Shotshell Reloading Query

[RaymondMillbrae]

Hey folks,

I have a question for yall.

I am reloading Layman 1oz slugs using Hodgdon Universal powder. (Remmy Premier STS hulls, WAA12F114 wads, and Win 209 primers).

I have Hodgdon data that places 26-grains of Universal powder for a 1325 FPS load.

I tamed it down a bit by reducing the powder to 25-grains. (24.7 grains is a 5% decrease).

I was wondering if it is OK to reduce it further, like to 24 grains. (24.05 is a 7.5% reduction in powder).

I remember reading somewhere that 5% should be the most you should reduce a known charge for a slug load.

Is this correct? Or will a 24-grain load be OK?

Just curious to hear a different opinion from shotshell reloaders.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Shotshell reloading is very different from pistol and rifle reloading. So if you are not a shotshell reloader with experience on this topic, please hold back your responses.

Edited December 20, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[RePete]

Ray:

If you haven't already got it, get the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual. It is the bible.

I'm not at home so I can't check my book, and this isn't my computer, but I would stop before seeing what Lyman says.

Reducing SG loads can produce bloopers - not a good thing.

Send me a PM reminding me to look into this.

[Chills1994]

This is where you need to go:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum....9d6bd6f85c0fde8

Register, login, and start your own thread in that very section by just doing a copy and paste of your OP here.

[Tom Freeman]

When I tried the Lyman 525 gn sabot slugs and decreased the powder too much the velocity ES went through the roof. You might want to try a different powder. Herco worked pretty well for me.

Now I just shoot B&P slugs and dont worry about it.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks, guys.

1) I do own the Lyman book, and it is great. As a matter of fact, now that I am thinking about it, I believe that is where I read the "not less that 5% powder reduction" rule.

2) I am also a member of SHOTGUNWORLD, but I chose to post here (and in a local shooters website) first...before going there. If I do not receive a good response, I will try them next.

3) In the end, I went with a 7.5% reduction in powder. (24 grains). This is as low as I will go...for now.

I did not get a chance to shoot the slugs yet (I had a USPSA match this Sunday morning), but I will give them a try on Monday or Tuesday.

I loaded-up 35 rounds with this powder load. I also appreciate the head's-up on the ES info. I will keep a look-out for that when testing.

More feedback later. (If yall are even interested).

In Christ: Raymond

Edited December 21, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[3GunF1Guy]

I tried a whole bunch of lyman slugs and I used the Herco data for mine. I could not get them to shoot accuratlt. I also used the WAA12F wads and they would not group as well as factory slugs. Let us know how they shoot for you. I would stay with the data that is in the book. All of the slug data is with very slow powder you would not want to drop the powder charge much due to the fact that you will drop the pressure and not get a full powder burn. Most shotgun loags are on the very bottom limit of the pressure curve as it is. If you drop the powder charge too much you don't get a full powder burn. I don't think you would get a blooper (unless you went way down) but you will wonder why the gun is so dirty, and you will get wild pressure variations with bad groups due to the speed variations. I have tried very light loads with reduced powder charges in my bird gun that I use for skeet and with 14gr of E3 behind 3/4 of an oz of shot is on the very limit of what will burn in a shotgun.

Scott

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks for the response.

Let me add a few things:

1) I was hoping that someone had already gone this route and produced a tested/verified low recoil load.

2) I have (on hand) 8-pounds of Hodgdon Universal powder that I purchased for this very purpose. I purchased this medium-speed burning powder to propell BOTH my low recoil 1 1/8oz, #7.5 shot, target loads - as well as my slug loads. (Both used for 3-gun competition).

3) I ended-up reducing the 525-grain Lyman slug load posted in the 5th Edition Lyman book by 5% (25 grains)...and then took it one step further and reduced it 7.5%. (24-grains of powder).

I just got back from the indoor range a few minutes ago, and I can say that this load was very successful. Since both my loads (target and slug) were the same weight, I loaded half-and-half in the magazine tube to see if I could tell the difference. (The target loads of #7.5 shot were rated at 1250 FPS).

Wow...they both had the same felt recoil.

The indoor range only went to 20-yards, but my groups were a solid 3" to 4"inches from a standing, unsupported, position. (But I was "bull doo-dooing" with my buddy and not 100% focused on my shooting).

I think I was successful in this endeavor.

I cannot positively say if this load would be reliable in a semi-auto shotgun, as I was using a Remmy 870P. But the next time I go to the outdoor action range, the load will be tested on a few different semi-autos to test for reliability. They will also be chronographed for speed.

Anyhoo...if anyone has any KNOWN low recoil load data for Lyman 525-grain slugs, please share it with us.

Thank you.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited December 23, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[sargenv]

Are you buying those beasties or casting them yourself?

What, if anything, are you saving by loading them yourself over factory?

If I wasn't going on vacation, I might be more helpful..

Edited December 23, 2009 by sargenv

[RaymondMillbrae]

I am purchasing the slugs.

I have not worked-out the cost savings yet...but I got around 1000 of the Lyman slugs a while ago for around .30 cents each, shipped.

If you are the same Sargenv (Vince-a-Roonie) from Calguns...you have been super helpful so far!!

In Christ: Raymond

UPDATE: I just worked it out, and I am paying .40 cents for each completed Lyman slug shotshell.

Edited December 23, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[3GunF1Guy]

If you want low recoil data all you need is the data for shot. Use the 1 1/4 oz shot data and you will be almost dead on. Just find some shot data that uses the WAAF1 wad and drop the slug into the wad instead of the shot. The gun and load can not tell the diffrence between 525 grains of shot and 525 grains of slug.

And yes I have tried this and it works. I got this from Ballistics Products. If you want, get their slug manual and yoiu will gain a wealth of knowlage.

Scott

[RaymondMillbrae]

Excellent tip, Scott.

Kudos to you for that one!!!

You are the second person who mentioned this manual to me...so I will be looking for it in a moment.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Ballistic Products said that the newest revision will be completed in early 2010, and will be shipped at that time. I ordered it and am waiting for it. Thanks again.

Edited December 23, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[Intel6]

If you want low recoil data all you need is the data for shot. Use the 1 1/4 oz shot data and you will be almost dead on. Just find some shot data that uses the WAAF1 wad and drop the slug into the wad instead of the shot. The gun and load can not tell the diffrence between 525 grains of shot and 525 grains of slug.

And yes I have tried this and it works. I got this from Ballistics Products. If you want, get their slug manual and yoiu will gain a wealth of knowlage.

Scott

That is basically what I did for loading my cast slugs and buck reduced recoil loads. I use the data for faster burning powders (I like WST) and just change out the wads to ensure the payload colum is the same height. This way when you are working with reduced velocities, you are getting a cleaner burn and not all the left over junk from the slower powders.

Neal in AZ

[RaymondMillbrae]

What is the formula for converting ounces to grains, or grains to ounces?

If I have a 525-grain Lyman slug, is that EXACTLY a 1 1/4 ounce load, or is it a tad lighter or heavier?

And by the way, I went to the Lyman Shotshell Reloading book, looked-up 1 1/4oz loads, and found that I am perfectly on track when I reduced the Universal powder load to 25-grains, and then to 24-grains for my Lyman slugs.

It makes me feel even better after seeing it in print.

I feel better knowing that I can use the same powder for both my loads. (1 1/8oz, #7.5 shot, target...and my 525-grain Lyman sabots).

In Christ: Raymond

Edited December 24, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[mlmiller1]

There are 7000 grains in a pound. 1 1/4oz is @545gr so that is a wee bit less than that at 525. It is closer to 1 1/4 than 1 1/8th, though.

MLM

[RePete]

If you want low recoil data all you need is the data for shot. Use the 1 1/4 oz shot data and you will be almost dead on. Just find some shot data that uses the WAAF1 wad and drop the slug into the wad instead of the shot. The gun and load can not tell the diffrence between 525 grains of shot and 525 grains of slug.

And yes I have tried this and it works. I got this from Ballistics Products. If you want, get their slug manual and yoiu will gain a wealth of knowlage.

Scott

That is basically what I did for loading my cast slugs and buck reduced recoil loads. I use the data for faster burning powders (I like WST) and just change out the wads to ensure the payload colum is the same height. This way when you are working with reduced velocities, you are getting a cleaner burn and not all the left over junk from the slower powders.

Neal in AZ

That doesn't work always.

Shot is fluid and slugs are not.

Be careful this is bad advice.

[RaymondMillbrae]

QUOTE: "That doesn't work always. Shot is fluid and slugs are not. Be careful this is bad advice".

I also considered that the shot would shift and compact itself a bit more. (Because it has space/air in between each BB). But then again, whether it be shot or slug, they are both riding within the wad and not making contact with the inside of the barrel.

Also consider that both loads are about the same weight (the Lyman slug being a touch lighter), and the pressure has also been reduced by the lower powder charge.

And lastly...I shot it the other day, and it was pretty awesome.

Like I mentoned before, I will chrongraph the slugs, and photograph my groupings the next time out.

I still believe the information above is pretty solid, especially if you understand the correlation between the wad's payload colum, and the slug/shot# being loaded for each shot. (Did that make sense)? On top of that, like previously mentioned, the powder charge has also been reduced.

More feedback later.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited December 25, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[RaymondMillbrae]

I was doing a little number crunching, and thought yall would like to PHYSICALLY see some actual numbers.

I have also not chronographed the slugs yet (nor photographed the groups), but soon, folks...soon.

In Christ: Raymond

7000 grains = 1 pound

437.5 grains = 1 oz

492.2 grains = 1 1/8 oz

546.9 grains = 1 1/4 oz

Lyman Sabot Slugs = 525 grains...which is a touch LIGHTER than 1 1/4 oz loads of 546.9 grains.

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, folks,

this is not the last post...but it is ALMOST the last post.

I went to the indoor range last night to try out a few more shotshell reloads - and this time I brought my camera with me.

I was working on a few different things for multi-gun matches (pistol and shotgun), so I could not concentrate on my shotgun 100%. But let me say, the slugs reloads are pretty nice.

Below is a picture of my paper target at 25-yards. It will show my slug-zeroing process.

The 1st group was aimed at the circle on the far right. It shot a touch high and to the left - so I made an adjustment.

The 2nd group was shot at the circle on the far left, and I guess I over adjusted. So a further correction was made.

The last group was aimed at center-mass of the head - and it was still a touch to the left. The grouping was acceptable for the moment, as it will ultimately need to be zeroed at the 50-yard range for "true zero".

Let me also add a little tid-bit of information here:

1) The first group (3 shots) were shot slowly. But after I established that it was on paper, and the correction was made, the following shots (2nd group and 3rd group) were done standing, and at a rapid fire rate.

2) I know that I am shooting a pump, so low-recoil loads are not that huge a factor in controlling the flip to get back on target (because racking the shotty to get a new shell into the chamber moves the barrel pretty violently)...but the recoil-reduction was still very nice on the shoulder, and it really helps in controlling the "flinch factor".

3) The accuracy was very decent at 25-yard.

4) The last 2 shots on the far left circle were just for play.

Ultimately my shotgun will need to be zeroed with these slugs at 50-yards for me to be "match accurate" with 50 to 75 yards shots. But as it stands right now, I am a happy camper with these very controllable slug rounds.

I will post more feedback after a 50-yard zero.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited December 30, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[Intel6]

So what were the loads you were using?

Neal in AZ

[RaymondMillbrae]

Look up at post #1.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Also take into consideration that these were shot using a PUMP ACTION. Low recaoil loads may not always cycle properly on semi-auto shotties. But I will test this the next time I shoot my buddies Benelli M1.

Lyman 525-grain Sabot Slug

Remmy Premier STS Hulls

Hodgdon Universal Powder - 24-grains

Winchester W209 primers

WAA12F114 Wads

Edited December 30, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, folks,

I think I am going in a different direction now.

Click HERE to check out my new thread, as it may open a new topic of discussion.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited January 26, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae