Finger position / Re-holster

[CZinSC]

So after a recent shoot, I have a few questions about rules/safety.

After the first stage, the RO warned me about my finger in the trigger guard when moving. I didn't question whether I did what he said, I'm sure I did, and I will heed his warning in the future. However, after thinking about it more and reading the rules, I have some things that I hope someone can clarify for me.

According to rule 8.5.1, “except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.”

#1 – Movement is further defined in 8.5.1.1 as “Taking more than one step in any direction”, and in 8.5.1.2 “Changing shooting stance ( ie: from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing, etc)”. If I’m standing in one spot shooting at a target to my left, then sweep from left to right and shoot at a target to my right, while not moving my feet, do I have to have my finger outside the trigger guard ( this is what the RO had warned me on)? In my example I’m not taking a step, nor am I changing shooting position. I’m technically engaging another target. One could say “yeah, but its all the way over there, you obviously take your finger out”. Well then what is the minimum distance from one target to the next? Cleary if one target is 2 feet to the right of another target you aren’t going to remove your finger from the trigger guard between shots. But at what distance between targets would you??

My second question popped up after I was trying to figure out the answer to question #1……

#2 – still from 8.5.1 “except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged” --- I had no idea this was in the rules. Are they saying that anytime that I’m not shooting at a target my safety has to be on? I’ve never heard of this nor seen it done. Do the pros do this? I’ve watched hundreds of videos of the top guys online, and either they are shooting a gun with no safety, they aren’t doing this, or it’s so hard to catch you just can’t see it. Has anyone that shoots a gun with a manual safety ever come across an RO that called him/her out on engaging the safety? I've shot a few classifiers where you start in one shoot box, then move to another. Is this rule saying I must put the safety on when I move from one to the other???

And finally:

#3 – According to 8.1.4 – “a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition state in section 8.1.” According to this rule, or any other…if I slide lock and run out of ammo, am I allowed to release the magazine, release the slide, and then holster the gun ( keep in mind it is unloaded) , then go back and pick up a full magazine that had fallen off my belt( yes, it has happened to me before), draw the gun, reload and then continue the course of fire? Some of you might say “just give up the stage and stop”. Well that is what I have done in the past, I’m just curious what the rules would have allowed. Some may also say “why not just keep the gun pointed down range and look for the full mag” – that is true too, but sometimes when you don’t know where that full magazine ended up, it would be nice to holster and look around without worrying about sweeping the RO or breaking 180. And finally, yes, I’ve already tightened the mag pouches to try and avoid this mishap in the future. But what do the rules say I can do??

Thanks for the help.

[Merlin Orr]

I am very interested in hearing how many (actually) engage the safety while moving between targets....

[BSeevers]

Should be and Must be are two WAY different phrases

[glefos]

Should be and Must be are two WAY different phrases

Excellent point. Why would the word "should" be in a rule book? I thought the point of a rule book was to be black and white.

[mactiger]

So after a recent shoot, I have a few questions about rules/safety.

After the first stage, the RO warned me about my finger in the trigger guard when moving. I didn't question whether I did what he said, I'm sure I did, and I will heed his warning in the future. However, after thinking about it more and reading the rules, I have some things that I hope someone can clarify for me.

According to rule 8.5.1, “except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.”

#1 – Movement is further defined in 8.5.1.1 as “Taking more than one step in any direction”, and in 8.5.1.2 “Changing shooting stance ( ie: from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing, etc)”. If I’m standing in one spot shooting at a target to my left, then sweep from left to right and shoot at a target to my right, while not moving my feet, do I have to have my finger outside the trigger guard ( this is what the RO had warned me on)? In my example I’m not taking a step, nor am I changing shooting position. I’m technically engaging another target. One could say “yeah, but its all the way over there, you obviously take your finger out”. Well then what is the minimum distance from one target to the next? Cleary if one target is 2 feet to the right of another target you aren’t going to remove your finger from the trigger guard between shots. But at what distance between targets would you??

My second question popped up after I was trying to figure out the answer to question #1……

#2 – still from 8.5.1 “except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged” --- I had no idea this was in the rules. Are they saying that anytime that I’m not shooting at a target my safety has to be on? I’ve never heard of this nor seen it done. Do the pros do this? I’ve watched hundreds of videos of the top guys online, and either they are shooting a gun with no safety, they aren’t doing this, or it’s so hard to catch you just can’t see it. Has anyone that shoots a gun with a manual safety ever come across an RO that called him/her out on engaging the safety? I've shot a few classifiers where you start in one shoot box, then move to another. Is this rule saying I must put the safety on when I move from one to the other???

And finally:

#3 – According to 8.1.4 – “a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition state in section 8.1.” According to this rule, or any other…if I slide lock and run out of ammo, am I allowed to release the magazine, release the slide, and then holster the gun ( keep in mind it is unloaded) , then go back and pick up a full magazine that had fallen off my belt( yes, it has happened to me before), draw the gun, reload and then continue the course of fire? Some of you might say “just give up the stage and stop”. Well that is what I have done in the past, I’m just curious what the rules would have allowed. Some may also say “why not just keep the gun pointed down range and look for the full mag” – that is true too, but sometimes when you don’t know where that full magazine ended up, it would be nice to holster and look around without worrying about sweeping the RO or breaking 180. And finally, yes, I’ve already tightened the mag pouches to try and avoid this mishap in the future. But what do the rules say I can do??

Thanks for the help.

#1: This is not considered "moving"--you are engaging targets in an array, and you do not have to take your finger out of the trigger guard.

#2: You do not have to engage the safety. "Should" means it's a recommendation, but it's not a requirement. There are instances where the safety must be applied, but as mentioned, there is a vast difference between "must" and "should". Some people do put the safety on while moving, but most don't, in my experience. Keeping your finger out of the trigger guard while moving is the common safe practice.

#3: Holstering your gun in this condition is allowed, since it meets the rulebook criteria for an unloaded gun. (No round in the chamber, no loaded magazine in the mag well.) You'd probably make the RO pretty nervous during all this, and the magazine search, but it would be legal.

Hope this helps.

Troy

[Joe4d]

A much simpler and more expected solution to #3 is to keep finger outside of trigger muzzel down range and beat feet back to the dropped mag squat grab and reload, you dont need two hands to grab a mag off the ground, so there realy is no need to holster, but if you wanted too the way you described would be ok,

[wide45]

Don't give up. If you have lost your ammo with a bunch of targets left to engage, you are going to score poorly on that stage, but there in no reason not to get as high a hit factor out of it as you can.

Keep your cool, at this point a few seconds won't make, or break you. At the very least, a DQ wipes out your whole match.

I'd opt to keep the gun in my hand. I'm used to moving about a stage with it. Does not matter what direction you are facing, keep the gun pointed at the back berm, and you are fine.

If you opt to reholster, and it has a lock, use it. You know what happens if you drop the gun during a course of fire. The fact that its empty won't matter. Don't let your hands get swept by the muzzle. Remember that during a course of fire, the gun while in the holster may not point uprange more than 3' from your feet. Next time you dry fire at home, when you bend over to pick up your mags, see where the muzzle points.

Edited December 21, 2009 by wide45

[steel1212]

A much simpler and more expected solution to #3 is to keep finger outside of trigger muzzel down range and beat feet back to the dropped mag squat grab and reload, you dont need two hands to grab a mag off the ground, so there realy is no need to holster, but if you wanted too the way you described would be ok,

Another reason I think ROs and Score Keepers should be reading this. LEAVE THE MAGS ON THE GROUND UNTIL THE SHOOTER IS DONE! I've seen so many score keepers walking down with the ROs, hell other competitors as well, and they are picking up the magazines on the ground. Leave them there because the shooter might need to come back and get them! Sorry, rant done

[mhs]

Remember that during a course of fire, the gun while in the holster may not point uprange more than 3' from your feet. Next time you dry fire at home, when you bend over to pick up your mags, see where the muzzle points.

Which rule is this?

[JThompson]

Remember that during a course of fire, the gun while in the holster may not point uprange more than 3' from your feet. Next time you dry fire at home, when you bend over to pick up your mags, see where the muzzle points.

Which rule is this?

None that I know of....?

JT

Edited December 21, 2009 by JThompson

[wide45]

10.5.2 does not allow muzzle to point uprange, only exception is 10.5.6 allows 3 feet while drawing/holstering.

10.5.2 actually allows no leeway for breaking 180 while holstered during the course of fire, however 10.5.6, and 5.2.3.7 would seem to make the 3 feet allowed.

[JThompson]

10.5.2 does not allow muzzle to point uprange, only exception is 10.5.6 allows 3 feet while drawing/holstering.

10.5.2 actually allows no leeway for breaking 180 while holstered during the course of fire, however 10.5.6, and 5.2.3.7 would seem to make the 3 feet allowed.

I agree, but I think it's ambiguous when the gun is in the holster and not being drawn or holstered and the holstered gun complies with the 3ft rule. Let's see if some rules guy can figure out why............

Note: I agree that a gun should never point up range at all, ever. Holsters with a rearward can't make me uneasy, esp when ROing.... I make sure my lower body is out of the way in case one of those striker fired guys doesn't get his bugger hook out of that trigger guard.

JT

Edited December 21, 2009 by JThompson

[mhs]

10.5.2 does not allow muzzle to point uprange, only exception is 10.5.6 allows 3 feet while drawing/holstering.

10.5.2 actually allows no leeway for breaking 180 while holstered during the course of fire, however 10.5.6, and 5.2.3.7 would seem to make the 3 feet allowed.

If your read of the rules is correct, it would be a DQ to to face uprange with a forward-canted holster. 10.5.6 only applies during the drawing/reholstering, and when facing downrange.

The easy way to make all the rules work together is to consider the gun safe while it is holstered, and only consider the 180 when it is being handled.

[Flexmoney]

A much simpler and more expected solution to #3 is to keep finger outside of trigger muzzel down range and beat feet back to the dropped mag squat grab and reload, you dont need two hands to grab a mag off the ground, so there realy is no need to holster, but if you wanted too the way you described would be ok,

Another reason I think ROs and Score Keepers should be reading this. LEAVE THE MAGS ON THE GROUND UNTIL THE SHOOTER IS DONE! I've seen so many score keepers walking down with the ROs, hell other competitors as well, and they are picking up the magazines on the ground. Leave them there because the shooter might need to come back and get them! Sorry, rant done

Can I get an AhhhhhMen !!

No other shooter should even be on the course of fire. So, they shouldn't have opportunity to pick up any mags.

And, BOTH the RO on the timer AND the RO on the clipboard should be doing the job...which means staying with the shooter and watching the shooters actions. They can't be doing that if they are doing something else.

[Flexmoney]

I was going to mention that they shooter that keeps the gun in hand while going back for a mag may have a better chance of keeping the muzzle pointed downrange.

The gun is still hot. (regardless of what we call unloaded/cleared)

If the hot gun is holstered, where is the muzzle when the shooter bends over to pick up the magazine?

BTW...carry more ammo!!

[JThompson]

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

Here's the reason I started this little side trip. I feel that the two rules have some ambiguity in that the second rule is not consistent with the state of the firearm. I feel that the word "loaded" needs to be removed from 10.5.6 to maintain consistency with 10.5.2.

Why would you have, "loaded or unloaded" in the first and only "loaded" in the second? The way the rule is written it would seem to imply that if a gun was unloaded, the 3 foot rule does not apply, or that it only applies to a "loaded firearm. Technically, this would mean that you could only take the 3 foot exemption if your handgun was loaded at the time. If the gun was unloaded then you would be DQed per 10.5.6 I know very well this was not the intent of the rule, but it is the letter.

That makes no sense to me and is why I wanted to get people thinking about it......

JT

Edited December 21, 2009 by JThompson

[mhs]

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

Here's the reason I started this little side trip. I feel that the two rules have some ambiguity in that the second rule is not consistent with the state of the firearm. I feel that the word "loaded" needs to be removed from 10.5.6 to maintain consistency with 10.5.2.

Why would you have, "loaded or unloaded" in the first and only "loaded" in the second? The way the rule is written it would seem to imply that if a gun was unloaded, the 3 foot rule does not apply, or that it only applies to a "loaded firearm. Technically, this would mean that you could only take the 3 foot exemption if your handgun was loaded at the time. If the gun was unloaded then you would be DQed per 10.5.6 I know very well this was not the intent of the rule, but it is the letter.

That makes no sense to me and is why I wanted to get people thinking about it......

JT

I think 10.5.6 was written to allow people with rearward-canted holsters to draw and reholster while facing downrange without being DQed for breaking the 180. What you bring up is a very good point; the "loaded" specification means that a shooter with a rearward-canted holster who is facing downrange commits a DQ offense when reholstering an empty gun.

[JThompson]

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

Here's the reason I started this little side trip. I feel that the two rules have some ambiguity in that the second rule is not consistent with the state of the firearm. I feel that the word "loaded" needs to be removed from 10.5.6 to maintain consistency with 10.5.2.

Why would you have, "loaded or unloaded" in the first and only "loaded" in the second? The way the rule is written it would seem to imply that if a gun was unloaded, the 3 foot rule does not apply, or that it only applies to a "loaded firearm. Technically, this would mean that you could only take the 3 foot exemption if your handgun was loaded at the time. If the gun was unloaded then you would be DQed per 10.5.6 I know very well this was not the intent of the rule, but it is the letter.

That makes no sense to me and is why I wanted to get people thinking about it......

JT

I think 10.5.6 was written to allow people with rearward-canted holsters to draw and reholster while facing downrange without being DQed for breaking the 180. What you bring up is a very good point; the "loaded" specification means that a shooter with a rearward-canted holster who is facing downrange commits a DQ offense when reholstering an empty gun.

[IC_Cyclone]

Self deleted...moved to new topic due to major thread drift...

Edited December 22, 2009 by IC_Cyclone

[JThompson]

Hmm, I would have thought there would have been a rebut to my interpretation.

JT

[joecichlid]

BTW...carry more ammo!!

Can I get an AMAN brother?? I ALWAYS have way more ammo on my belt than I need for a stage just in case. I mean what sucks more, getting to the end of a stage with 40 rounds more than needed still on my belt or yelling oh crap and back peddling 30 feet to pick up that mag you dropped eight targets ago that you NEED to finish the 32 round stage? This weekend I shot a classifier that only needed 12 rounds yet I had 30 in the gun with 44 more rounds (two 140mm mags downloaded) on my belt just in case there was a major brain fart moment.

Joe W.

[Gary Stevens]

8.2.5 allows the shooter to reholster a loaded or unloaded firearm at anytime during the COF, as long as it is done safely. If the shooter broke the 180 in some manner other than directly reholstering, then there would be a DQ. If the shooter reholsterd directly into the holster (didn't miss it somehow) then IMO they are good to go.

If the holster was legal at the begining of the COF, and absent some factual basis that shows it is now not legal, the act of reholstering is covered in 8.2.5 and the shooter is good to go.

[LPatterson]

Remember that during a course of fire, the gun while in the holster may not point uprange more than 3' from your feet. Next time you dry fire at home, when you bend over to pick up your mags, see where the muzzle points.

Which rule is this?

None that I know of....?

JT

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing.... 5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 3 feet from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed.

[JThompson]

I get that guys, but under 10.5.2 you can not break the 90 median except for the provisions of 10.5.6 and that rule only gives the 3 foot rule with regard to a "loaded" firearm. My point here is there is a conflict caused by the wording/word in 10.5.6. All they need to do is remove the word "loaded" and it would be less obtuse.

We are all about the letter of the rules and I feel this is somewhat contradictory.

Merry Christmas All!

JT

[LPatterson]

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

Here's the reason I started this little side trip. I feel that the two rules have some ambiguity in that the second rule is not consistent with the state of the firearm. I feel that the word "loaded" needs to be removed from 10.5.6 to maintain consistency with 10.5.2.

Why would you have, "loaded or unloaded" in the first and only "loaded" in the second? The way the rule is written it would seem to imply that if a gun was unloaded, the 3 foot rule does not apply, or that it only applies to a "loaded firearm. Technically, this would mean that you could only take the 3 foot exemption if your handgun was loaded at the time. If the gun was unloaded then you would be DQed per 10.5.6 I know very well this was not the intent of the rule, but it is the letter.

That makes no sense to me and is why I wanted to get people thinking about it......

JT

Now I'm confused, I thought you were going to explain how during the COF 10.5.2 would cause a shooter who cleared and rendered safe their pistol and holstered but went back for the dropped ammo and while do so allowed the muzzle to point rearward beyond the 3" rule established in 5.2.7.3 to be DQed, i.e., loaded or unloaded. Whereas 10.5.6 is specificly covering what to do about a gun that is pointed rearward when it is loaded. Remember that for any DQ the appropriate rule number must be entered on the score sheet, which is the RO's responsibility not the RM. Failure to do so can be cause for a valid DQ to be rejected during arbitration.