2011 Draft Production Rules

[Chuck Anderson]

If you've got ideas for something that needs to be changed in NRA AP Production lets here it. Present your case, what are the benefits, what are the potential pitfalls etc. Let's try to get this all in one thread so it will be easier to find this summer when we need to get it to Tom to put before the BOD. Let's try to do more than just complaining about certain rules, lets hear ways to fix them. If you've got wording you want changed, lets see the potential wording and see if we can bulletproof it before it gets changed next year. It would be nice to have a nice stable, and consistent set of rules for 2011.

[Griz]

My only major complaint is the SA trigger pull weight on revolvers. I have a stock 629 that won't make 3.5 lbs and I bought a NIB 686+ this year that was just under 3.5 lbs.

It's not a huge deal since a few seconds with a file can totally remove the SA notch and if they got cute and said it must have a SA mode, more careful file work could change the SA notch into a hook so that the SA trigger could lift test weight plus the referee. It's just really sloppy to require gunsmith work to comply with "production class" rules.

A minor annoyance is that while the rules appear to be tailored for Glock (3.5lb trigger, 5.35" barrel), Glocks are technically illegal since they do not have a double action mode. (If you claim they do, lets see you snap the firing pin twice without recocking the hammer by pulling the slide back).

[Griz]

Another suggestion would be to get rid of anyone on the rules committee who isn't a serious AP shooter. If you required them to shoot 3 state or regional level AP matches a year I bet the rules would make a lot more sense.

[Jason Perkins]

Another suggestion would be to get rid of anyone on the rules committee who isn't a serious AP shooter. If you required them to shoot 3 state or regional level AP matches a year I bet the rules would make a lot more sense.

I would think that would help a little, but then again if they are anything like they are here, they still wouldn't know what the rules mean???

[goneracin]

I really think allowing the SA notch to be removed on a revolver is almost necessary. If you are trying to create somewhat of a level field for all guns, there is almost no way anyone will be competitive with a 10lb trigger on a revo, so that would eliminate them from the class IMO. I think it would eliminate confusion if it specifically stated it was ok to remove it, not have it being proclaimed cool by a judge to one competitor during a conversation.

OR

Lower the trigger to be 2 lbs like all the other classes, so it eliminates confusion, and hassle. Screw the "in any mode" crap.

it is over 2 lbs, or it goes home. I cant see there being any benefit to making it be 3.5 lbs, unless someone lobbied the rules makers for some specific gun

The holster seems pretty straight forward. no open front race style holster.

the barrel rule seems pretty straight forward. no aftermarket barrels. If you wear out the stock barrel, you can put a new factory barrel in/on.

Can you grab the barricade with your support hand yes or no? SPELL IT OUT. dont make people guess, or change it on the fly. yes or no.

[Jason Perkins]

one change they should make 6" barrel max-- semi auto or revolver, ---why should a revolver shooter be able to have a longer barrel?? Not that they make very many semi autos over 5.35 but they do make some.

If they would change the rules to 2lbs-SA and 3-1/2lbs DA min.--- then anyone would be able to use there factory trigger without trying or having a gunsmith increase or decrease one.

No conversion of revolvers or semi autos to DA only, because the idea is production gu. a handgun that a person could compete with off the shelf, Stock parts only, What ever came with the gun, or factory replacement parts.

They should also put into the rules that anyone that wants there gun worked on and tricked out to shoot better they have two other classes that would welcome them called Matalic and Open.

[ADR]

It appears that the Production division rules were written exclusively for the "Glockenspeilers" and other striker fired Tupperware pistols. For production ditch the 3.5 pound trigger pull rule--- there are stock S&W revolvers that won't pass that test after 500 dry fires. Same thing with some stock DA/SA autopistols --SIG's in particular. Advice to the board--Action Pistol competitors use handguns other than a Glock-34!

[DWFAN]

I would just like the 3.5lb SA trigger to be lowered to 2.5lb. Then could most stock revolvers be ran? Ive never tested my 625, so I dont know what the SA would break at. (its light)

Maybe a little more clarity on the modifications allowed. Make it so someone with a USPSA/IPSC/IDPA production or (Im not sure what the IDPA division is) stock gun can shoot NRAAP with it. It will get more guys/gals crossing over and trying new stuff if they dont have to worry about breaking rules with their current equipment. Muchless the new to shooting sports shooters.

[wanderer]

ok, thoughts about ap production rules. as someone who shoots an ipsc production cz75 that has a 3.1lb sa trigger, i'm all for doing something with the trigger pull limit. maybe something like 3.5 da/ 2 sa.

i am however wondering, if the revolver trigger is lowered to 2 lb, whats the diff between production and metalic div. you can alter internals in both, trigger same in both, you shoot both da anyway. oh, you cant bob the hammer, wow that will make or break it. something need to thought out here. as it stands Jerry M could shoot his revo in production.

someone mentioned somewhere they were thinking of seperate revo and semi divs, may be 4 divs would work, open, sa semi(met), revo and da semi(prod).

i have competed in metalic div for 2 years now with my cz75, (shot cocked and locked) and since the object of production is attract new people, not convert existing ones. i fail to see the point when your extisting gun wont cut it. i for one can not afford to buy a new gun just for ap.

also for the rules, i think production should be production guns, no internal mods and only factory options, ie ipsc/uspsa rules.

[Chuck Anderson]

As an example of what I was thinking:

Original Rule: g) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. in any mode.

Potential Rule: g) Trigger weight may not be less than 2 lbs in any mode. For guns with only one firing mode (i.e. Striker fired or DAO) the trigger pull may not be less than 3.5 lbs.

Here's my reasoning. There are three potential types of guns I see competing in Production Division: DA/SA guns, DAO/Striker Fired guns and Revolvers. The division requires the first shot to be fired DA so for the DA/SA guns and Revolvers they still have to deal with the first shot of each string being heavier. I'm not aware of any gunsmith that can make a revo with a 3.5 lb DA pull and a 2 lb SA. I actually think it's impossible for a DA/SA semi to do so and work. So the DA/SA will have a first shot of at least 4+ lbs. Every factory gun on the market should be able to meet both standards without internal monkeying. The weights are easily discerned and measurable. This change would allow more guns to compete on an equal footing.

[Alan550]

ok, thoughts about ap production rules. as someone who shoots an ipsc production cz75 that has a 3.1lb sa trigger, i'm all for doing something with the trigger pull limit. maybe something like 3.5 da/ 2 sa.

i am however wondering, if the revolver trigger is lowered to 2 lb, whats the diff between production and metalic div. you can alter internals in both, trigger same in both, you shoot both da anyway. oh, you cant bob the hammer, wow that will make or break it. something need to thought out here. as it stands Jerry M could shoot his revo in production.

someone mentioned somewhere they were thinking of seperate revo and semi divs, may be 4 divs would work, open, sa semi(met), revo and da semi(prod).

i have competed in metalic div for 2 years now with my cz75, (shot cocked and locked) and since the object of production is attract new people, not convert existing ones. i fail to see the point when your extisting gun wont cut it. i for one can not afford to buy a new gun just for ap.

also for the rules, i think production should be production guns, no internal mods and only factory options, ie ipsc/uspsa rules.

There are other major differences between Metallic Sight and Production.

Metallic Sight = 8 3/8" barrel revolvers, Long-slide semi-autos, Bo-Mar & Aristocrat rib sights, adjustable front sights (Warren Moore makes one with a mover-lead built in), single-action semi-autos are allowed, and the list goes on and on for things you can't do in Production. Basically, a Metallic Sight gun is pretty much the same as Open without the optics, comps and wings for the barricade.

As for your suggestion of "no internal mods" on Production guns, that would mean that every one would have to be disassembled by the referees and checked with a magnifying glass!! Even then, it would be impossible to tell the difference between "factory" machine marks and "custom shop" work done by a reputable gunsmith to smooth up triggers, etc. They have to draw a line somewhere, and admittedly the line as it stands is a bit fuzzy, especially for non-AP shooters trying to understand the rules. It's a work-in-progress.

I've been at this game for ~15 years, and I'll admit that the rules are very vague in many instances, and non-existent in others. Trying to get every possible contingent covered will end up with thousands of pages, so we (shooters) have to take it one step at a time as Tom Hughes said in another post. We're still in our infancy as far as Production is concerned, so these posts will be a major help if we can get a bit on consensus of ideas to propose to the next AP Rules Committee meeting in the Fall.

Alan~^~

[jar]

I'm an outsider looking in here, not having ever shot AP. I just looked at the production rules and one thing jumped out "The rear sight may be

adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight." So, you cut out all the people who run adjustables on M&Ps and Glocks. Why do the rules have to be different than USPSA Production? I shoot IDPA and USPSA production and I can easily shoot both with the same gun as the rules are very close. What's the gain of being different? I'm not going to buy a new gun to shoot one match. The whole point of having a production division is to avoid that.

[wanderer]

There are other major differences between Metallic Sight and Production.

Metallic Sight = 8 3/8" barrel revolvers, Long-slide semi-autos, Bo-Mar & Aristocrat rib sights, adjustable front sights (Warren Moore makes one with a mover-lead built in), single-action semi-autos are allowed, and the list goes on and on for things you can't do in Production. Basically, a Metallic Sight gun is pretty much the same as Open without the optics, comps and wings for the barricade.

As for your suggestion of "no internal mods" on Production guns, that would mean that every one would have to be disassembled by the referees and checked with a magnifying glass!! Even then, it would be impossible to tell the difference between "factory" machine marks and "custom shop" work done by a reputable gunsmith to smooth up triggers, etc. They have to draw a line somewhere, and admittedly the line as it stands is a bit fuzzy, especially for non-AP shooters trying to understand the rules. It's a work-in-progress.

Alan~^~

alan

my thinking between differances (or rather similarities) between met and prod where for revo, if internal mods are allowed then the only differance is trigger weight and barrel lenght and sights? i realise semi is single action, and that in it self is a major differance.

as to your suggestion of every gun would have to be pulled apart to check internal mods, well, ipsc manage it without checking every gun. 98% of people will play by the rules, 1% will game it and stretch the rules and the 1% that will cheat will get caught.

anyway, i was thinking about this last night and i think that as AP is primarly aimed at the US it would make sence to traget the US shooters. ie, uspsa and idpa. so similar mods to those would allow all those guns to compete. this would also allow non US ipsc guns to compete since there rules are stricter. you would of course have to incorperate the trigger weights into this to allow the majority to pass the test and i think the 3.5 da/ 2 sa would do this.

chuck, your example was exactly what i had in mind. sorry bout not formating my idea correctly.

just my 2 cent worth, for what thats worth.

[motorcycle_dan]

Suggestions

Allow adjustable rear sight using factory dovetail. (ribs not allowed)

Specify trigger weight for each type pistol. Striker fired, DAO, DA/SA, and Revolver. On Revolver require a Heavy DA trigger only (>8lb), no SA measurement on revolvers. (Would a Para LDA be legal for production?)

Specify what a race holster is and forbid it. (no retention via trigger guard)

Allow grip change but must be mirror image except for cut out for speed loader.

Allow Grip friction tape (or disallow but specify)

Specify what type of holster is legal and the retention requirements

Specify the belt and holster position requirements (USPSA rules seem very specific and helpful) Make sure it is fair male and female as there are some differences (Duhhhh) Seriously get some Female help in this area if we want to encourage female shooters in production.

[Chuck Anderson]

Additional thoughts on trigger pull. A couple of folks have mentioned a reduction in the pull weight across the board. The downside I see with this is you still end up with a striker fired division. If you have a choice between first shot 6 pounds and each one after 2 or 2.5 or a gun where every shot is 2 or 2.5 you still end up biased towards the gun with all light pulls.

[gm iprod]

Suggestions

Allow adjustable rear sight using factory dovetail. (ribs not allowed) IN

Specify trigger weight for each type pistol. Striker fired, DAO, DA/SA, and Revolver. On Revolver require a Heavy DA trigger only (>8lb), no SA measurement on revolvers. As far as I recall in some other discussions that was looked at, and the blanket 3.5lb Rule was chosen most likely as other NRA pistol disciplines already have that rule, I expect they will adjust as required.

Would a Para LDA be legal for production? As I understand the rules YES, as long as it has the 3.5lb trigger, which the one I measured at my shop certainly has

Allow Grip friction tape (or disallow but specify) IN

Specify what a race holster is and forbid it. (no retention via trigger guard) That will need defining for sure, but as it stands I think it will work if everybody is sensible about what they want to use and check with Tom for clarification, pictures will be good

Specify what type of holster is legal and the retention requirements. See above

Specify the belt and holster position requirements (USPSA rules seem very specific and helpful) Make sure it is fair male and female as there are some differences (Duhhhh) Seriously get some Female help in this area if we want to encourage female shooters in production. Not sure, but I think that will work, again also may take refinement over a couple of matches.

Allow grip change but must be mirror image except for cut out for speed loader. That makes sense, may take some refining to suit as many guns as possible without turning it into an equipment race, maybe factory / manufacture issued grips only???

[alfsauve]

As far as I recall in some other discussions that was looked at, and the blanket 3.5lb Rule was chosen most likely as other NRA pistol disciplines already have that rule, I expect they will adjust as required.

NRA Conventional Pistol.

3.1.3 Standard Smallbore Pistol .22 caliber rim fire - ....at least 2 pounds

3.1.4 Distinguished Revolver - .....and maintain a 2 1/2 lb. minimum trigger pull

3.2 Any Center Fire Pistol or Revolver - trigger pull not less than 2 1/2 pounds

3.3 Any .45 Caliber Semi-automatic Pistol or Revolver - trigger pull not less than 3 1/2 pounds

[Action Pistolero]

The only shooter on the committee that shoots an A/P match besides Bianchi is also a PPC shooter. I checked the PPC rules and found that the only guns required to have the 3.5lb trigger are the Semi Autos. The revolvers are 2.5lbs in SA.

Looking at the other rules for the guns it looks like we got lucky. It could have been a lot worse.

[gm iprod]

My bad,

I was working on second hand info.

All we really needed to do was go with USPSA and then more guns would be in and lesshassles.

WE will see what develops as time goes by. Maybe the spomsors will have some input.

[alfsauve]

Of course here's the extreme end of simple in regards to trigger rules.

[and I understand they're not drawing from holster and they're firing from deliberate, fixed positions...been there---done that.],

from IHMSA: "Triggers set so light as to be prone to accidental discharge are not

allowed. Triggers shall be tested by cocking an unloaded handgun and rapping

the butt sharply with the palm of the hand."

Not advocating this for tactical, just showing an extreme end of the range of rules.

[Joe4d]

Of course here's the extreme end of simple in regards to trigger rules.

[and I understand they're not drawing from holster and they're firing from deliberate, fixed positions...been there---done that.],

from IHMSA: "Triggers set so light as to be prone to accidental discharge are not

allowed. Triggers shall be tested by cocking an unloaded handgun and rapping

the butt sharply with the palm of the hand."

Not advocating this for tactical, just showing an extreme end of the range of rules.

The problem with that is, "sharply" isnt anywhere in a list of approved weights and measures, you either need a pull weight based on an actual weight or do away with it all together, It's just not that much of a big deal, are there a plethora of matches being dominated by people with 1 lb triggers ? I just dont see what difference it makes. If you can afford to go to a couple matches you can afford a basic trigger job if you feel it is a must have item.

Same thing with holster and holster position, there just really isnt that much difference in speed from one holster to another, Just look at limited division of USPSA where any holster can be used, A normal Kydex or a Kydex dropped offset holster is the most popular choice as more and more people pass on the race rigs because of cost and the fact they really dont do much for your score,

A basic holster rule is all that is needed, , "If your gun falls out, you go home"