David Sinko Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 I've been away from IDPA for a long time and no longer have a rule book. If I shoot a BUG match with my S&W Model 940 9mm moonclip revolver, must I load to Major PF? Or is everything in BUG division Minor PF? Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Only one class in BUG ...I think. Minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 There is no Power Factor requirement for BUG. They allow a minimum caliber of .32 ACP. Size and capacity (five rounds loaded only) is... according to the Rule Book... the only BUG requirement. Shoot whatever 9mm load you want. Chris Christian - IDPA SO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sinko Posted December 26, 2009 Author Share Posted December 26, 2009 OK. And can I shoot BUG division during a regular match, loading to 125 PF while using moonclips? This would be something to try during the winter matches at the indoor range, just to make things interesting. Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Bug is not an actual division of a normal match, Bug division is only used at special BUG matches or side match/stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boats Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Our clubs BUG matches all stages are 5 shot and don't have reloads on the clock. This to keep the wide variety of BUG's competitive. I shoot a 3 inch moon clipped 625 and it has no advantage over any other short barrel revolver. It's just under ESR PF with 200 GR FN Lead. Bug's don't have to make the factor so I use a lighter bullet with the same powder charge as 230's. We do make a distinction between Auto and Revolver. IF they will run, short barrel Autos have the advantage, which is why they are kept seperate. Seems only short Glocks and S&W M&P's will shoot the matches reliabliy without malfuntions. Might be some others out there but watching the other small autos most are jam o matics. Boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 I've had very good experiences with the Kimber Ultra Aegis II, their 3" barreled, aluminum framed, single stack 9mm. Totally reliable with every ammo type I've put through it, doesn't matter, hardball, hollowpoints, standard pressure, +P, +P+, an 8+1 capacity, and, with favored ammo, more accurate than we have any right to expect from such a compact auto pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sinko Posted December 27, 2009 Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 I remember years ago we had a guy who used a 2" J Frame .38 during the regular matches. All his reloads were on the clock, just like everybody else, but he was scored in his own BUG division. So this is not the way it's supposed to be? If I decide to shoot my 940 in a regular match, am I to compete in ESR at 165 PF? Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boats Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) David, Way our club works if I shoot the short 625 in a regular match, Not a BUG only match, I have to make PF. Recently I had to work the shorter barrel in at a major match when my 4 inch 625 started choking on Winchester primers. I used full PF 230 gr ammo. However as I understand the rule ammo has to make PF in a gun that is division barrel length. So if chronoed the ammo needed to make 165,00 in the 4 inch gun not the 3. On your 940 guessing again if moon clipped it would have to make 165,000. Question I would have is would handle 38 S&W rimmed cases ?. The short S&W and 9mm are dimensionally almost identical, guy in our club uses 9mm dies to load for his 38 S&W I frame revolver. Speed loaders grab the S&W case fine. Never having handled a 940 cannot say how they would chamber and extract. If you could use a rimmed case SSR & 125,000 PF would be a whole lot easier to reach. Boats Edited December 27, 2009 by Boats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sinko Posted December 27, 2009 Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 I have a hunch that the rims of the .38 family of cartridges will be too thin to work in the 940, but I will attempt to scrounge some brass and see what happens. So as I understand this, if I am held to PF on the chrono, I have the right to demand that somebody (match director?)produce a 4" 9mm revolver to see if my ammo makes PF in the 4" barrel? And what happens if nobody there happens to have a 4" 9mm revolver? Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 David, The Rule Book does state that chronographed ammo must make the required PF from the longest barrel allowed within that division. You would be within your rights to insist that your loads be chronoed from a fout inch gun. On the other hand, the Match Director has enough discretionary authority (under the Rule Book) that he can pretty much do what HE wants to do in that situation. He may allow you to compete without a "by the book" chrono, or he may DQ you. It's up to him, and his decision may well rest on how he feels you have approached him on the issue. Suger is better than vinegar when dealing with the MD. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 In a club shoot I would let you try your 940 with clipped 9mm P as a main match gun without requiring pf 165000 ammo. It would be a good test of the concept. Would I let you chrono 9mm overloaded to make major in MY gun? Not a chance. I don't know if .38 S&W will serve as "9mm Auto Rim." Its rim is only .055" vs 9mm P's .050" plus clip thickness. But it would not take much to try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 You cant use 38 rimmed cases in a 9mm revolver in IDPA, Lets get back to the rule book and not, "What My club does" Clubs should be following the rule book or not calling themselves IDPA. I see nothing in rule book that says MD can make up his own chrono rules. Back up gun is a side match or special match where all stages are 5 round max there is no distinction between auto and revolver, See App 1.7 page 26 of rule book. Now see app 1.5 page 24, your 940 only fits in ESR as such it must be loaded to 165000 pf, or at least be firing ammo that makes PF in a 4.2" barreled gun, You will not ever make pf in your gun or any other 9mm revolver and still be able to extract the round or cycle the cylinder, thats why 9mm revolvers dont make it on the market. granted club matches dont usually chrono but your gun most likely cant make pf. I really dont think you have the right to demand anything it is up to the competitor to read and follow the rule book. Your gun is not suitable for IDPA matches, other than for use on the occasional BUG side match/stages, now if MD wants to cheat or allow you to cheat or make up there own rules we cant do anything about that, but your question was posted under "IDPA rules section " so I assume you were interested in your situation as it applies to those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Current Rule Book... page 55... Section D: Match Director (MD)... (first para) " The MD is an IDPA certified SO who is in charge of every aspect of a match. The MD has the final say on ALL match issues and his decision is final. There is no arbitration." It seems to me that gives the MD the authority to do pretty much what he wants, at least at a non-sanctioned (club level) match. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 having final say doesnt mean you get to make up your own rules, page 58, item 8, Clubs MUST follow IDPA rules and principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 I have a Model 60 I converted to 9MM (940 barrel and cylinder) I would not think of trying to make major with it but using it in a bug match is fun although I prefer my 2.5" 66 much better. The moon clip 9MM revolver is great for carry though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 changing barrel and cylinder is not on the list of approved modifications your converted M 60 isnt legal. But I agree I dont think you could ever make major and also have a 9mm revolver work, even if you could make it the tapered cases would probably bind things up before you could get the cylinder to go all the way around, even then I wouldnt expect major PF brass to be too easy to eject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) So as I understand this, if I am held to PF on the chrono, I have the right to demand that somebody (match director?)produce a 4" 9mm revolver to see if my ammo makes PF in the 4" barrel? And what happens if nobody there happens to have a 4" 9mm revolver? Dave Sinko To answer your last question first "Nothing". You may wish to read the rulebook more carefully before issuing any demands. If the club is following the IDPA rulebook, your equipment - specifically the 5 shot revolver - is not compliant with either SSR or ESR Division equpiment rules. There are no provisions for 5 shot revolvers of any barrel length, caliber or weight in either SSR or ESR. To be in compliance with SSR and ESR division rules you must load to division capacity - 6 rd (Equipment sections 5.d. and 6.d. respectively). There are no provisions for handguns with less than division capacity in either revolver division as there are in SSP, ESP and CDP (Equipment sections 2.g., 3.e., and 4.e, respectively). As noted in earlier posts, 5 shot revolvers are complaint solely with BUG Division equipment rules. BUG matches are intended for club level matches only. I doubt you'll find a club level match or MD that will be willing to set up a chronograph simply to satisfy your hypothetical, non-compliant challenge. You can download a rulebook for free at www.idpa.com. Best Regards, Craig Edited December 28, 2009 by Bones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SauconValley Shooter Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Good Morning, Dave, are you going to shoot your 940 at Hellertown? If so, I can bring my 547, with a 4 inch barrel, and satisfy your demands, but as the MD I would recommend that you shoot in SSR for no score. We would record all of your times and targets but I would list you as DNF when scoring. This would allow you to see how you scored but you would not place. Before anyone gets all upset about the rules, I do my best to follow the rules at all times. I have been the PA state championship MD and I am MD at three clubs. Sometimes, however people would like to try something that does not "fit" within the rules. I have no problem allowing people to shoot something outside of the rules at a club match. I will ensure that they know why they are outside of the rules and I will recommend that they make whatever changes are required. I believe that March has five Tuesdays, so I will schedule a BUG match at Hellertown for that day and you can compete with your 940. Until then, you can shoot your 940 at matches for no score. Knowing Dave, he will probably be fairly competitive even with the five shot, unless I make a lot of six shot stages! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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