can index off the top of the slide and still make an accurate shot.

I suggest you do a forum search and read all the threads about index so that you have a good understanding of it and post some more questions if your having trouble with something.

[Flexmoney]

Go ultra slo-motion. Go in reverse.

And, hit the search page here and do a search. Tons of great info already here.

[Bigpops]

Bigpops,

Be very careful with the snatch because if you don't get the thumb around in time Mr. Murphy WILL snatch it out of your hand. The snatch really only works with a hands at side draw, so with a surrender draw you are going down around and up. Saul Kirsh, Max Michael Jr and Angus Hobdell discuss it in the video 3GM but with .7 .8 & .9 draws none of them use it.

Thanks Lpatterson!

I knew I would screw this up explaining it. I used the word snatch which was wrong....he calls it "stealing the gun". It allows for a good grip but it just made things allot smoother and faster.

I will stop explaining now before I even confuse myself!

[wide45]

Bigpops,

Be very careful with the snatch because if you don't get the thumb around in time Mr. Murphy WILL snatch it out of your hand. The snatch really only works with a hands at side draw, so with a surrender draw you are going down around and up. Saul Kirsh, Max Michael Jr and Angus Hobdell discuss it in the video 3GM but with .7 .8 & .9 draws none of them use it.

Thanks Lpatterson!

I knew I would screw this up explaining it. I used the word snatch which was wrong....he calls it "stealing the gun". It allows for a good grip but it just made things allot smoother and faster.

I will stop explaining now before I even confuse myself!

The Scoop is the danger draw you are thinking of.

I've been snatching the gun, and it works.

Edited December 30, 2009 by wide45

[jkatz44]

Go ultra slo-motion. Go in reverse.

And, hit the search page here and do a search. Tons of great info already here.

As Flex said. You should go in reverse. In Steve Anderson's book, he talked about it. Try slowing your self down. It will feel slower but will actually be faster. Remember, SLOW IS SMOOTH AND SMOOTH IS FAST!

[MemphisMechanic]

I knew I would screw this up explaining it. I used the word snatch which was wrong....he calls it "stealing the gun". It allows for a good grip but it just made things allot smoother and faster.

I will stop explaining now before I even confuse myself!

You accidentally advocated the scoop draw, but the advice you're TRYING to give is quite common in this forum.

Lots of guys come down really hard on the gun during the draw. The whole rig shudders. Using the same motion (I've always though of it as a 'pump') without hitting the gun nearly as hard will let you lift it from the holster a little faster... while still ensuring you have the dwell time with the weapon holstered to consistently get a good grip on it. Am I right?

Edited December 31, 2009 by MemphisMechanic

[Bigpops]

I knew I would screw this up explaining it. I used the word snatch which was wrong....he calls it "stealing the gun". It allows for a good grip but it just made things allot smoother and faster.

I will stop explaining now before I even confuse myself!

You accidentally advocated the scoop draw, but the advice you're TRYING to give is quite common in this forum.

Lots of guys come down really hard on the gun during the draw. The whole rig shudders. Using the same motion (I've always though of it as a 'pump') without hitting the gun nearly as hard will let you lift it from the holster a little faster... while still ensuring you have the dwell time with the weapon holstered to consistently get a good grip on it. Am I right?

Yeah...what you said!

[KennyW]

As far as the OP's original question, Saul Kirsch, in his Masters I video, has a really good segment on isolating and smoothing out the mechanics of presenting the pistol and acquiring the sight picture, separate from the draw.

He advocates working on presentation from the high-ready position first, then putting it together with the draw.

I've been relearning the whole process from scratch, to try and unlearn a couple of bad habits. Still working on it!

[kevin c]

+1 to BigPops's and Flying40's posts.

BE talks about the NPA - the Natural Point of Aim. My take on it is that the draw should be a very reproducible action, with the gun coming to exactly same point on each execution, and that there is a natural spot the gun will go to if you let it. Rather than adjust from this natural point to get the gun onto the target, BE sets up his start position so that the draw to the first shot is right on the NPA.

With enough good practice, you will be able to draw to the NPA (reproducible put the FS on the first target, even on the exact point of aim) with your eyes closed, over and over again. Another description of this ability is having a refined index.

The draw hopefully is a simple movement, directly from out of the holster to the target in pretty much a straight line. The FS shouldn't go much up/over, down/under or side to side on its way to the firing position. One thing I was taught was to get your index/NPA set up right, starting with the gun on target, then put the gun straight back into the holster. The reverse order on this reholstering sequence is actually a pretty decent drawstroke.

Bottom line, if you are looking at your point of aim and can draw directly to that spot, you won't have to hunt for the FS.

[TWHaz]

Go ultra slo-motion. Go in reverse.

And, hit the search page here and do a search. Tons of great info already here.

As Flex said. You should go in reverse. In Steve Anderson's book, he talked about it. Try slowing your self down. It will feel slower but will actually be faster. Remember, SLOW IS SMOOTH AND SMOOTH IS FAST!

On targets (paper and steel) farther than 3 yards give or take, I put this to the timer test a few months back and it is true.

Until you know what "natural point of aim" is and how to find/repeat it you will not have a consistant draw.

Then you can speed up the SMOOTH draw.

Once you get your NPA draw down then using your knees to rotate from the waste up, allows you to draw to where your eyes are looking i.e. "indexing"

Brians book (Practical Shooting beyound the fudamentals" explains it well and how to repeat it all through dry fire.

Edited January 16, 2010 by TWHaz

[Jesse Tischauser]

So where are your eyes picking up the sights on your draw? At full arm extension, 6" before full arm extension, as soon as your weakhand meets the gun???

[G-ManBart]

So where are your eyes picking up the sights on your draw? At full arm extension, 6" before full arm extension, as soon as your weakhand meets the gun???

For me, with an iron sighted gun, I'd say right around the time my support hand meets the gun, or a touch after, is when I start to see the sights. That's for a normal draw to a target that's roughly shoulder height. I'm probably not really seeing the front sight well until it's last couple of inches of forward movement.

I know that I'm seeing them before the gun is at full extension, because many times I've wanted to really smoke a first shot, and broke it before the front sight had dropped down even with the top of the rear sight. We're talking something like a 7yd target (or closer) and you knew it was either going to be a high A or just into the C. I've also done it where I slightly fumbled a draw, or it didn't feel smooth, and I almost subconsciously shaved a little bit off the first shot to make up for it knowing it would be fine.

All the posts about index and NPA are on the money. I'm certainly not the world's greatest, but I have worked on Brian's NPA drill enough over the years that I always feel like I can look at a target and index my shoulders on it with knee and waist movement such that even if my feet are set for a good exit, I'm still going to index properly on the first target.

For the OP, something to consider is video from the side. Even going slow, shoot some video of your draw....say a 2s first shot or a touch quicker...don't make it so you're rushing, but fast enough that you're not dragging it out either. Look for movement in your shoulder or body that isn't necessary. With a race holster there should be almost no movement besides your hand and arm....everything else stays put. With something like a DOH or a SS legal holster that holds the front strap at or above the top of the belt you may see your shoulder rise up to create room for your hand. Not being a tall guy I have to raise my shoulder, but try to keep everything else as quiet as possible.

I'm not suggesting this is a model draw you should emulate, but I shot some video of myself doing a couple of 1.0s draws out of a SS rig for something totally unrelated. I can go faster, but probably never do sub-1 in a match, and more common is probably 1.1-1.2. You can turn down the audio and then play/pause, play/pause, repeatedly to break it down into sorta slow-mo...if it helps visualize things.